|
Air
      
location:
Canada
 |  | Re: "Take only pictures, leave only footprints."
<Reply # 40 on 12/11/2007 7:19 PM >
|  | | | Posted by LunarLumen
I've easily stopped exploring with some who I have known vandalized in the past, or have said they've done it. I don't need them, nor do I need the added pressure of looking over my shoulder for the police just because I'm exploring with an idiot. Doing so takes away the enjoyment of exploring.
|
I know about this from personal experience. You certainly don't need someone to babysit when you go somewhere to 'splore. That's not say anything of stupid prankers who do things like pull alarms, fire off extinguishers, or walking around with a giant torch in a secure building.
"The extraordinary beauty of things that fail." - Heinrich von Kleist |
|
nomeus
 
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
FLA
Gender: Male
www.FLURBEX.com
| |  |  |  | Re: "Take only pictures, leave only footprints."
<Reply # 41 on 12/11/2007 7:19 PM >
| | | | Posted by LunarLumen
I agree!
So what is the big deal about writing on a blank chalkboard, notebook, dusty table or floor, wall (vandalism), window (vandalism), etc. The big deal is that next time you or another UE buddy shows up, the place will be locked up tighter, and security personnel will be looking out for you. I agree with Air 33 on this.
What makes us so special that we can write, erase, alter, or destroy an urban site, or erase the words and ideas left behind by those associated with the site? Why not just enjoy a site just with our eyes and presence? I lose no sleep over hearing that police arrested "so and so" for vandalising an abandoned site or location. Good, let them leave a postcard that they visited the local jail if they are so inclined to write/alter something.
I've easily stopped exploring with some who I have known vandalized in the past, or have said they've done it. I don't need them, nor do I need the added pressure of looking over my shoulder for the police just because I'm exploring with an idiot. Doing so takes away the enjoyment of exploring.
|
look at the postive...if security gets tighter and you manage to get by, you just leveled up your own skills wouldnt you say??
www.terraincognito.com
|
|
micro
Gender: Male
Slowly I turned
| | Re: "Take only pictures, leave only footprints."
<Reply # 42 on 12/11/2007 7:33 PM >
| | | | Posted by yokes
There is also some value is putting forth the front that the "ethics" are more prevalent than it might otherwise be.
|
You're right. It makes for good PR because it puts forth an image of urban explorers being more than just trespassers, thieves or vandals. Kinda like when we tell people that we're not just trespassing, we're "documenting buildings."
|
|
kowalski
 
| | Re: "Take only pictures, leave only footprints."
<Reply # 43 on 12/11/2007 7:42 PM >
| | | | I have no interest in commenting on the ethics of damage, salvage or "leaving your mark." Despite what people might think, I'm not one to prescribe hard ethical boundaries for the activity. I think my typical admonition is simply to be "thoughtful" about what you're doing. I'd be foolish and hypocritical to imagine that the typical ethics of urban exploration are anything other than deeply situational.
That said, I think it's ridiculous hubris to pretend that other people's actions have nothing to do with you, just because they don't run in your circle and you only know them through the net. Similarly, I think it's obnoxious to claim this same sort of space for your own behaviour. If at the end of the day you're not willing to account to the broader community for what you're doing, you have no business counting yourself a part of it.
|
|
ryan
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
Providence RI
Gender: Male
F/gayz
| | | | Re: "Take only pictures, leave only footprints."
<Reply # 44 on 12/11/2007 7:50 PM >
| | | | Posted by Air 33
C'mon. Most of the time what goes on here is the same grade 7 rumor mill or people throwing sand into each others face. I don't ever remember kids acting silly and dumb in the sandbox, it only seems that people get worse with age.
|
This is true. But you have no idea what that particular issue was about, so as far as that instance goes, you really have no valid input, and it has nothing to do with the original comment I made about doing things for your self and not caring what people think of you.
I climb stuff!
Remember! Shop smart. Shop S-Mart \http://www.myspace.com/xitstheendx |
|
Atomsk813
location:
Portland, OR
Gender: Male
Personal Picture loading...
| | | Re: "Take only pictures, leave only footprints."
