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 rascal
  
Location: Sydney
Gender: Female
Miss Fatal Risk
 |  |  | Radio Telescope Climbing
< on 10/26/2009 11:55 PM >
|  | | | I'm planning on climbing a huge radio telescope soon and wanted to know if anyone out there has useful tips and hints when it comes to safety and security on these things. It'll be my first dish and I plan on freeclimbing the support trellis and the hull of the dish and then abseiling into the basin itself.
My main worries are radio waves and onsite security (it's a 24hr site)
Any suggestions, ideas or first hand experiences are much appreciated.
..and now for something completely different...
1.
[last edit 10/27/2009 12:30 AM by rascal - edited 1 times]
“The most challenging aspect is the flatness. We need to create positive drainage.” - Bayard Dominick |
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MindHacker
  
Location: Suburbs of DC
Gender: Male
If you spot a terrorist arrow, pin it to the wall with your shoulder.
| | Re: Radio Telescope Climbing
<Reply # 1 on 10/27/2009 12:27 AM >
| | | | It should be safe, RF-wise speaking. It should be strong enough to climb / walk on as well. Take some carpet to keep the anchor from leaving tell-tale marks?
Might trash some data. Sounds awesome though. Be sure to take some pictures, I would love to see this!
"That's just my opinion. I would, however, advocate for explosive breaching, since speed and looking cool are both concerns in my job."-Wilkinshire |
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Loki
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Gender: Male
| | Re: Radio Telescope Climbing
<Reply # 2 on 10/27/2009 2:59 AM >
| | | | Ninja-rific!
It's a receiver dish so you won't get fried.
Is there actual security employees on site or just scientists?
Wank | Wank | Wank | Wank | Wank | Wank |
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RailGuy88
 
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: Where you're not...
Gender: Male
| | Re: Radio Telescope Climbing
<Reply # 3 on 10/27/2009 3:01 AM >
| | | | Posted by rascal
I'm planning on climbing a huge radio telescope soon...
Any suggestions, ideas or first hand experiences are much appreciated.
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Um... Those dishes (called an antenna in the industry), are okay to climb on the structure itself, but on the antenna, it's not wise. Unless you buy and bring a power meter, you will never be sure when it's in service or out of service. They are either static, sporatic, or live, and never announce when they're active.
Those antennas put out an average of 10kW of power, which would fry and kill you in 30 seconds to a minute of being exposed to the antenna.
Why would you want to climb it other that to say that you did? Very stupid. -- If we don't hear back from you, we'll know why.
- from the guy with years of RF experience.
Going where others can't... |
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rascal
Location: Sydney
Gender: Female
Miss Fatal Risk
| | | Re: Radio Telescope Climbing
<Reply # 4 on 10/27/2009 3:32 AM >
| | | | The site is owned by our largest scientific research organisation Loki. I'd expect security to be onsite, so a night mission would definitely be in order.
Railguy, thanks for your advice. I don't intend on climbing the transmitter's arms if that's where you're saying the power will be coming from. As i said, this will/would be my first dish, so it's posted in the Rookie Forum for a good reason (ie; i don't know much about the structure.) From the tidbits of information i've found on the place, i've read the telescope is VLBI capable which i believe means it is capable of two-way transmissions (meaning I can be fried.) Is that right?
There is a sister telescope (also a movie-star) that I'm also planning on doing, she looks less dangerous.
I appreciate your experience in the industry Railguy, which is why I'm asking for help on the topic.
I like climbing things, and I like saying I've done things. Luckily I don't have a pair of testicles to fry on the thing
“The most challenging aspect is the flatness. We need to create positive drainage.” - Bayard Dominick |
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Loki
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Gender: Male
| | Re: Radio Telescope Climbing
<Reply # 5 on 10/27/2009 5:27 AM >
| | | | | There is a sister telescope (also a movie-star) that I'm also planning on doing, she looks less dangerous. |
They play cricket on that one don't they?
Wank | Wank | Wank | Wank | Wank | Wank |
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unlisted
Gender: Male
| | Re: Radio Telescope Climbing
<Reply # 6 on 10/27/2009 5:30 AM >
| | | | The Dish IS part of the antenna- so anywhere in the bowl can fry you...
