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UER Forum > Archived Rookie Forum > Tips for Abandoned Mines?? (Viewed 1980 times)
MrSivalls 

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Re: Tips for Abandoned Mines??
<Reply # 20 on 11/21/2011 12:38 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by robk700
I'm not going near your holes.


lol. Guess I should have put 'punk" on the end of it, but sounded a bit rude.

Your security measures were inadequate.
How unfortunate for you.
qwerty05 






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Re: Tips for Abandoned Mines??
<Reply # 21 on 11/22/2011 9:52 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Robk700 is right in my opinion, for all the danger people warn of, statistics don't seem to back them up.

In my experience air flow in mines is pretty obvious. Some places have fresh air flowing through them, some clearly don't. You can maximize the difference by exploring on a day when air pressure outdoors is on the rise.

AnAppleSnail 


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Re: Tips for Abandoned Mines??
<Reply # 22 on 11/22/2011 10:11 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by qwerty05
Robk700 is right in my opinion, for all the danger people warn of, statistics don't seem to back them up.

In my experience air flow in mines is pretty obvious. Some places have fresh air flowing through them, some clearly don't. You can maximize the difference by exploring on a day when air pressure outdoors is on the rise.


My experience in storm drains is that outside wind speed and temperature changes make the most difference for airflow. I have no idea if that applies to mines.

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MrSivalls 

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Re: Tips for Abandoned Mines??
<Reply # 23 on 11/22/2011 10:16 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by qwerty05
Robk700 is right in my opinion, for all the danger people warn of, statistics don't seem to back them up.

In my experience air flow in mines is pretty obvious. Some places have fresh air flowing through them, some clearly don't. You can maximize the difference by exploring on a day when air pressure outdoors is on the rise.


There's a reason they are sealing mines left and right in TX. The internet doesn't list all that died, or worse, that had to be rescued.

Your security measures were inadequate.
How unfortunate for you.
MrSivalls 

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Re: Tips for Abandoned Mines??
<Reply # 24 on 11/22/2011 10:19 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by qwerty05
Robk700 is right in my opinion, for all the danger people warn of, statistics don't seem to back them up.

In my experience air flow in mines is pretty obvious. Some places have fresh air flowing through them, some clearly don't. You can maximize the difference by exploring on a day when air pressure outdoors is on the rise.


There's a reason they are sealing mines left and right in TX. The internet doesn't list all that died, or worse, that had to be rescued.

Your security measures were inadequate.
How unfortunate for you.
Jonsered 


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Re: Tips for Abandoned Mines??
<Reply # 25 on 11/22/2011 10:31 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Mobile
 
Protecting us from ourselves. Look, I've tried to stay out of this, but mines aren't that bad. Been going underground for fun since the early 80's. Horizontal is easy and fairly safe. Vertical is difficult and substantially more dangerous. Coal mines almost always have some gas. Iron mines often have bad air. If you have to crawl into it, don't go. Never trust an underground ladder. Don't touch a damn thing, EVER. Leave the bats alone, and do not scream if they start flying. Loud noises underground tend to be a bad idea. Watch for holes and shafts covered with old wood, and be careful around the edge of shafts as they can crumble away. I could go on and on but its really simple. Mines are hazardous shit. Watch your ass, don't be stupid, and if you think you are in over your head you can bet your ass you are. All that being said, mines kick ass. Go do it and have some fun.

I have changed my personal exploring ethics code. From now on it will be: "Take only aimed shots, leave only hobo corpses." Copper scrappers, meth heads and homeless beware. The Jonsered cometh among you, bringing fear and dread.

MrSivalls 

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Re: Tips for Abandoned Mines??
<Reply # 26 on 11/22/2011 11:53 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by Jonsered
Protecting us from ourselves. Look, I've tried to stay out of this, but mines aren't that bad. Been going underground for fun since the early 80's. Horizontal is easy and fairly safe. Vertical is difficult and substantially more dangerous. Coal mines almost always have some gas. Iron mines often have bad air. If you have to crawl into it, don't go. Never trust an underground ladder. Don't touch a damn thing, EVER. Leave the bats alone, and do not scream if they start flying. Loud noises underground tend to be a bad idea. Watch for holes and shafts covered with old wood, and be careful around the edge of shafts as they can crumble away. I could go on and on but its really simple. Mines are hazardous shit. Watch your ass, don't be stupid, and if you think you are in over your head you can bet your ass you are. All that being said, mines kick ass. Go do it and have some fun.


When are you going to PM me some of the fun ones in south NM?

Your security measures were inadequate.
How unfortunate for you.
robk700 


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Re: Tips for Abandoned Mines??
<Reply # 27 on 11/23/2011 5:03 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by AnAppleSnail


My experience in storm drains is that outside wind speed and temperature changes make the most difference for airflow. I have no idea if that applies to mines.