<Reply # 45 on 12/11/2007 8:02 PM >
| | | | Now, those of you who know me may just say that it's due to my age, but I will take things that are interesting enough usually. Here in Seattle, most abandonments that i've found are things waiting to be demolished by none ther than P.O.S. That's Piece of... err... Port of Seattle, for those of you unfamiliar with my neck of the woods. They tend to buy cool abandonments around here and demolish them so that Seattle can be "#1!" to Japan... It's truly sickening. But it does make for good abandonments. PoS doesnt usually check the places before demolishing them, so it's okay to take things usually. But that's just the opinion of a 16-year old explorer. Don't listen to me, I'm foolish. 
|
|
Air
location:
Canada
| | Re: "Take only pictures, leave only footprints."
<Reply # 46 on 12/11/2007 8:32 PM >
| | | | Posted by ryan
This is true. But you have no idea what that particular issue was about, so as far as that instance goes, you really have no valid input, and it has nothing to do with the original comment I made about doing things for your self and not caring what people think of you.
|
Actually, K's statements above mirror what I wanted to say so i won't waste bandwidth typing my statements out for you again. As for what the whole issue was about, honestly I could careless, gossip/hearsay does nothing for me, so as it stands I'll just clarify I don't care. My original comment was about how you were upset about people talking about you before you went off and split the argument up into 1.) people who know you personally, 2.) people who don't you know you -- and how you don't give a shit about them.
What makes this argument so bizarre is how you all (well most of you) rally against certain types of behavior and against others. For example, theft is ok if you take items which maybe lost, but then rage on copper thieves, because "they heat up" locations. Breaking windows and other types of vandalism are bad, but you fail to take note of all the times you broke into building, snipped a lock, broke a window and whatnot.
Debate is ok, but its sad how very few people see that its all circular nonsense 98% of the time.
"The extraordinary beauty of things that fail." - Heinrich von Kleist |
|
cloak-and-dagger
| | | Re: "Take only pictures, leave only footprints."
<Reply # 47 on 12/11/2007 9:02 PM >
| | | | Hot damn.
Thank you to everyone who had something to contribute. This has been a valuable discussion I think, and a lot to read. I learned a little something from everyone. Just a couple things I want to comment on, and then I'll probably make my exit because I dislike when hostility is applied to simple conversation. It's unnecessary and I'd rather not have any part in it (although the joke posts were fun, nothing like a little comic relief when threads get heated).
A common theme: common sense.
This makes sense enough.
However this:
Posted by ryan
There is a no reason to follow a fake code for "exploring" Someone made that up because thats how they felt. It is a not a law and exploring is illegal in most cases. You do what you do the way you want to do it and dont worry if its "propper" or if its "acceptable" We are just people on the internet we are not a part of your actual life, our opinions or views should not matter, and they should definitely have no impact on what you decide to do.
|
I find this horrible. That someone whom you are referring to is not just “some person on the internet” who made a “fake code.” What Ninjalicious did in the Infiltration zine was open up a world that I never knew was a viable hobby. Even though I never met the man doesn't mean that he is simply “some person on the internet.” Maybe I'm a person who still likes to respect people for their accomplishments. Sure he put a spin on “tresspassing” to explore sites but this was done only to urge that we are all people, and there should be a sense of unity among us. That's how I put it into context. So yeah, his opinion matters to me.
As far as the people on this forum go, your opinions do hold some weight in my rationale otherwise I would never post in this forum, nor would I participate in this online community. Online or not, this is a community and that sense of unity implies a certain sense of impact on my thinking. I take everything into consideration, that's just common decency.
Posted by kowalski
I have no interest in commenting on the ethics of damage, salvage or "leaving your mark." Despite what people might think, I'm not one to prescribe hard ethical boundaries for the activity. I think my typical admonition is simply to be "thoughtful" about what you're doing. I'd be foolish and hypocritical to imagine that the typical ethics of urban exploration are anything other than deeply situational.
That said, I think it's ridiculous hubris to pretend that other people's actions have nothing to do with you, just because they don't run in your circle and you only know them through the net. Similarly, I think it's obnoxious to claim this same sort of space for your own behaviour. If at the end of the day you're not willing to account to the broader community for what you're doing, you have no business counting yourself a part of it.
|
This was well said, and in most cases the ethics of exploring do seem situational. If there is something that you can take with you to remember the site because it's being demolished in a week... well, I don't see anything wrong with that. Again and again and again this spells “use your head,” and yeah, I get that. But what kowalski says about being conscious of others is a great bit of knowledge and this goes back to common decency. Well said.
And one more thing.
