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Green Knight
  
location:
San Jose, California
Gender: Male
 |  | Pics from a cave dive
< on 8/30/2010 10:50 PM >
|  | | | I didn't catch that cave diving thread until it got locked up because of the bickering masses. More pictures, less flaming.
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SirJinx
  
location:
Los Angeles Area
Gender: Male
| | Re: Pics from a cave dive
<Reply # 1 on 8/30/2010 11:14 PM >
| | | | Nice pics dude. Here's a picture of some gear that was left down in a cave during a recovery.
People are weird. |
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big dave
    
location:
SoCal
Gender: Male
| |  | Re: Pics from a cave dive
<Reply # 2 on 8/31/2010 1:31 AM >
| | | | Nice pics. Are those from a guided tour or something?
An armed society, is a polite society. So lets get to it! |
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SirJinx
location:
Los Angeles Area
Gender: Male
| | Re: Pics from a cave dive
<Reply # 3 on 8/31/2010 6:48 PM >
| | | | Regarding deep air dives, I spoke to three of my dive buddies and here's what they all had to say regarding deep dives, cave diving and other sorts of diving shenanigans. It's nice having diving friends.
1st Buddy (US Navy Diving Medical Officer)
I know two guys who I've seen do dives over 240 feet on air. One's old, the other young and both are stupid. The old guy did it several times over the course of 20+ years. They dive down, stay for about a minute, and come up.
Last time the young guy did this he almost died, and in fact was a miracle that he made it to the surface at all. Had to call the Coast Guard to chopper him out an he was unconscious and presumed to be dead very shortly.
Hal Watts and Brett Gilliam were/are famous for writing about and teaching this crazy deep air shit. A recreational diver trying to hit these depths is going to be dead.
Air (79/21) becomes mildly narcotic at about 150 feet due to the partial pressure of the nitrogen. At about 180 it is very debilitating for most people. I have used air to 220(under very close supervision) and do not remember the dive! I also had a dive team for support. Scared the shit out of me and I'd never do it again.
If you're an experienced diver, doing those depths, you should have been trained and already know that Heliox or Tri-mix is the way to go.
Here's what my other friend (PADI Divemaster) had to say about deep air dives:
On regular air he will most likely be dead at 242. The maximum depth you can go safely on regular air is 167 feet. Deeper has been done, but you put your life in god hands beyond that. There are stupid maverick deep air divers who try this shit all the time and many of them die.
Also, the question that could be posed is how big is his fucking tank. You need at least two tanks to sustain anything beyond a 5 min dive at 167 feet. That's why tri-mix is used. You also need special regulators, valves etc. For instance at 55 feet you will be lucky to get 20 min of bottom time, provided you do all your safety stops. At maximum depth you will need to do at least 3-4 safety stops ranging 5-10 min on your way up or you will bend (decompression sickness) for sure.
Lastly, my friend who is a scuba instructor chimed in today too:
Hey brother, how's it going. In regards to your question, depends... is he posting from the grave? if not, then he is full of shit.
You asked about my qualifications.
I have been a SCUBA instructor since 1995. I have several dive certifications, from recreational to instructor to technical to over head / cave. I have 5,000+ recreational dives and just short of 200 technical dives. I have been to 365 feet (open ocean) 4 times, and 200' in an over head environment once. I attended the US Navy Combat Diver. I have hit almost every major warm dive spot in the world.
Technical diving still scares me. It is very fucking easy to fuck up. I did all my technical dive training under Mark Elliot, who was the open ocean deep diving record holder for a while - 1017 feet if I remember correctly. Mark has forgotten more about diving than I will ever know.
He has also almost killed himself several times. Has spent months in decompression chambers. He has hyperbaric osteonecrosis from doing stupid shit.
It takes years and years of constant diving and practice to be safe enough to go beyond recreational dive limits. I'm not saying that people can't go beyond the 240 feet on air. There are guys that do it. I'm just saying that claims like this are always suspect when coming from recreational divers. The guys that are able to do this are a rare breed and many of them fuck themselves up and/or end up dying at some point.
I've heard many wild claims in my day, including guys who claim they are doing 300-450 feet 100's of times. Nobody is doing that on a regular basis and most of these divers making these claims are just making stuff up. At those depths on air, there is a good chance of death, instant pulmonary and neurological 02 toxicity.
