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2024-04-24 04:50:25
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 DJ Craig
         
Moderator
Location: Johnson City, TN
Gender: Male
Break the Silence
 |  |  |  | Re: Fall Protection
<Reply # 20 on 2/24/2010 12:37 AM >
|  | | | Posted by MindHacker
I'm gonna broaden the topic to fall protection in general.
Let's say there was a 500' ladder, and a number of people would be climbing it together. I think a lead-climbing type setup would be simpler than lobster-claws...
A rope would be tied to the harnesses of the lead climber, and the rear climber, and then quickdraws would be placed every 15'. The climbers in the middle would just clip into the rope. Then, when they came to a QD they could just unclip it and reclip it below them. The QD's could be gathered by the last man, or left to be picked up on the descent.
Anyone ever tried anything like this? 30 QD's would be a lot, but it wouldn't be too hard to pass them all back up every 100' or so.
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For a high ladder, that would take a LOT of quickdraws which cost about $20 each, plus lots of dynamic climbing rope which is also not cheap and not as practical as static rope for most UE applications. Also, belaying a lead climber is difficult and requires quite a bit of knowledge and experience. Done wrong, it can be potentially dangerous for both the climber and belayer. So this would be a perfectly safe and practical way to do it if you happen to have the equipment and skills to do it, but for beginners I'd have to recommend lobster claws, in spite of being slower.
EDIT: I missed the part about passing the quickdraws back up. I'm not sure I know exactly what you mean by that.
[last edit 2/24/2010 12:41 AM by DJ Craig - edited 1 times]
"You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself any direction you choose. You're on your own. And you know what you know. And YOU are the one who'll decide where to go..." -Dr. Suess |
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Therrin
 
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: North of Chicago, IL
Gender: Male
*Therrin puts on the penguin-suit
| | | Re: Fall Protection
<Reply # 21 on 2/24/2010 1:15 AM >
|  | | | | Hmm, why not have person 1 and 5 lobster clawing, then 2-3-4 roped to 1 and 6-7-8-9 roped to 5? In a group, there is no reason for each person to use the langostine method, as long as everyone is attached to each other, and the person at the top to the tower. This is how I was going to climb the 880 foot TV tower last fall (before the person with the rope didn't show up, ending that plan...) |
This really isnt that hot of an idea. Just sayin. In this scenario you've got like 10 ppl on the line and only 2 clipped in. so what happens if the lowest guy in a stack falls, and pulls each successive person off grip. Then you've got 5 ppl hanging on equipment designed for single person loads. Even if lead climbing, after your first piece is set you'd have multiple pieces for a climber.
If climbing in large groups... probably best to go in sets of 2 or 3 at a time.
Lobster claws with ladder-hook biners would be great for this. It's slow compared to free-climbing, but if someone doesn't feel up to free climbing to a height they aren't comfortable with, they should work at their own pace.
Ladders < 100ft, I free climb. More than that and I'll use something to secure fall protection.
About the 'zorbers. I've used them with lobsters before, but I'd prefer to use shorter lobsters w/o the 'zorber. And, to keep your biners from coming detatched from your lanyards they do make several different kind of biner catches to hold the lanyard in place at the bottom end of the biner. They're usually wire/rubber/leather/plastic and very cheap.
Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) |
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\/adder
 
Location: DunkarooLand
Gender: Male
I'm the worst of the best but I'm in this race.
| | | Re: Fall Protection
<Reply # 22 on 2/24/2010 3:57 AM >
| | | | We just send the person with the biggest balls first and then the rest go in the order of testicular fortitude -- experience.
Of course that would still put me somewhere towards the middle/end but hey I'm in good company. 
"No risk, no reward, no fun."
"Go all the way or walk away"
escensi omnis... |
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MindHacker
Location: Suburbs of DC
Gender: Male
If you spot a terrorist arrow, pin it to the wall with your shoulder.
| | Re: Fall Protection
<Reply # 23 on 2/24/2010 4:59 AM >
| | | | Posted by bfinan0
Hmm, why not have person 1 and 5 lobster clawing...
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Because the goal is to have a quicker system, so that it'd be less likely to climb.