Most big mines are like caves. Same temp and airflow all year round. Thanks guys for backing me up. Doing mines and caves are pretty much like hiking in the dark but with a roof. Just apply common sense unless it is soft rock which is not gold, silver, copper, ect. I'm leaving tomorrow for a 9 day tour of mines here in Death Valley, Mojave, ect. If you don't hear back from me...bawhahaha.


[last edit 11/23/2011 7:11 PM by robk700 - edited 8 times]

robk700 


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Re: Tips for Abandoned Mines??
<Reply # 28 on 11/23/2011 7:12 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I'm gonna blame the orional post on the booz. Anyway, here I go. If anyone wants to meet up with me I'd love the company at any point. Cheers all.
[last edit 11/23/2011 7:49 PM by robk700 - edited 3 times]

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Re: Tips for Abandoned Mines??
<Reply # 29 on 11/23/2011 1:29 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Most of the mines near cripple creek will be gold or silver mines.
You will probably want to take a hard hat, at least 2 lights per person, and a gas detector of some sort. If you want to go explore, go with at least one other person.

The most important things to keep in mind are:
-Dont touch anything, especially any old supports you find.

-Watch where you walk very carefully(Old mines will often have shafts connecting multiple levels, which sometimes get covered and can collapse under your weight)

-If the mine appears recently active(Within past 5 years or so) stay away, small mine owners can be very protective of their claim.

-If you want to do any vertical stuff, use your own ropes, don't rely on existing ladders and such.

-Don't disturb any water you find(May contain lots of dissolved gasses, and may be very acidic)

Other than that, have fun, mines are really cool places to go look around.


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Re: Tips for Abandoned Mines??
<Reply # 30 on 11/23/2011 6:55 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 


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Re: Tips for Abandoned Mines??
<Reply # 31 on 11/24/2011 1:50 PM >
Posted on Forum: Infiltration Forums
 
Awesome video!

You're not in a brothel lineup. You're in a two way business discussion.
tick 


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Re: Tips for Abandoned Mines??
<Reply # 32 on 11/26/2011 3:23 AM >
Posted on Forum: Infiltration Forums
 
As far as a gas detector goes... I've used an MSA Altair O2 meter for exploring abandoned iron mines (they run around $200). The reasoning behind a single gas detector is that low oxygen is the biggest air quality hazard in iron mines, and if there were other gasses (high CO or H2S, etc) they would displace oxygen, causing a low oxygen alarm anyways. The lowest level I ever recorded was 19.8% (fresh air is 20.8%), which really isn't bad. Once you get below 20% you can really tell a difference in your breathing.

Therrin 

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Re: Tips for Abandoned Mines??
<Reply # 33 on 11/26/2011 3:34 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I'll refer you to the pages of my mine exploration group's website.

http://www.undergr...ers.com/safety.htm

http://www.undergr...rs.com/safety1.htm

http://www.undergr...rs.com/safety2.htm

That will give you a pretty well-rounded idea of what you're up against, information to equip yourself with on what types of things need to be considered, and a basis for getting started in doing it the right way.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions or concerns. I do professional mineshaft exploration, and teach vertical access techniques for on-rope activities.

Stay safe =)


Oh, and about gas detection:

The very few times you'll encounter bad air scenarios, you're looking at low O2 levels, high CO levels, and possible H2S exposure, occasionally some other things.
A "quad monitor" is really the only way to go if you're really worried. It monitors O2, Co, H2S, and LEL's (gasses which are explosive/combustible). Our crew typically takes O2 single-gas monitors at the very least.
They are expensive, but can usually be rented from safety supply stores.
A single-gas monitor can be had for around $200 from a reputable company. Stay away from Ebay, as most of them have faulty sensors or missing parts, or are so old that replacement parts and quality servicing is no longer available.
(only check ebay for this stuff if you really know what you're looking for)

Gas contamination and low/high levels is something you should study on your own from a variety of sources if it's a concern for you. Internet chat boards probably aren't the greatest place. Numerous articles have been written on this subject.
The basics are still fairly simple though. Respirators/gas masks/etc don't "supply good air", they only filter out different particulates and some chemicals found in different gasses.

Someone mentioned a "rebreather" which is fine if you have a few thousand dollars to spend and you don't mind lugging 50lbs of gear on your back. SCBA is also very bulky and expensive, and only gives you 30-60 mins.
Anything which would require the use of this equipment also requires a high level of knowledge about the environment you're going into, and training with the equipment besides. Not the kinda thing you want to screw around with probably.

I'll cut this short though. I'm purchasing some new technical dive gear for a mine-diving trip scheduled for 2 weeks from now =)

Cheers!

**EDIT**
Oh, and listen to tick. He seems to be fairly well versed in this stuff as well. Though not all of those gasses actually "displace" O2. Some gasses are heavy, some are light. H2S is a 'heavy' gas. CO will displace O2 in your lungs. Gas-study can be complex to a beginner.