I have personally known guys who have pushed the 200+ foot envelope on air and passed out, have memory problems and/or died. I have come close to those depths on air and experienced the blackout periods as well. That's why any diver worth his weight knows better than to tempt fate.
People who read too many books often use these books to back up their outrageous claims, not realizing that those books are often written by people that are already making suspect claims.
[last edit 8/31/2010 10:42 PM by SirJinx - edited 3 times]
People are weird. |
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SirJinx
location:
Los Angeles Area
Gender: Male
| | Re: Pics from a cave dive
<Reply # 4 on 8/31/2010 11:23 PM >
| | | | More gold from my US Navy Dive buddy:
"
In addition to the narcotic effect of the nitrogen at 8.25 ATA(240 feet), the oxygen will also become CNS toxic( partial pressure of 1.6) which is the max threshold and in excess of the max threshold if the dive is particularly cold or strenuous.
1.6 is the safety threshold for recreational and technical diving, you can go higher - everyone has a different limit so its set at 1.6 to ensure everyone is safe. US Navy divers can train up to 2.0, but under intense supervision and not for long.
What people fail to realize is how dive tables and gas loading thresholds are reached. These values were developed on Navy divers: Young, excellently medically screened, extremely fit. Basically guys who do this daily and are the best of the best in top physical condition.
Take the value that you get from that and cut it in 1/3 to 1/2 for the average recreational diver: out of shape, fat, unknown medical conditions, minimally trained, etc.
Short answer: Air at that depth the nitrogen would cause you to act retarded and perhaps black out or the high oxygen concentration might cause you to have a seizure. Either way you are fucked and should have used Tri-mix!
There are dudes like the Hell divers who do this kind of crazy shit all the time, so I'm not saying it's impossible. There are crazy divers who like to push the absolute limits. With enough time, they always end up dead or with serious health issues.
"
And one more response from my good friend Jack, the SCUBA instructor:
"Once the partial pressure of oxygen exceeds 1.4 you start to have problems. you can go to 1.6 when you are rest, but anything over 1.6 is a fast road to oxygen toxicity.
218-220 feet is usually considered the limit for air diving. 242 feet is very dangerous and very irresponsible on air.
I dive on mixed gas anytime I exceed 185 ft.
It's very likely he is full of shit.
240 on air would also nitrogen narc you off your ass - to the point of you being really unsafe. I don't want to get into a long discussion on dive physics but chances are he is full of shit.
Technical diving straight kills people dead. You get a lot of dumb asses who try to go super deep on air in recreational gear.
I used to do my technical instructor training under Mark Elliot. He used to supplement his lifestyle doing recovery diving of the bodies of such dumb asses. I have done 3 recoveries with him of bodies - right around 155 - 165 feet people start killing themselves.
Unless this guy is a 15 year veteran, 240 on air in recreational gear is 99% bullshit. The other 1% accounting for absolute stupidity and sheer luck."
[last edit 8/31/2010 11:57 PM by SirJinx - edited 3 times]
People are weird. |
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Vectored Approach
 
location:
Morgan Hill, CA
Gender: Male
| | Re: Pics from a cave dive
<Reply # 5 on 8/31/2010 11:53 PM >
| | | | Posted by Green Knight
More pictures, less flaming.
|
More pictures, same flaming.
Honesty may be the best policy, but it's important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy. -George Carlin (1937 - 2008) |
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Dav
location:
Los Angeles, CA
Gender: Male
Like fun, but different.
| |  |  | | Re: Pics from a cave dive
<Reply # 6 on 9/1/2010 12:08 AM >
| | | | Jinx. You're assuming a 242ft ocean dive. I don't dive, but giving the benefit of the doubt here...
Altitude - Ratio of pressure at altitude
(feet) - to pressure at sea level
0000 - 1.000
1000 - 0.964
2000 - 0.930
3000 - 0.896
4000 - 0.864
5000 - 0.832
6000 - 0.801
7000 - 0.772
8000 - 0.743
One atmosphere of pressure occurs in approximately 33 feet of sea water.
One atmosphere of pressure occurs in approximately 34 feet of fresh water.
So a 6000ft freshwater dive is like 188ft. *shrug*
[last edit 9/1/2010 12:14 AM by Dav - edited 2 times]
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bfinan0
location:
Rochester, NY
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Pics from a cave dive
<Reply # 7 on 9/1/2010 12:20 AM >
| | | | Posted by Dav
Altitude - Ratio of pressure at altitude
(feet) - to pressure at sea level
5000 - 0.832
6000 - 0.801
One atmosphere of pressure occurs in approximately 33 feet of sea water.