Posted by Air 33
What makes this argument so bizarre is how you all (well most of you) rally against certain types of behavior and against others. For example, theft is ok if you take items which maybe lost, but then rage on copper thieves, because "they heat up" locations. Breaking windows and other types of vandalism are bad, but you fail to take note of all the times you broke into building, snipped a lock, broke a window and whatnot.
|
Seems like this entire thread boils down to the proverbial phrase: “choose your battles wisely.” However, I disagree that these evils are the same. One is senseless with no merit, and the other is to access a building and nothing more.
So yeah, as I started. Hot damn. Thanks for the discussion everyone.
C&D
"If time is my vessel, then learning to love might be my way back to sea." |
|
nomeus
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
FLA
Gender: Male
www.FLURBEX.com
| | | | | Re: "Take only pictures, leave only footprints."
<Reply # 48 on 12/11/2007 9:06 PM >
| | | | my post didnt make the quote....i need to be a better writer. actually that wont work since i truly dont have that much to say as is. 
www.terraincognito.com
|
|
blackhawk
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
Mission Control
UER newbie
| | | Re: "Take only pictures, leave only footprints."
<Reply # 49 on 12/11/2007 9:08 PM >
| | | | Leaving your name on a chalk board with chalk is not vandalism.
No cop would fire you up for that; that's what a chalk board is made to do,and erasers work miracles.
Most times trespassing it's even chargeable unless you commit another crime.
If your stealing, B&E, destroying other's property; your simply a criminal, not an explorer.
Exploring doesn't give you the right to commit wholesale felonies, and yes you dumb asshats there's a HUGE difference between a municipal trespass charge and a felony B&E with intend to burglarize charge(s)
Degree matters. Most cops operate by the written laws tempered by their own common sense. They can let you slide or charge you with a felony if you exceed their sensibilities. They know roughly how much it will cost you even if your innocent. A little consideration and restraint can save you thousands of dollars and weeks of grief.
No DA or judge will let you plea a felony charge(s) down to a municipal charge; cops know this too.
Exploring isn't a contest to see who can steal and fuck up the most shit the fastest. You should try to operate within the law when possible, and not exceed it anymore than needed to see a site. Your actions there shouldn't damage it or lead to it's destruction. This is one of the things that makes sites hot, and pisses people off.
Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
|
|
SarahMcConnell
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
Philly, PA
Gender: Female
This is old school
| | | | Re: "Take only pictures, leave only footprints."
<Reply # 50 on 12/11/2007 10:02 PM >
| | | | Posted by blackhawk
Exploring isn't a contest to see who can steal and fuck up the most shit the fastest. You should try to operate within the law when possible, and not exceed it anymore than needed to see a site. Your actions there shouldn't damage it or lead to it's destruction. This is one of the things that makes sites hot, and pisses people off.
|
[I think] Exploring isn't a contest to see who can steal and fuck up the most shit the fastest. [I think] You should try to operate within the law when possible, and not exceed it anymore than needed to see a site. [I think] Your actions there shouldn't damage it or lead to it's destruction. [I think] This is one of the things that makes sites hot, and pisses people off.
|
|
Air
location:
Canada
| | Re: "Take only pictures, leave only footprints."
<Reply # 51 on 12/11/2007 10:06 PM >
| | | | Posted by cloak-and-dagger
Seems like this entire thread boils down to the proverbial phrase: “choose your battles wisely.” However, I disagree that these evils are the same. One is senseless with no merit, and the other is to access a building and nothing more.
So yeah, as I started. Hot damn. Thanks for the discussion everyone.
C&D
|
I don't know about that. I'm sure if you are caught entering or exiting a building and try using the argument that "I was just photographing/exploring" and not being just another trespasser, won't cut it. You still cut the lock and stepped over the line.
Now I'm not being judgmental about that. If people want to do that on their own accord they are free to do so, I can't nor do I think that I can stop them, but I just wish some people would get off their high horse and recognize that in the end we can argue about motive all we want, all that matters is we did cross the line and hiding behind the veil that we are photographers or explorers don't matter shit to LE most of the time. If you are suggesting that accessing a building and leaving it open won't invite other problems, is kind of silly.
While we keep breaking into spaces, we can't talk about legitimacy, no matter how we justify it.
"The extraordinary beauty of things that fail." - Heinrich von Kleist |
|
Air
location:
Canada
| | Re: "Take only pictures, leave only footprints."