Posted by DJ Craig
For a high ladder, that would take a LOT of quickdraws which cost about $20 each, plus lots of dynamic climbing rope which is also not cheap and not as practical as static rope for most UE applications. Also, belaying a lead climber is difficult and requires quite a bit of knowledge and experience. Done wrong, it can be potentially dangerous for both the climber and belayer. So this would be a perfectly safe and practical way to do it if you happen to have the equipment and skills to do it, but for beginners I'd have to recommend lobster claws, in spite of being slower.
EDIT: I missed the part about passing the quickdraws back up. I'm not sure I know exactly what you mean by that.
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I wouldn't recommend buying equipment to use for this, but rock-climbers turned explorers already have this sort of equipment lying around.
Re: Passing: In lead climbing, the climber and belayer come together after every pitch (usually 60-100'), which allows the belayer to gather all the protection / QDs on his way up after the climber has gone up, so that the lead climber can use the same equipment again.
In order to keep the rope at full length so that the rear climber can't take a large fall, for a ladder, either the people in the middle would have to ferry the QDs back up, or the tail climber would need to attach via ascender, and the group would inchworm up the ladder.
The system isn't ideal, any one who falls is still probably getting banged pretty hard - much harder than using lobster claws - but the chances of falling while climbing a ladder are pretty low. This is just insurance for that .01% of a chance.
"That's just my opinion. I would, however, advocate for explosive breaching, since speed and looking cool are both concerns in my job."-Wilkinshire |
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RailGuy88
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: Where you're not...
Gender: Male
| | Re: Fall Protection
<Reply # 24 on 2/24/2010 6:02 AM >
| | | | Kinda on the same subject...
How would one descend down into these (and back up again)?
Going where others can't... |
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DJ Craig
Moderator
Location: Johnson City, TN
Gender: Male
Break the Silence
| | | | Re: Fall Protection
<Reply # 25 on 2/24/2010 6:11 AM >
| | | |
Basically using the same system I showed you at the radio tower you took me to this xmas break. But if you want to really learn everything about this stuff, get the book On Rope:
http://www.amazon....lers/dp/1879961059
It's an absolutely amazing book and it will teach you everything you'll ever need to know about ropework for UE. Or if you want to just look stuff up online, Google "Single rope technique":
http://en.wikipedi...gle_rope_technique
Basically, to ascend, you're going to have two ascenders on the rope, one attached to your feet and one on your chest. You're going to switch between sitting and standing to move each ascender up one at a time. And for the descent, look up rappelling. I highly recommend using a rack or at least something other than a figure-8 descender, in spite of the figure-8 being the most popular descend device.
While you're at it, check out this thread:
http://www.uer.ca/...d=1&threadid=77034 
"You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself any direction you choose. You're on your own. And you know what you know. And YOU are the one who'll decide where to go..." -Dr. Suess |
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\/adder
Location: DunkarooLand
Gender: Male
I'm the worst of the best but I'm in this race.
| | | Re: Fall Protection
<Reply # 26 on 2/24/2010 8:26 AM >
| | | |
Do you get a commission every time you pimp that book?
"No risk, no reward, no fun."
"Go all the way or walk away"
escensi omnis... |
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Therrin
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: North of Chicago, IL
Gender: Male
*Therrin puts on the penguin-suit
| | | Re: Fall Protection
<Reply # 27 on 2/24/2010 8:30 AM >
| | | | +1 @ what DJ Craig said.
Also, if you dont want to use a chest mounted ascender, you can use an anti-return pulley, like the petzl minitraxion, hooked through a locking biner to your harness. I find that very easy for ascents, and allows me to use any harness whether it has suspenders for a chest mounted piece or not.
Between SRT and DRT...SRT is far more usefull for UE type access. Being grouchy in my old age I think I'm only going to be using my rack for rigging now, and switching to an I'D or "stop" or something similar in the handled-mechanical descender/belay device catagory for ease of use.
Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) |
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DJ Craig
Moderator
Location: Johnson City, TN
Gender: Male
Break the Silence
| | | | Re: Fall Protection
<Reply # 28 on 2/24/2010 5:05 PM >
| | | | Posted by TheVicariousVadder
Do you get a commission every time you pimp that book?