One atmosphere of pressure occurs in approximately 34 feet of fresh water.
So a 6000ft freshwater dive is like 188ft. *shrug*
|
This is altitude above sea level. For example, on top of Haystack Mt, NY (4960') the air pressure is 5/6 what it would be 40 miles away in Plattsburg (44').
So 6000 feet deep in freshwater (even assuming a start at 6000' altitude) would still just be 33/34 the pressure of 6000 feet of seawater, minus 0.199atm for the higher air altitude. Which is like 5819 feet of seawater, and will still crush you flat.
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Dav
location:
Los Angeles, CA
Gender: Male
Like fun, but different.
| | | | | Re: Pics from a cave dive
<Reply # 8 on 9/1/2010 12:27 AM >
| | | | Posted by bfinan0
Which is like 5819 feet of seawater, and will still crush you flat.
|
LOL! Funny mental image.
I assume you're joking, but for clarification, I meant "a 242 dive, 6242ft above sea level"
(But I do understand that you're saying that my computations are still wrong, that's cool, it's been a long time since I took fluids).
(Oh god, why am I even in this thread.)
[last edit 9/1/2010 12:32 AM by Dav - edited 3 times]
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bfinan0
location:
Rochester, NY
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Pics from a cave dive
<Reply # 9 on 9/1/2010 1:03 AM >
| | | | Posted by Dav
I assume you're joking, but for clarification, I meant "a 242 dive, 6242ft above sea level"
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Which is much more reasonable, although still deep.
it's been a long time since I took fluids).
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I'm taking fluids this semester. Again.
To clarify further, I have only been scuba diving once, in freshwater, to a responsible depth of 11 feet. Which is like 9¾ feet of seawater.
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Therrin
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
North of Chicago, IL
Gender: Male
*Therrin puts on the penguin-suit
| | | Re: Pics from a cave dive
<Reply # 10 on 9/1/2010 8:20 AM >
| | | | SirJinx writes:
| Also, the question that could be posed is how big is his fucking tank. You need at least two tanks to sustain anything beyond a 5 min dive at 167 feet. That's why tri-mix is used. You also need special regulators, valves etc. For instance at 55 feet you will be lucky to get 20 min of bottom time, provided you do all your safety stops. At maximum depth you will need to do at least 3-4 safety stops ranging 5-10 min on your way up or you will bend (decompression sickness) for sure. |
Anyone who dives will recognize this for the total bullshit it is.
Trimix doesnt give you any "more" gas, its not 3 tanks dude, its a mixture of air that's put into a regular cylinder. Atmospheric pressure is at a rate of 14.7psi +14.7psi per every 33.3ft underwater you go. 55 ft is slightly less than 2atm underwater (3ata total). That doesn't change because you're using trimix.
You obviously don't dive, as you haven't mentioned cylinder size AT ALL, and it's absolutely important here, it matters if you're using a 15cuft, 30cuft, 50cuft, 80cuft, 100cuft, or 120cuft. Aluminum 80's being pretty much the standard these days, @ 3000psi. I use HP steel 100s and 120, @ 3500psi.
How you can assume anyone's dive time at a given depth without knowing their cylinder size or consumption rate??????
And what's this about "all your saftey stops" at a total dive depth of 55ft for 20 mins??? With that dive profile the only "saftey stop" would be at 15ft and its only RECOMMENDED, not required. You'll bend "for sure" if you don't do multiple saftey stops, from FIFTY FIVE FEET, having only been there for 20 mins???? SERIOUSLY?????
**EDIT**
| 240 on air would also nitrogen narc you off your ass - to the point of you being really unsafe. I don't want to get into a long discussion on dive physics but chances are he is full of shit. |
You obviously haven't actually read anything I've said.
I didn't just pop in the water at random and drop to 242ft. There's a method for planning deep dives. You successively dive to specific limits, day after day after day. Each day you push the limit a little further. Your body learns to deal with narcosis, and you aren't affected as greatly as you used to be. (it's called "TOLERANCE", just like any regular drug).
You use a dive slate with simple math equations on it, and you work them out while hanging at different depths to test your mental acuity while narc'd.
You're trying to equate a maximum limit I've dove to under specific circumstances, with any n00b jumping in the water and dropping to 242ft; and that's akin to comparing apples and oranges. It's just not the same thing.
