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greyeyeblindmind
 
location:
Montreal
Gender: Male
 |  | The 'Cite du Havre' project
< on 4/27/2006 2:27 AM >
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Would like to know what you guys think of the 'Cité du Havre' project. It is a six billion dollars project that aims to 'revitalize' the whole Vieux Port area from the Jacques-Cartier Bridge up to the Ile-des-Soeurs. It would comprehend the renovation and rearrangement of the Bonaventure highway, the creation of a tramway and the expension of the Vieux-Port touristic area to the Lachine canal, the Tate and Wellington bassins as well as the old CN buildings. What will be the likely impacts of this on urban exploration and on the city of Montreal. Should the project be encouraged or not?
Votre opinion sur le projet de la Société du Havre de Montréal d'un centre récréo-touristique dans le Vieux-Port: La 'Cité du Havre'. Le projet comprendrait réaménagement de l'autoroute Bonaventure, la création d'une centrale hydro-électrique et d'une foire 'd'envergure internationale' dans les anciens ateliers du CN ou dans les bassins Tate ou Wellington. Les impacts de possibles de ces développements sur l'exploration urbaine et pour la ville de Montréal. Devrait-on allé de l'avant et appuyer le projet ou non?
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maZe
      
location:
Montreal/Moncton/Ottawa
Gender: Female
"All the world's a stage and most of us are desperately unrehearsed" - Sean O'Casey
| |  |  | Re: The 'Cite du Havre' project
<Reply # 1 on 4/27/2006 3:57 AM >
|  | | | C'est un vieux projet piloté par Lucien "Lucide" Bouchard qui refait surface de temps en temps. J'ai déjà étudié le projet en détail y'a 2 ans dans le cadre d'une commission de planification urbaine.
Je dois dire que la version actuelle (ben présentée hier/ce matin) m'apparaît meilleure que les précédente. Intéressant de noter qu'une partie des infrastructures que Bouchard propose étaient déjà là en 1967 pour l'Expo et ont été démoli ensuite. Ironique au maximum.
Harper va couper bientôt le programme fédéral d'infrastructures au moins de moitié selon certaines sources et au complet selon d'autres sources. Québec n'a pas l'argent pour financer le projet et la VdeMtl non plus alors moi je pense qu'on verra pas ça de notre vivant. À moins que le "projet" ne voit le jour que petit morceau par petit morceau, un peu à l'image de Mel's Cité du cinéma qui a poussé dans le milieu de rien.
Y'a eu comme un début de mouvement vers ce projet-là de la part du privé y'a quelques années mais ça n'a pas duré. Par contre, à cause du fait que le projet branle dans le manche, il y a BEAUCOUP de spéculation sur les terrains qui pourraient être touchés...
Mais je ne pense pas voir ça dans sa forme actuelle. Pas de mon vivant, ni même après ma mort.
[last edit 4/27/2006 1:10 PM by maZe - edited 1 times]
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Charlie_Dunver
location:
Montreal
Gender: Male
| | | Re: The 'Cite du Havre' project
<Reply # 2 on 4/27/2006 12:02 PM >
| | | | It's probably a mess as it all comes down to the same people who don t know their asses from their elbows.
"No Brain, No Pain"
The whole thing got skewered when the Loto Quebec/Circue du Soleil farce was rejected, and that tells you a lot about how sharp the people that will make decisions on this really are.
Explorations?
I am not sure I understand the question. I mean they aren t planning to build abandonments are they?
In the meantime, it remains a big city.
CD
http://neath.wordpress.com |
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maZe
location:
Montreal/Moncton/Ottawa
Gender: Female
"All the world's a stage and most of us are desperately unrehearsed" - Sean O'Casey
| | | | Re: The 'Cite du Havre' project
<Reply # 3 on 4/27/2006 1:02 PM >
| | | | Woah. Ok, maybe I studied this wrong but Cirque du Soleil is not part of the Cité du havre project. It's got nothing to do with it. It's not from the same funding sources (Cité du Havre wants to tap into fed. program for Infrastructures, Casino goes for provincial funding through Loto-Québec and tax exemptions programs).