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No, but I should totally sign up for the Amazon Affiliates Program because then I really would!
"You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself any direction you choose. You're on your own. And you know what you know. And YOU are the one who'll decide where to go..." -Dr. Suess |
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mikenike605
Location: PDX Camas, WA
i like to take pictures
| | | Re: Fall Protection
<Reply # 29 on 3/1/2010 12:46 AM >
| | | | im not sure if you guys have been talking about this the whole time since im not familiar with climbing ling, but i remember in scouts using this method to make a harness to rappel down rock faces.
http://www.trails....rness-webbing.html
I am normally for free climbing but i cant understand the concern, I would probably do the same if I were climbing this tower.
single rope technique would be cool if i had money to spend on climbing equipment.
http://www.flickr....otos/47933724@N08/ |
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\/adder
Location: DunkarooLand
Gender: Male
I'm the worst of the best but I'm in this race.
| | | Re: Fall Protection
<Reply # 30 on 3/1/2010 3:27 AM >
| | | | Everything but the kitchen sink:
Minimal SRT Gear (labeled):
IF you wanna see my SRT in action, you can check this vid here: I had to make some stupid video for a college course, just proving I can record, edit and compile video...
I was trying to kick off against the tree but it was mossy/slippery. If you can't tell I need a lot more practice. At the end, there is a vine I climbed up by hand to demonstrate the difference between my (at the moment) rather shitty SRT and my (31337 n1nj4) climbing skills. Everything is in realtime I only edited out the uninteresting ascend/descend changeover.
[last edit 3/1/2010 3:33 AM by \/adder - edited 1 times]
"No risk, no reward, no fun."
"Go all the way or walk away"
escensi omnis... |
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DJ Craig
Moderator
Location: Johnson City, TN
Gender: Male
Break the Silence
| | | | Re: Fall Protection
<Reply # 31 on 3/1/2010 4:13 AM >
| | | | Posted by mikenike605
im not sure if you guys have been talking about this the whole time since im not familiar with climbing ling, but i remember in scouts using this method to make a harness to rappel down rock faces.
http://www.trails....rness-webbing.html
I am normally for free climbing but i cant understand the concern, I would probably do the same if I were climbing this tower.
single rope technique would be cool if i had money to spend on climbing equipment.
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That type of harness is ok but not ideal. In general you should just buy a harness like this:
http://www.rei.com/category/4500075
Using a harness tied out of webbing in that way increases your risk of compartmental syndrome if you were to stay seated in the harness for too long, and also has the major disadvantage over a real harness of having a single point of failure; a break at any point in the webbing would cause the entire harness to fail. But tied harnesses are good for short ascents and descents if you can't afford a real harness, and also ok for rescue situations if an injured person was unable to put a harness on themselves (although you have to be especially careful about compartmental syndrome in rescue situations).
"You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself any direction you choose. You're on your own. And you know what you know. And YOU are the one who'll decide where to go..." -Dr. Suess |
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mikenike605
Location: PDX Camas, WA
i like to take pictures
| | | Re: Fall Protection
<Reply # 32 on 3/1/2010 7:59 AM >
| | | | ya, i figured. I rarely use it but its a good way to make a makeshift harness for minor situations
http://www.flickr....otos/47933724@N08/ |
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Krenta
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Nope, wasn't me.
| | Re: Fall Protection
<Reply # 33 on 3/4/2010 6:43 PM >
| | | | Posted by steponmebbbboom
five-point harness with two lanyards, clip rung to rung. it's all you need. you can get a harness with two lanyards for about $120 at any industrial safety or supply store. the lanyard clips-in solid and has a shock absorber that expands as you fall so you dont get jerked when you reach the end of the rope. once you get used to the clips being in your hands as you climb you'll almost forget youre wearing it.
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I just wanted to second this. They're designed for fall protection under just these sorts of circumstances, and if you're cheap, you can probably score a new harness and two lanyards on eBay with some patience for $60-70.
Aside from the safety factor, should you happen to get busted, having the correct safety equipment can sometimes be the difference between just being yelled at and being arrested. Or so I've heard.