YOUR STORIES ARE BASED ON BULLSHIT. I HAVE BACKED UP EVERYTHING I'VE SAID IN DETAIL. YOU ASSUME THINGS, DON'T ASK QUESTIONS, AND WHAT YOU WRITE IS UTTER NONSENSE.
[last edit 9/1/2010 9:34 AM by Therrin - edited 1 times]
Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) |
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Ikky
location:
In Transit
^ROLAND LOOK HERE^
| | Re: Pics from a cave dive
<Reply # 11 on 9/1/2010 8:33 AM >
| | | | Therrin, I agree with everyone on everything here. All your claims are bullshit and your certifications don't matter. In fact, they don't matter so much I'm going to ignore all the valuable, detailed, informative information you've posted so far. My rebuttal will be these friends I have. Yeah, I got friends, and they are totally divers. I know because I asked them. One's a divemaster who lives out in Italy. He drives out to the ocean in a ferrari because he's that rich. Anyhow he says your dumb and a lier because you dove so much that it should have killed a person who doesn't know what he's doing. I am also going to trust everything my friend says and not you because he uses a lot of technical terms and buzzwords and sounds like he knows what you are talking about
However, I'm going to make it so that if you try to insult me you look like an asshole even though I'm a complete douchebag who just wants to get his word in and sound smart by wishing you very much luck and trying to sound as sincere as possible. Good luck Therrin and bring me a souvenir! 
I make love the same way I resolve arguments. With my fists. |
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Therrin
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
North of Chicago, IL
Gender: Male
*Therrin puts on the penguin-suit
| | | Re: Pics from a cave dive
<Reply # 12 on 9/1/2010 8:39 AM >
| | | | Btw, I know you other two mean well (bfinan0 & Dav), but you're muddling up the waters a bit. Dav is talking 6000' as a dive elevation ABOVE sea level.
And Bfinan0, yes, at a small depth like 10 feet, the difference @ 6000ft elevation would only be a compensated dive of 12 feet. Not that much.
However, a 100ft dive @ sea level is equiv to a 124ft dive @ 6000ft. The curve becomes more pronounced the further you take it. And a 100ft dive is not unimaginable whatsoever, so in those terms it'd make quite a difference.
Thankfully, the main and redundant dive computing systems take dive elevation into consideration and compute your gas clocks accordingly. =D
I'm still LOL'ing hardcore at SirJinx's last couple posts. He's in WAY over his head here. And if he's quoting other people, then they're idiots.
Gas consumption = SAC x time x ((Depth/33)+1)
So if you dove to 55ft for 20 mins, with a nominal SAC of 0.705, you'd have only consumed 37.6cuft of air.
Considering that "most" recreational divers use Aluminum 80's, that'd leave you with 42.4cuft of air left!!!
According to regular "no decrompression" recreational dive tables,
A Dive to 60 ft (more than you specified) for 20 mins, would give you a class "E" nitrogen clock. And actually, according to the RECREATIONAL TABLES, you could dive to 60 ft for 60 mins, without requiring any deco stops on the way up whatsoever.
We'll say your dive to 60ft was for 40mins. This gives you time to ascend and take an OPTIONAL saftey stop at 15 ft for 10 mins, if you CHOOSE to.
60ft for 40 mins makes you a class "G" for your nitrogen clock.
Then you take a mere 1 hour surface interval, which makes you a class "F" on your nitrogen glock, then you make a repetitive dive BACK to 60ft. At this point your RNT (residual nitrogen time) is 36. So...
With those stat's you could stay back down at 60ft for up to but not exceding 24 more minutes. WITHOUT REQUIRING A DECO STOP.
Once more, to recap, that's:
A dive to 60ft for 40 mins.
A one hour surface interval.
A dive back to 60ft for up to 24 mins.
ALL WITHOUT REQUIRING ANY DECO STOP, as per regular recreational dive tables.
Note: a dive to 60ft for 40 mins with an average SAC of .705 would use up roughly 79.47cuft of air. That's technically doable with a 80cuft cylinder, but only on paper. In reality you would use at least a 100cuft cylinder for that specific dive; or dual 80's, or a primary cylinder with a pony bottle, or a 120, or whatever.
But in your "55ft for 20mins" scenario, given normal consumption rates, as mentioned previously your 80cuft cylinder would still be over half-full, and your nitrogen clock would have 40 mins remaining on it at that depth, with NO decompression necessary.