[last edit 11/26/2011 3:36 AM by Therrin - edited 1 times]

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MrSivalls 

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Re: Tips for Abandoned Mines??
<Reply # 34 on 11/26/2011 5:15 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by tick
As far as a gas detector goes... I've used an MSA Altair O2 meter for exploring abandoned iron mines (they run around $200). The reasoning behind a single gas detector is that low oxygen is the biggest air quality hazard in iron mines, and if there were other gasses (high CO or H2S, etc) they would displace oxygen, causing a low oxygen alarm anyways. The lowest level I ever recorded was 19.8% (fresh air is 20.8%), which really isn't bad. Once you get below 20% you can really tell a difference in your breathing.


If H2S is present, a H2S monitor is mandatory. H2S will mix with the O2.
I spoke with a oilfield worker the other day that was incapacitated with a single breath of air with a high H2S concentration. No warning, just bam! It literally is like being punched in the solar plexus, you can't breath in or out. He manage to stagger far enough away before collapsing from the area of highest concentration. A fellow worker then dragged him the rest of the way clear. He suffer mild chemical pneumonia for the next few days. He was lucky.
This was a very experienced worker, in his prime, and he barely escaped with his life.
Most would have been killed. H2S is a deadly, proven killer. Avoid it.

Your security measures were inadequate.
How unfortunate for you.
blacklines 


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Re: Tips for Abandoned Mines??
<Reply # 35 on 11/26/2011 6:31 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by MrSivalls


If H2S is present, a H2S monitor is mandatory. H2S will mix with the O2.
I spoke with a oilfield worker the other day that was incapacitated with a single breath of air with a high H2S concentration. No warning, just bam! It literally is like being punched in the solar plexus, you can't breath in or out. He manage to stagger far enough away before collapsing from the area of highest concentration. A fellow worker then dragged him the rest of the way clear. He suffer mild chemical pneumonia for the next few days. He was lucky.
This was a very experienced worker, in his prime, and he barely escaped with his life.
Most would have been killed. H2S is a deadly, proven killer. Avoid it.


automobiles are a deadly, proven killer. avoid them

we get it, there are hazards, but we've gone over this. got anything new?

robk700 


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Re: Tips for Abandoned Mines??
<Reply # 36 on 11/26/2011 8:45 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by blacklines


automobiles are a deadly, proven killer. avoid them

we get it, there are hazards, but we've gone over this. got anything new?


:yawn: Agree. Moving on.

MrSivalls 

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Re: Tips for Abandoned Mines??
<Reply # 37 on 11/26/2011 3:41 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by blacklines


automobiles are a deadly, proven killer. avoid them

we get it, there are hazards, but we've gone over this. got anything new?


The person I described had a lot more wherewithal in dealing with it than 99% of the people here. He came very close to dying. Once you take one breathe, you are done with concentration 800PPM and above.
What chance do you think you would stand in a 0.1% or more H2S concentration? zero.

It warrants repeating as some don't think it can or will happen to them. You wouldn't be able to flee quickly in a confine space or be rescued, in time. Unlike the person I spoke of, you will die.

Your security measures were inadequate.
How unfortunate for you.
Therrin 

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Re: Tips for Abandoned Mines??
<Reply # 38 on 11/27/2011 12:44 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by MrSivalls


The person I described had a lot more wherewithal in dealing with it than 99% of the people here. He came very close to dying. Once you take one breathe, you are done with concentration 800PPM and above.
What chance do you think you would stand in a 0.1% or more H2S concentration? zero.

It warrants repeating as some don't think it can or will happen to them. You wouldn't be able to flee quickly in a confine space or be rescued, in time. Unlike the person I spoke of, you will die.


I actually also work on an oilfield and have to wear an H2S monitor on me all the time.
The mine that I'm going to be diving in, has "H2S" written on the walls in some places. And it's a semi-flooded mine. You have to slog through water in it. H2S can easily entrain itself to become trapped within water, and cna be released when you disturb the water.
I took an H2S detector with me and sampled the air all throughout and got no readings at all.
Which doesn't mean that there wasn't some there at one time though.
Also, some people confuse the smell of rotting wood with the "rotten egg" smell of H2S.
H2S's "rotten egg smell" is only detectable at lower levels. At higher levels it completely deadens the olfactory area which picks up that scent.

I believe 10PPM is the OSHA cutoff limit. But there's stuff like TWA (time weighted averages) and other junk to keep in mind.

I've been in other mines where you could swear the air is bad somehow, but a quad detector shows no abnormal readings.


PS: Depending on your diet, if you fart on an H2S monitor, you can set it off. I've gotten readings as high as 40ppm. True story =)
[last edit 11/27/2011 12:46 AM by Therrin - edited 1 times]

Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =)
blacklines 


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Re: Tips for Abandoned Mines??
<Reply # 39 on 11/27/2011 4:15 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by Therrin


PS: Depending on your diet, if you fart on an H2S monitor, you can set it off. I've gotten readings as high as 40ppm. True story =)


this sounds like a drinking game.

UER Forum > Archived Rookie Forum > Tips for Abandoned Mines?? (Viewed 1980 times)
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