Also, if you ever plan to try social engineering your way into a "legal" visit to any place that requires safety equipment, you'll very much appreciate having your own gear. A $30 fall-arrest harness of your own very, very much beats having to wear some filthy communal spare that nobody else wants. The same is true of hardhats... and respirators, come to think of it.
-- Krenta, who has his own fall-arrest harness, respirator, knee- and elbow-pads, hardhat, flame-retardant overshirt, hearing protection, and safety glasses... and a totally gratuitous confined-spaces entry certification. Yes, I was a boy scout, why do you ask?
Have Speed Graphic, Will Travel. |
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bfinan0
Location: Rochester, NY
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Fall Protection
<Reply # 34 on 3/4/2010 7:15 PM >
| | | | Posted by Krenta
Aside from the safety factor, should you happen to get busted, having the correct safety equipment can sometimes be the difference between just being yelled at and being arrested. Or so I've heard.
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Yes, but which way? I can see that going both ways, as if you had the proper equipment it would become much more clear exactly what you were trying to do when you got caught.
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RailGuy88
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: Where you're not...
Gender: Male
| | Re: Fall Protection
<Reply # 35 on 3/4/2010 7:59 PM >
| | | | Posted by bfinan0
Yes, but which way? I can see that going both ways, as if you had the proper equipment it would become much more clear exactly what you were trying to do when you got caught.
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Always taking the fun outta posts... *sigh*
Going where others can't... |
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steponmebbbboom
*NSFW*
| | Re: Fall Protection
<Reply # 36 on 3/5/2010 2:54 AM >
| | | | wearing ANY equipment implies you meant to do something you needed fall-arrest equipment for, at least if you are caught wearing industry-approved equipment as opposed to homestone harnesses covered in knots that may or may not be correctly tied, you can come off as being somewhat responsible.
Mentos... The Freshmaker |
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\/adder
Location: DunkarooLand
Gender: Male
I'm the worst of the best but I'm in this race.
| | | Re: Fall Protection
<Reply # 37 on 3/5/2010 5:38 AM >
| | | | 
When I see these two signs next to each other ... I feel it implies if you HAVE fall protection, you are authorized to be here, don't you?
"No risk, no reward, no fun."
"Go all the way or walk away"
escensi omnis... |
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Krenta
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Nope, wasn't me.
| | Re: Fall Protection
<Reply # 38 on 3/5/2010 5:34 PM >
| | | | Posted by bfinan0
Yes, but which way? I can see that going both ways, as if you had the proper equipment it would become much more clear exactly what you were trying to do when you got caught.
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My experience has been that a lot of time getting caught is going to entail a lecture involving reasonably well-founded concerns about how what we do is moderately dangerous, and it would be nice if we didn't undertake these special efforts to injure or kill ourselves, and that cool photos aren't worth risking our lives and those of first responders for. Likewise, my experience - and that of several people I know - is that being able to demonstrate that you've taken reasonable safety precautions can occasionally be the difference between a lecture and a trespassing ticket.
Let's be honest, it's not like you have even a 1% chance of convincingly feigning ignorance that you're not supposed to climb water towers, antenna masts, cranes, et cetera. Having a safety harness and lanyards while doing so isn't going to increase the penalties you face versus doing it butt naked, and at least potentially increases the odds of your merely getting your ass chewed out.
Have Speed Graphic, Will Travel. |
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metawaffle
King of Puns
Location: Brisbane!
Gender: Male
Purveyor of Fine Lampshades
| | | Re: Fall Protection
<Reply # 39 on 9/30/2010 3:41 AM >
| | | | Therrin put me on to these - ladder hooks from an arborist supply place. Main selling points are that they're shaped for hooking on and off rungs, they have a eyelet for tying into that is separate from the bit that opens, and they lock quite cleverly. There's a plate that sits at the base of your thumb that needs to be pushed in for the hook to open, so a normal squeezing action has it open fine, but just bashing something against it will not.
They're big, and these steel ones weigh something like a pound and a half each, but I found them smooth and convenient to use. Deadly slow compared to free climbing, but that's lobster clawing for you, right?
Anyway, +1 for gear designed for a specific purpose. They were only about US$20 each, too.
http://www.longexposure.net |
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