Cité du Havre is organized as a private corporation already with a board of Directors (with Bouchard as the Chair) while Casino Loto-Québec/Cirque du soleil would have been managed by the provincial government.
Those 2 projects really have nothing in common.
And as far as the "it remains a city" I'm not sure I get it either cause at this point, the biggest thing Cité du Havre remains is a dead area, with close to zero activity and just big empty land fields, some of contaminated soils.
There's 4 major sectors of activities for this project :
- Project to redesign the riverfront, make it usable and move Bonaventure highway
- Rehabilitation of contaminated soils
- Center for commercial fairs/conventions
- modern tramway
The Tramway aspect was added recently after the Mayor of Montreal visited Paris and felt in love with their trams. Before, it was just some mentions of some urban/regional city surface trains.
More infos here : http://www.havremo...qc.ca/fr/index.htm
[last edit 4/27/2006 1:03 PM by maZe - edited 3 times]
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nostra-YOUPPI!
Umpire
location:
Shahre:'on Kaybec
Bonsoir et cest partie
| | Re: The 'Cite du Havre' project
<Reply # 4 on 4/27/2006 1:05 PM >
| | | | Posted by maZe
Woah. Ok, maybe I studied this wrong but Cirque du Soleil is not part of the Cité du havre project. It's got nothing to do with it. It's not from the same funding sources (Cité du Havre wants to tap into fed. program for Infrastructures, Casino goes for provincial funding through Loto-Québec and tax exemptions programs).
Cité du Havre is organized as a private corporation already with a board of Directors (with Bouchard as the Chair) while Casino Loto-Québec/Cirque du soleil would have been managed by the provincial government.
Those 2 projects really have nothing in common.
And as far as the "it remains a city" I'm not sure I get it either cause at this point, the biggest thing Cité du Havre remains is a dead area, with close to zero activity and just big empty land field, some of contaminated soils.
There's 4 major sectors of activities for this project :
- Project to redesign the riverfront, make it usable and move Bonaventure highway
- Rehabilitation of contaminated soils
- Center for commercial fairs/conventions
- modern tramway
The Tramway aspect was added recently after the Mayor of Montreal visited Paris and felt in love with their trams. Before, it was just some mentioned of some urban/regional city surface trains.
More infos here : http://www.havremo...qc.ca/fr/index.htm
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i think people are mixing up the projects because the loto quebec/stade saputo involved a tram. as you say maze i dont see this comming to fruition in my lifetime, when we say contaminated soil this property makes "mont marde" and lasalle coke look like prime farm land, the technoparc site was used as a garbage dump for over a hundred years, paved for parking for expo then more trash was put on top, they reclaimed river land with trash so the project is a lot worse that people realize, the ferme st gabriel in the point was at one time waterfront land
Montreal Expos 1969-2004 Forever Proud Lets Keep The Dream Alive |
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maZe
location:
Montreal/Moncton/Ottawa
Gender: Female
"All the world's a stage and most of us are desperately unrehearsed" - Sean O'Casey
| | | | Re: The 'Cite du Havre' project
<Reply # 5 on 4/27/2006 1:14 PM >
| | | | Yeah, you're right Nostra. They haven't started yet and it's already over budget for removal of contaminated soils. OUCH.
And that's why Bouchard, Fox and the gang won't move on it until they get government funding. A private corporation, which they are, will not let costs run over like crazy, government will. Get government money, and then, start removing the contaminated soil, run out of money and go cry to Daddy Harper then it's more contaminated than you thought it was and voilà, you'll get more dough.
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nostra-YOUPPI!