Not sure about your country, but up here in Canada trespassing on one of those is a very quick ticket to jail- and possible terrorism charges. (regardless of the offending person(s) intent)
Oh, plus there is pretty damn good security at most of our major dish sites- with a pretty large "no person" zone surrounding it.
Your results may vary. If you do go, please post photos, just be careful. More can fry in a persons body other than testicles.
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rascal
Location: Sydney
Gender: Female
Miss Fatal Risk
| | | Re: Radio Telescope Climbing
<Reply # 7 on 10/27/2009 6:52 AM >
| | | | Thanks guys, much has been clarified and there'll be a lot more research done before it's attempted.
And yes, they play cricket in the dish in that movie. Which might mean they turn it off sometimes...
“The most challenging aspect is the flatness. We need to create positive drainage.” - Bayard Dominick |
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35mmVAman
Location: Charlottesville and Richmond VA.
Gender: Male
They call me Iron Isoceles
| |  | Re: Radio Telescope Climbing
<Reply # 8 on 10/27/2009 7:54 PM >
| | | | Let me comment that this is NOT a good idea. Some things are best left untouched and just because it CAN be climbed does not neccesarily mean it SHOULD be climbed. Go find a water tower or a nice roof. I admire your enthusiasm for this but this isn't a wise idea. Read the radio and cellular tower thread in this forum.
Theres too many people on this site with years of RF and Microwave experience who say that these things will kill you very painfully. If the dish is energized your blood and internal organs can literally boil themselves. You'll fry from the inside out. Don't do it theres just to much to go wrong. Not to mention the fact that photographing these things even OUTSIDE the fence can warrant possible terrorism or espionage charges. When I was on FT. Meade you could get in trouble for just LOOKING at a satellite dish, much less photographing one. Oh and by the way the hairs on my neck stood up one day when I was jogging near the fence to give you an idea of the radio radiation coming off these things.
The fleet to date: "Betty" 72 Pentax (Miss her everyday), "Sneaky Pete" 85 Pentax, "Thor" 76 Konica TC
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AnAppleSnail
Location: Charlotte, NC
Gender: Male
ALL the flashlights!
| | | | Re: Radio Telescope Climbing
<Reply # 9 on 10/27/2009 9:23 PM >
| | | | Posted by 35mmVAman
The hairs on my neck stood up one day when I was jogging near the fence to give you an idea of the radio radiation coming off these things.
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Directional antennas are spooky. I was on a roof near some, and I asked the radioman how to tell if I was being RF'd. He said "If you get a headache, or suddenly go blind." Whenever my head felt weird, sure enough... a dish was behind me beaming towards downtown. Or I was too close to the high-power antenna for too long.
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bfinan0
Location: Rochester, NY
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Radio Telescope Climbing
<Reply # 10 on 10/27/2009 10:34 PM >
| | | | Posted by 35mmVAman
Not to mention the fact that photographing these things even OUTSIDE the fence can warrant possible terrorism or espionage charges. When I was on FT. Meade you could get in trouble for just LOOKING at a satellite dish, much less photographing one. Oh and by the way the hairs on my neck stood up one day when I was jogging near the fence to give you an idea of the radio radiation coming off these things.
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Keep in mind that (1) he's in Australia and they probably aren't anywhere near as concerned about terrorism Down Under, and (2) a radio TELESCOPE (of the astronomical type) is very different from a radio ANTENNA, for the reason that only one of the two transmits.
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RailGuy88
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: Where you're not...
Gender: Male
| | Re: Radio Telescope Climbing
<Reply # 11 on 10/27/2009 11:23 PM >
| | | | We're not saying this to scare people off or keep them off the towers, but more for your life and safety. I was 17 once. I know what it means to experience a thrill. But not in this way...
I own a local business that deals with nothing but repeater systems and tower facilities. I have equipment on a few ($3-6k+ in value), and if a kid climbed a tower with my equipment on it, I wouldn't be as concerned for him/her as I would be for the equipment they may have touched or harmed.