Cheers =)
_____________________
[last edit 9/1/2010 9:30 AM by Therrin - edited 2 times]
Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) |
|
Therrin
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
North of Chicago, IL
Gender: Male
*Therrin puts on the penguin-suit
| | | Re: Pics from a cave dive
<Reply # 13 on 9/1/2010 12:25 PM >
| | | | | Also, the question that could be posed is how big is his fucking tank. You need at least two tanks to sustain anything beyond a 5 min dive at 167 feet. That's why tri-mix is used. |
I just ran your 165ft dive through my dive planning software for deco dives.
DIVE PLAN
Varying Permeability Model algorithms
Elevation = 0ft
Conservatism = + 2
Mins Total
Dec to 165ft (3) Air 50ft/min descent.
Level 165ft 6:42 (10) Air 1.26 ppO2, 165ft ead
Asc to 50ft (13) Air -30ft/min ascent.
Stop at 50ft 1:10 (15) Air 0.53 ppO2, 50ft ead
Stop at 40ft 1:00 (16) Air 0.46 ppO2, 40ft ead
Stop at 30ft 2:00 (18) Air 0.40 ppO2, 30ft ead
Stop at 20ft 4:00 (22) Air 0.34 ppO2, 20ft ead
Stop at 10ft 5:00 (27) Air 0.27 ppO2, 10ft ead
Surface (27) Air -30ft/min ascent.
Off gassing starts at 88ft
OTU's this dive: 15
CNS Total: 5.7%
61.3 cu ft Air
61.3 cu ft TOTAL
You could spend 3:18 mins getting down to 165ft, spend 6:42 mins there, for an adjusted bottom time of 10 mins. spend 3 mins getting back up to 50ft, deco for 1 min 10 seconds, then move up to 40ft, etc etc till you get to your 10ft stop for 5 mins, to the surface. Total dive time 27 minutes. Total air consumption (at my SAC) 61.3cuft.
Easily managed with my high pressure 100cuft or 120cuft cylinder, with almost a 50% reserve volume. In fact, you could do it with an Alum80 and still have reserve time.
And, my PP/02 would have only reached 1.26 on my O2 clock.
Run these numbers and dive plan by your buddy, THEN see what he has to say about it. It's easy to say something without anything to back it up. But when you're backing it by hard mathematics, and the other guy is saying "well this guy I know said..." =)
**EDIT**
I've a feeling most of this is going past you and/or you won't actually read it. So... I'm done here.
My other guess is that you didn't relay ANY of my dive qualifications to these "people".
[last edit 9/1/2010 12:28 PM by Therrin - edited 1 times]
Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) |
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SirJinx
location:
Los Angeles Area
Gender: Male
| | Re: Pics from a cave dive
<Reply # 14 on 9/1/2010 6:16 PM >
| | | | Hey dude, those aren't my words. I never claimed to be a diver. Those are the words of my three trained diver buddies. All I told them was that there's a pro diver on some forums I'm on who is claiming that he does 242 feet on air in recreational gear.
I will run your answers by them and see what they have to say. But the thing I noticed most about your responses is that you're not responding directly about their stuff about 242 feet in recreational gear. You're throwing out stuff like 60 feet, 165 feet, etc. and talking about timetables.
You haven't even touched on your claim of 242 feet on regular air, except to say that you did it a little at a time and built up some kind of immunity to Nitro Narc. So apparently, now you are able to change your body physiology. I'll get back to you on this shortly.
[last edit 9/1/2010 6:48 PM by SirJinx - edited 3 times]
People are weird. |
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Vectored Approach
location:
Morgan Hill, CA
Gender: Male
| | Re: Pics from a cave dive
<Reply # 15 on 9/1/2010 7:03 PM >
| | | | Posted by Therrin
You could spend 3:18 mins getting down to 165ft, spend 6:42 mins there, for an adjusted bottom time of 10 mins.
|
10 minutes? Not much time to scout any tunnels (of course you're probably talking about the first exploratory dive). What do the numbers look like if you're down for half an hour or more? How long would it take you to explore a level, say for example if you were to locate a tunnel at 80' down, but the tunnel is 1200' long? How much tunnel can you explore on the tanks you have available, at various depths, and still have air available for decompression?