Umpire
location:
Shahre:'on Kaybec
Bonsoir et cest partie
| | Re: The 'Cite du Havre' project
<Reply # 6 on 4/27/2006 1:16 PM >
| | | | and the funniest one, teleglobe is built in the same fashion as christ church cathedral, on stilts because the ground has as an engineer friend of mine describes "the consistency of chocolate pudding" the bonaventure expressway has sunk 2.5 feet since its construction
Montreal Expos 1969-2004 Forever Proud Lets Keep The Dream Alive |
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Charlie_Dunver
location:
Montreal
Gender: Male
| | | Re: The 'Cite du Havre' project
<Reply # 7 on 4/27/2006 2:41 PM >
| | | | My argument would be it doesnt matter if it s Montreal, Bouchard, or Donald Duck running this or that project, it s all the same waterfront and it is all VERY connected no matter who says what. If the scope of the project includes Nun's Island then I fail to see how the riverfront in the Point is somehow not "connected". But you know politicians, they like splitting up ridings to suit their own purposes, so why not the same with concepts of "development"?
CD
http://neath.wordpress.com |
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maZe
location:
Montreal/Moncton/Ottawa
Gender: Female
"All the world's a stage and most of us are desperately unrehearsed" - Sean O'Casey
| | | | Re: The 'Cite du Havre' project
<Reply # 8 on 4/27/2006 3:18 PM >
| | | | Posted by Charlie_Dunver
My argument would be it doesnt matter if it s Montreal, Bouchard, or Donald Duck running this or that project, it s all the same waterfront and it is all VERY connected no matter who says what. If the scope of the project includes Nun's Island then I fail to see how the riverfront in the Point is somehow not "connected". But you know politicians, they like splitting up ridings to suit their own purposes, so why not the same with concepts of "development"?
CD
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Charlie, I think you should check the website. IT'S NOT THE SAME WATERFRONT that we're talking about. It's not the same site. It's not the same location. It's not the same people. It's not the same type of projects. One is public, one is private.
It's close to Nun's island but technically doesn't touch it.
And technically speaking, Bouchard is not a politician anymore, he's a private businessman. He's not gonna to that project to get votes or suit some ridings.
Here's the biggest differences in my opinions :
LOTO-QUÉBEC/CIRQUE DU SOLEIL :
-Move a state-money-making cow that is already existing to a new location in the heart of a very poor city sector, all this paid by the tax payers' money although the numerous negative social impacts of such a move on the existing population of the area was been proved many many times again. Publicly fund the construction a big, brand new theatre for the Cirque du Soleil (which already makes billions of money so I doubt they need our hard-earned taxpayers money to built a theatre) while giving them tax exemptions for years. They will then present shows that the local population don't have enough money to go see.
-the whole project would be managed and funded by the government of Québec, meaning many many costs overbudgets, strikes and you name it.
-This is not riverfront to the St-Lawrence at all. There will be water but not directly the St-Lawrence right in front of it.
CITÉ DU HAVRE :
-Stimulate a sector of the city that is a dead-man zone at the moment. Where there is nothing - absolutely nothing except Mel's and Teleglobe - but vacant contaminated fields. No one lives there as of now. There is no negative social impact, yet numerous positive impacts on downtown development, city rejuvenation, job creation, decontamination of quite a large area and development of currently-vacant/forgetten/abandonned riverfront area.
-This project will be managed by a private corporation with part of the funding from private sources, meaning generally better construction, longer quality of life, better management of the project and less budget overflow.
-This is prime riverfront that hasn't been used in 40 years because of contaminated land. All of it is pretty much vacant at the moment.
Charlie, I think you're mixing the 2 projects here.
[last edit 4/27/2006 3:22 PM by maZe - edited 1 times]
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nostra-YOUPPI!
Umpire
location:
Shahre:'on Kaybec
Bonsoir et cest partie
| | Re: The 'Cite du Havre' project
<Reply # 9 on 4/27/2006 3:56 PM >
| | | | maze dont forget when teleglob imploded they were down to 25 employees last time i checked so teleglobe canada cant really be considered as being there!
Montreal Expos 1969-2004 Forever Proud Lets Keep The Dream Alive |
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maZe
location:
Montreal/Moncton/Ottawa
Gender: Female
"All the world's a stage and most of us are desperately unrehearsed" - Sean O'Casey
| | | | Re: The 'Cite du Havre' project
<Reply # 10 on 4/27/2006 4:26 PM >
| | | | Yeah, I know. It's almost 100% vacant... anyway. It is in the middle of nothing.