<Reply # 52 on 12/11/2007 10:08 PM >
| | | | Posted by blackhawk
Exploring doesn't give you the right to commit wholesale felonies, and yes you dumb asshats there's a HUGE difference between a municipal trespass charge and a felony B&E with intend to burglarize charge(s)
Exploring isn't a contest to see who can steal and fuck up the most shit the fastest. You should try to operate within the law when possible, and not exceed it anymore than needed to see a site. Your actions there shouldn't damage it or lead to it's destruction. This is one of the things that makes sites hot, and pisses people off.
|
Quoted for right-ness.
"The extraordinary beauty of things that fail." - Heinrich von Kleist |
|
Explorer Zero
| | | Re: "Take only pictures, leave only footprints."
<Reply # 53 on 12/12/2007 12:06 AM >
| | | | I think its fairly obvious this was some sort of frame up and some guys from some, where, forged our call signs.
|
|
kowalski
| | Re: "Take only pictures, leave only footprints."
<Reply # 54 on 12/12/2007 12:42 AM >
| | | | That bloody DEA. Listen, if Reardon is dead, those ****ers are going to pay.
|
|
White Rabbit
Women's Advocate
location:
Missouri
Gender: Male
| | | Re: "Take only pictures, leave only footprints."
<Reply # 55 on 12/12/2007 2:51 AM >
| | | | Ugh. I'm not even going to bother arguing the anti-stealing/anti-B&E point of view, because, frankly, UER is just chock-full of child-minded people who don't give a rat's ass how their actions affect other people and who will make excuses for those actions until THE END OF TIME.
I will say, however, that I wish to God those of you that are pro-stealing, pro-graffiti, pro-breaking-your-way-in, etc., would shut the fuck up about it in public.
Because people like that are the reason that the term "urban explorer" has an immediately negative connotation to people in authority. People like that are the reason that when cops or the like hear "urban explorer" they think of someone more like ryan and less like Ninj.
The wisdom on breaking the "nothing but pictures, etc." philosophy should be: Don't do it. But if you're gonna do it anyway, for God's sake don't talk about it.
[last edit 12/12/2007 2:51 AM by White Rabbit - edited 2 times]
Underground Ozarks http://www.undergroundozarks.com
Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Kansas |
|
micro
Gender: Male
Slowly I turned
| | Re: "Take only pictures, leave only footprints."
<Reply # 56 on 12/12/2007 3:06 AM >
| | | | I agree 100%
|
|
yokes
location:
Toronto
Gender: Male
I aim to misbehave
| | | | Re: "Take only pictures, leave only footprints."
<Reply # 57 on 12/12/2007 3:49 AM >
| | | | Bingo
"Great architecture has only two natural enemies: water and stupid men." - Richard Nickel |
|
Air
location:
Canada
| | Re: "Take only pictures, leave only footprints."
<Reply # 58 on 12/12/2007 3:54 AM >
| | | | Posted by White Rabbit
Ugh. I'm not even going to bother arguing the anti-stealing/anti-B&E point of view, because, frankly, UER is just chock-full of child-minded people who don't give a rat's ass how their actions affect other people and who will make excuses for those actions until THE END OF TIME.
I will say, however, that I wish to God those of you that are pro-stealing, pro-graffiti, pro-breaking-your-way-in, etc., would shut the fuck up about it in public.
Because people like that are the reason that the term "urban explorer" has an immediately negative connotation to people in authority. People like that are the reason that when cops or the like hear "urban explorer" they think of someone more like ryan and less like Ninj.
The wisdom on breaking the "nothing but pictures, etc." philosophy should be: Don't do it. But if you're gonna do it anyway, for God's sake don't talk about it.
|
Quoted for relevance!
"The extraordinary beauty of things that fail." - Heinrich von Kleist |
|
micro
Gender: Male
Slowly I turned
| | Re: "Take only pictures, leave only footprints."
<Reply # 59 on 12/12/2007 4:14 AM >
| | | | Posted by Air 33
Quoted for relevance!
|
Quoted for annoying internet trend!
(sorry, I'm just seriously over people doing this all the time now)
[last edit 12/12/2007 4:15 AM by micro - edited 1 times]
|
|
Powered by AvBoard AvBoard version 1.5 alpha
Page Generated In: 78 ms
|
|
Ethics