Honesty may be the best policy, but it's important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy. -George Carlin (1937 - 2008) |
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dsankt
location:
live and in the fresh
| | | | Re: Pics from a cave dive
<Reply # 16 on 9/1/2010 7:30 PM >
| | | | 
Obligatory.
sleepycity.net: watch out for the third rail baby, that shit is high voltage. urbex and urban exploration photography |
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Therrin
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
North of Chicago, IL
Gender: Male
*Therrin puts on the penguin-suit
| | | Re: Pics from a cave dive
<Reply # 17 on 9/1/2010 7:52 PM >
| | | | VectoredApproach:
| 10 minutes? Not much time to scout any tunnels (of course you're probably talking about the first exploratory dive). |
Actually, I was discussing 165ft as a limit that SirJinx had thrown out, for what reason I'm still not quite sure, as his info wasn't accurate on it.
| What do the numbers look like if you're down for half an hour or more? |
I'm guessing you mean 30 mins at 165'?? Again, I wouldn't spend that much time at that depth, and especially not in the mine for any reason. I think that's a bit too far for my first go in the mine diving, even though the vertical shaft is NOT technically an "overhead environment". An initial recon dive is supposed to just be checking out what the conditions are basically. See what I see, not hang around and look at it.
But for the sake of it, here are the numbers for 30mins @ 165'
Decompression model: VPM - B
DIVE PLAN
Surface interval = 1 day 0 hr 0 min.
Elevation = 0ft
Conservatism = + 3
Dec to 165ft (2:45) Air 60ft/min descent.
Level 165ft 27:15 (30:00) Air 1.26 ppO2, 165ft ead
Asc to 100ft (32:10) Air -30ft/min ascent.
Stop at 90ft 1:40 (33:50) Air 0.78 ppO2, 90ft ead
Stop at 80ft 2:40 (36:30) Air 0.72 ppO2, 80ft ead
Stop at 70ft 3:00 (39:30) Air 0.65 ppO2, 70ft ead
Stop at 60ft 4:50 (44:20) Air 0.59 ppO2, 60ft ead
Stop at 50ft 5:40 (50:00) Air 0.53 ppO2, 50ft ead
Stop at 40ft 9:00 (59:00) Air 0.46 ppO2, 40ft ead
Stop at 30ft 13:00 (72:00) Air 0.40 ppO2, 30ft ead
Stop at 20ft 20:30 (92:30) Air 0.34 ppO2, 20ft ead
Stop at 10ft 36:40 (129:10) Air 0.27 ppO2, 10ft ead
Surface (129:30) Air -30ft/min ascent.
Off gassing starts at 121.3ft
OTU's this dive: 48
CNS Total: 18.4%
235.8 cu ft Air
235.8 cu ft TOTAL
So you're basically talkin doubles @ 120cuft each; and then either a third deco bottle, or deco bottles alread pre-set on a deco line (which is how I'd set it up, if for some reason I had to spend 30 mins at 165')
| How long would it take you to explore a level, say for example if you were to locate a tunnel at 80' down, but the tunnel is 1200' long? |
That's really impossible to say. 80' down, if I were diving a no-deco plan, would give me 40 mins. And that means TOTAL dive time of 40 mins, including ascent back to the surface. I factor in buffer time for accidents/unforseen problems, but that has to do with size of my air supply and backup gear.
40 mins @ 80ft, I'd use up about 77cuft of air. So diving with a HP 100cuft cylinder would give me about a 1/4 cylinder reserve.
| How much tunnel can you explore on the tanks you have available, at various depths, and still have air available for decompression? |
This is like saying "how close can you get to texas, driving from california, if you drive while set at varying different speed levels, and still have enough gas to get back home, using your reserve tank but not getting a fillup"
Answer : Impossible to say. I'd have to know exactly what depths I was going to be at, and how long I was going to be at them, and what my surface interval was between cylinder changes; before I could give you an answer.
The really cool part is that with today's modern dive computers, you don't have to "plan a dive and dive a plan" anymore. Instead of diving purely by tables, using computers allows the gradient of your dive to be taken into consideration, allowing the calculation of the factors present during your dive to be spread with precise detail.
The result of this is that you can dive "as you go along" and maintain constant status of how much air you have left, what your gas clocks are, if you'll need to deco, and if so whether you'll have enough air for it... it will alert you before you get to the point of not being able to get back out with what you've got left. So that's all really pretty cool, and a huge advantage over diving purely by tables.