Mechfreak57 in the UER chat : "George W. Bush is not perfect. He fucked up the borders and Irak is a shit storm but he's the best we've got. "
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nostra-YOUPPI!
Umpire
location:
Shahre:'on Kaybec
Bonsoir et cest partie
| | Re: The 'Cite du Havre' project
<Reply # 11 on 4/27/2006 5:00 PM >
| | | | Posted by maZe
Yeah, I know. It's almost 100% vacant... anyway. It is in the middle of nothing.
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and that after they added a huge addition 5 years ago to the building, oops i forgot, bell morbidity is there too. I did some research during my lunchhour, mels is also built on pilings because the ground is so bad. Supposedly if they were to proceed with decontamination there would be nothing left in the area. Metropolitain gas used to dump coal residue on the site too. Montreal Light Heat and power also burried transformers and one of the biggest finds, mis labeled softdrink cans!
Montreal Expos 1969-2004 Forever Proud Lets Keep The Dream Alive |
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maZe
location:
Montreal/Moncton/Ottawa
Gender: Female
"All the world's a stage and most of us are desperately unrehearsed" - Sean O'Casey
| | | | Re: The 'Cite du Havre' project
<Reply # 12 on 4/27/2006 7:01 PM >
| | | | Interesting find indeed.
that means years and years of garbage, asphalt, transformers, cans and of course contaminated soils.
Prime location. lol
Mechfreak57 in the UER chat : "George W. Bush is not perfect. He fucked up the borders and Irak is a shit storm but he's the best we've got. "
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nostra-YOUPPI!
Umpire
location:
Shahre:'on Kaybec
Bonsoir et cest partie
| | Re: The 'Cite du Havre' project
<Reply # 13 on 4/27/2006 7:30 PM >
| | | | i think they would hope there was more contaminated soil 
Montreal Expos 1969-2004 Forever Proud Lets Keep The Dream Alive |
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SPEK Photo
location:
Where you were not.
"Chere cachère!"
| | | Re: The 'Cite du Havre' project
<Reply # 14 on 4/28/2006 1:32 AM >
| | | | Alstom a la plus longue liste de contaminants déclaré dans son terrain. http://www.mddep.g...ines/recherche.asp
Quand je vais voir une pelleter de terre avec une pelle peinturée couleur or et un ruban rouge je vais penser qu'il y a quelque chose de concret, même chose pour l'élévateur à grain No5, d'ici là zzZZZzzZZzz.
Pour fins d'archives.
WWW.EXPLORATIONURBAINE.CA |
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greyeyeblindmind
location:
Montreal
Gender: Male
| | Re: The 'Cite du Havre' project
<Reply # 15 on 4/28/2006 2:56 AM >
| | | | I'd like to thank nostra-youppi, and especially Maze for the useful information about the 'Cité du Havre' project. You've been of great help.
Now according to her arguments, it seems the project would be positive for the city Montreal, since the area affected by the project would see a surge of development and growth, as well economical benefits. Unfortunately, due to impending political decisions at the federal level, and lack of funds at the provincial and municipal one, the project isn't likely to be realized any time soon. That is quite unfortunate, if there is a real potential of development in the area. I also take notice of the fact that numerous industries and companies have contributed to contaminate the soil and to make it unsuited for residential use. That is a minus. What is impressive is that, even though the state of the contamination is well known, because of projects like the 'Cité du Havre' the value of the land is heightened.
Now, just another question I have that may not be linked to the initial project, but which I’ll ask anyway. What would you think of the proposition the transform the old CN buildings and properties, which include (correct me if I am wrong) the Silo 5 complex, from which you have the best view of Montreal, into a modern art museum.
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maZe
location:
Montreal/Moncton/Ottawa
Gender: Female
"All the world's a stage and most of us are desperately unrehearsed" - Sean O'Casey
| | | | Re: The 'Cite du Havre' project
<Reply # 16 on 4/28/2006 3:58 AM >
| | | | Redevelopment of CN lands and Silo no. 5 or not related as far as I know. There are currently 3 proposals being studied for Silo no.5, 2 condos and 1 from the MAC to turn it into a museum.
I personally hope they turn it into a museum, yet I doubt that's the proposal they'll choose (cause this one requires, again, public funding as of the 2 other proposals are from private corporations). I dunno if it's still accessible but you used to be able to read the 3 proposals on the web.
One way or the other, from what I understood when I read the proposition, I believe last sept/oct. was that the "historical aspect" of Silo no. 5 will be protected one way the other and that's good news.
Can't remember when they'll announce for what proposal they're gonna go for. Hummm I dunno, sept. 06 comes to mind but I can't recall. I'm sure it's on the web somewhere...
What would be nice is if the gov. (who currently owns it) would do an "open door" to see the Silo no.5 before they start changing it. Montrealers could appreciate this place for once.
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Charlie_Dunver
location:
Montreal
Gender: Male
| | | Re: The 'Cite du Havre' project
<Reply # 17 on 4/28/2006 6:38 AM >
| | | | First, let me apologise for my abruptness, it is not normally my style, been a rough few days and, frankly, those "developers" do get under my skin from time to time.
But I still do not understand what you guys are saying about a different waterfront.
This is from a Societe du Harve 2003 document,
"In addition, many stakeholders (business community and socioeconomic organizations in the Sud-Ouest borough) considered that the part of the statement reading "remaining sensitive to the needs of industrial
operations, which have been constantly evolving" was rather weak. Port and railway operations and the agrifood industry are still present and dynamic on the harbourfront. Some representatives of socioeconomic organizations in the Sud-Ouest borough would like to maintain the historic Alstom shops’ role in the railway industry, despite their closure. After all, this is where
the Grand Trunk Railway was located. In short, when it comes to this aspect relating to the harbourfront's older industrial facilities, the proposed project should safeguard these activities and promote development compatible
with their status and their existence, rather than simply waiting for these companies and the jobs they create to disappear."
But it at least implies they were not "in charge" for the Loto/Cirque debacle.
Now today I have read their "Final Proposal" for April 2006 and it includes this,
"The future of the sites of the Tate and Wellington basins and the CN shops in Point St. Charles remains to be defined following the cancellation of the entertainment complex and world scale trade fair centre projects."
Anyway, I just dont see how you can talk about moving/demolishing/rerouting/etc the Bonaveture without a solid game plan for that area included.
I must have missed something here. We can't be this out of whack, LOL.
As far as #5 goes I would personally love to see the Silophone concept be a part of any permanent plan. A semi public place like a museum is fine.
CD
http://neath.wordpress.com |
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nostra-YOUPPI!
Umpire
location:
Shahre:'on Kaybec
Bonsoir et cest partie
| | Re: The 'Cite du Havre' project
<Reply # 18 on 4/28/2006 12:16 PM >
| | | | they were discussing on another board how the cite du havre plan for re routing the bonaventure does not take into account the road access to the victoria bridge, they have it passing directly at the old toll plaza. also the MAC should look unto itself before trying to preserve other buildings, they left a beautiful building built for expo 67 on cite du havre and it has remained abandonned ever since!
Montreal Expos 1969-2004 Forever Proud Lets Keep The Dream Alive |
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maZe
location:
Montreal/Moncton/Ottawa
Gender: Female
"All the world's a stage and most of us are desperately unrehearsed" - Sean O'Casey
| | | | Re: The 'Cite du Havre' project
<Reply # 19 on 4/28/2006 12:17 PM >
| | | | This pic of the project might answer some of your questions :
link
Yet, again, and I'm repeating myself : the 2 projects are NOT related. They have different goals, different funding sources. Completely different.
Edit: Changed large image to a link -MapMan
[last edit 4/28/2006 4:18 PM by Emperor Wang - edited 1 times]
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