The data I've put by deco diving plans are purely by "tables" (not physical tables, but algorithmic ones). So it's the "math" of the dive. The actual dive will allow you to get very close to that profile using a computer to fine-check your plan. Or it will allow you to use your plan as a guideline for the outter-limit of the dive you're making.
SirJinx:
| All I told them was that there's a pro diver on some forums I'm on who is claiming that he does 242 feet on air in recreational gear. |
Dude wth?? I never said I use recreational gear. Using "air" instead of trimix doesn't make it non-technical. Almost everything great that's been done in scuba was done for the first several decades on regular air. It didn't make the dives any less technical. I did my 242ft dive 8 years ago, and I only did it ONCE to that depth. I've already explained that.
If that's what you told the guy then you're lying to him, and not from me not having given the proper details.
I use a tech b/c & bladder system, HP steel cylinders (but I still have several 80's, used "just for fun" or for staged deco bottles), and other associated tech gear depending on what I'm doing. I'm not sure how you figured i was using "recreational gear"???
I gave the data for 165ft and 55ft specifically because of the false data you were throwing out there about those two levels. If you wanted my data for 242ft all you had to do was ASK...not insinuate that I wasn't mentioning it for some reason. Have you noticed that up till now you haven't been asking questions? You've been making unwarranted assumptions that I've been proving wrong one by one. If you'd just ask questions it'd be alot easier.
Also, I never equated any depth numbers to what I was planning for the mine dive. I'm pretty sure my trial run limit will be around 150ft (adjusted) or so. Up till now I'd only stated what I've done in the past, and what my capabilities are.
| and built up some kind of immunity to Nitro Narc. So apparently, now you are able to change your body physiology. |
That's why it takes several weeks of diving to successively lower depths. You build up to it.
Nitrogen acts on your body like a drug.
What happens when you drink a six pack of beer a night for 5 nights? 10 nights? 20 nights? 28 nights? Does the 6 pack still hit you as hard after the first week of doing it every day? After a couple weeks, what is the way you feel with it in comparison towards the way it made you feel the FIRST night?
Yes, your body learns to accept something and deal with it. This concept is NOT a new thing. Try not to sound so skeptical about it.
**EDIT**
I just thought to add, for saftey's sake: some of the rate number's I've quoted use a median SAC (surface air consumption) rate as a kind of constant, and other's are calculated using *my* SAC. Nothing I've posted here should be used for anyone to plan their own dive off of.
Air consumption rates are much higher for diving n00bz, though they also fluctuate with trained divers. Things like nervousness, excitement, hard work, & fear can greatly effect your air consumption rates. I also build buffer's into most of my calculations. DIVE AT YOUR OWN RISK & DO YOUR OWN PLANNING!
[last edit 9/1/2010 8:11 PM by Therrin - edited 1 times]
Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) |
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SirJinx
location:
Los Angeles Area
Gender: Male
| | Re: Pics from a cave dive
<Reply # 18 on 9/1/2010 9:04 PM >
| | | | Answer from my Navy buddy...
I'm not going to get into the math on this, just make a general response to his initial claim of building up tolerance and trying to achieve deep dives on air. I'm going on the original claim of 242 on air and the claim of nitro tolerance.
The one thing I will say about software is that while it's a helpful tool, it's not without flaws. It's supposed to give you "general guidelines" but nobody is supposed to take these charts as gospel. As anyone will tell you, it depends on the individual, conditions and their experience. In technical diving, something as small as cold water can really affect the dive. Common sense trumps computer simulations.
In any dive, you always expect to err on the side of safety, especially on a technical dive. Doing a quick, head-first descent and then surfacing quickly is a sure way to get bent. Doing an overhead and have one little thing go wrong could be a nightmare. The thing that bothers me most is what appears to be his attitude regarding stops. Even in a no-stop dive, most divers will have at least a 3 to 5 minute stop just for safety purposes. It has nothing to do with being macho and more to do with just being smart. Most divers will err on the side of caution because it's not worth the risk, especially if you're diving deep on air.
It's not like wearing a seatbelt vs. not wearing a seatbelt. A better comparison would be somebody using an old Volkswagen Beetle with bald tires to try to cross an unpaved dirt road in Death Valley mid-summer when it's 115 every day when they have a better option to take a 4x4 with brand new offroad tires. You pick the right tool for the right job. Any experienced diver would go with mix off the bat if they knew they were diving to 200 feet +.
If he was working in a dive shop, it would be like you working at a 4x4 dealership, but choosing to take a Ford Pinto into Death Valley to flex your bravado. Does that sound smart or stupid? I'm sure there are people that like to push limits and do indeed drive their Ford Pintos across Death Valley, maybe there's something called the "Death Valley Pinto Races" that I don't know about. But I don't think you or I or anybody else would applaud their efforts as being very smart. It's just stupid behavior and doesn't sound like something a dive expert would or rather should take part in.
Many experience narc'ing in as little as 80 feet and some don't feel it until 150 feet, but the range is somewhere between there with every extra 10 feet just adding to the effects. Once you hit that level (whatever it may be), it just keeps getting worse the deeper you go. Sometimes it comes on slowly and is just like a mild buzz. Sometimes it hits you like a brick wall and panic just sets in. It can range from everything from a drunk effect, to passing out completely, to not remembering shit and not being able to function without realizing it, to instant death. Many times you can narc out without realizing it. There have been recorded observations of people trying to give their mouthpiece to a fish right before their body went limp. In short, it can make you batshit crazy.
Most guys who are able to do extreme depths already have a high tolerance from the start, they don't build it up over the course of a few months by going a little deeper each time. If a diver is doing that, I would say his IQ is dropping every time he goes a little deeper.
A big misconception about nitrogen narcosis is that it's like becoming tolerant of alcohol, similar to the way the more you drink, the more immune you are to the effects of being drunk. The problem with this argument is that your liver can be tolerant of alcohol because it can work harder to break it down. Nitrogen cannot be broken down in the body the way alcohol can. We have no internal mechanism that can work harder to remove it from our blood in the way our liver can work harder to scrub alcohol.
Some are able to withstand narcosis better than some others but it doesn't mean they aren't narc'd, it just means they are used to feeling disoriented. It also doesn't make them Superman as these type of people die even at shallower depths. You might be able to get an extra 20 feet depending on your health and what you ate, but you're not going to be able to push an extra 120 feet if you're not already built that way. I'd dare say that your tolerance actually is reduced the more you push the depths due to the damage it does to your body. In short, sounds like bullshit.
At 240 feet his blood would look something like pink foam unless he was one of the very rare individuals that do this regularly. There are people going 250-350 feet on air. The people who have done this are world class divers with 20+ years experience and authoritative experts on the subject of deep diving. A dive shop worker making this claim is reminiscent of runners who claim they do 4 minute miles. While a 4 minute mile isn't impossible, you have to understand that it's a rare breed that is in the type of top physical shape to do this. Same goes with deep air divers. I'm sorry but it just seems like more bullshit.
If this guy was working at a dive shop taking these kinds of risks (not taking recommended deco stops, diving with air to over 200 feet) he's a liability to everyone around him. I would recommend anyone interested in diving stay far away from him or he's going to get himself or another person killed one day because he doesn't appear to be a person who puts safety first. If he's really doing bullshit like this, seems like a guy with something to prove to everyone. I'd hate to be around him when he proves his stupidity. The fucked up thing is that when something does go wrong one day, he's going to put the recovery team in danger by making them recover his body. Selfish if you ask me.
[last edit 9/1/2010 9:15 PM by SirJinx - edited 1 times]
People are weird. |
|
SirJinx
location:
Los Angeles Area
Gender: Male
| | Re: Pics from a cave dive
<Reply # 19 on 9/1/2010 9:26 PM >
| | | | Hey Therrin. If you did 242 on air, more power to you. I think you're crazy and putting your life at risk if you're really doing stuff like that. But I'll step aside and let you do your thing. As you said earlier, it's your life and your risk. The thing is dude, I don't doubt you dive. But I was simply calling b.s. on your claims such as:
I did my 242ft dive 8 years ago, and I only did it ONCE to that depth. I've already explained that.
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Are you 40 years old? I think you're closer to 25? 26? maybe 27? well, just do the math. You were so advanced at age 18 that you were able to do a 240+ foot technical dive at age 17-18? You had that much experience under your belt by then?
I'll kindly step back from this and let you do your thing. Despite all of your claims, I truly hope you don't die in there and wish you luck on the mining dive. I never claimed you weren't a diver by the way or that you haven't dived in certain places. I only said that your other claims were suspect and seemed like grandstanding.
When you post pics I will congratulate you. Good luck man. Good luck to anyone going along to help.
Peace.
[last edit 9/1/2010 10:45 PM by SirJinx - edited 2 times]
People are weird. |
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