Do what you want, but should something happen and you fall, fry, or get seriously injured, just know that you'll be in much more trouble than a slap on the wrist or overnight jail time.
Tower climbing is the number one industry/job in the US for highest risks or death rates. And this applies to those using harnesses and proper equipment!
I'm done; my two cents.
Going where others can't... |
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mesomewierdo
| | Re: Radio Telescope Climbing
<Reply # 12 on 10/28/2009 1:51 AM >
| | | | Also that dish pictured... moves! IDK if they have a ladder up in the "parked/maintenance" position that becomes uselessly tilted and disjointed if they put the thing in action while you're on there.
Friend toured one of the radio telescopes legitimately, they used only diesel vehicles inside the property as spark ignition caused interference. If your cellphone is powered up and "pinging" that would not only tick them off but alert them of your existence.
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MindHacker
Location: Suburbs of DC
Gender: Male
If you spot a terrorist arrow, pin it to the wall with your shoulder.
| | Re: Radio Telescope Climbing
<Reply # 13 on 10/28/2009 2:54 AM >
| | | | Posted by rascal i've read the telescope is VLBI capable which i believe means it is capable of two-way transmissions (meaning I can be fried.) Is that right?
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VLBI scopes communicate with other VLBI scopes via coax, fiber, or nowaday with the internet, not by beaming out data, which would destroy all the incoming data. The one thing you have to watch out for is asteroid-tracking-radar, like the NSF is doing in Puerto Rico. You could ask someone though, us nerds love to talk about their jobs.
It's a telescope. If it was uplink dish, or even a downlink dish - I'd tell you stay the f*ck away from it. As it isn't, walking on it will be no more dangerous than walking across a parkinglot. You know, if it were 70' in the air, moved around on you, and would get you thrown in jail.
The reason they are so huge is because they are looking for such faint signals. Granted, I'd stay off of the receiver where it's focused in the middle, but given the faintness of these signals even that would probably be ok. If it is a double-reflection kind - you'll know, since there will be a dome in the center on the dish - it means the radio waves bounce off the dish and the center arm back to the center of the dish and will be concentrated right there - so don't go kiss it or anything. I'm guessing that's not the case because it looks like a radome and not a reflector up on the arm, but it could be either, or a radome over a reflector.
Also, mesomewierdo has a good point about your cell phone. Camera's might do the same too, especially with a flash (due to the high-frequency circuity - not the light).
"That's just my opinion. I would, however, advocate for explosive breaching, since speed and looking cool are both concerns in my job."-Wilkinshire |
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DJ Craig
 
Moderator
Location: Johnson City, TN
Gender: Male
Break the Silence
| | | | Re: Radio Telescope Climbing
<Reply # 14 on 10/28/2009 5:57 AM >
| | | | Posted by RailGuy88
Um... Those dishes (called an antenna in the industry), are okay to climb on the structure itself, but on the antenna, it's not wise. Unless you buy and bring a power meter, you will never be sure when it's in service or out of service. They are either static, sporatic, or live, and never announce when they're active.
Those antennas put out an average of 10kW of power, which would fry and kill you in 30 seconds to a minute of being exposed to the antenna. |
Huh? I mean I don't know all that much about RF but I would have thought a dish that huge would only be a receiver, not a transmitter...so why would it emit any radiation?
Why would you want to climb it other that to say that you did? Very stupid. -- If we don't hear back from you, we'll know why.
- from the guy with years of RF experience.
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I mean...climbing a satellite dish would be some cool shit. I believe you if you say it's not safe but to say it's stupid and there's no reason to do it...I strongly disagree with that.
To the OP, even if you don't end up doing this (and it does look like you really shouldn't based on the posts of people that know way more about this than me...) props for thinking outside the box and being brave enough to even consider this.
"You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself any direction you choose. You're on your own. And you know what you know. And YOU are the one who'll decide where to go..." -Dr. Suess |
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DJ Craig
Moderator
Location: Johnson City, TN
Gender: Male
Break the Silence
| | | | Re: Radio Telescope Climbing
<Reply # 15 on 10/28/2009 6:02 AM >
| | | | Posted by unlisted
Oh, plus there is pretty damn good security at most of our major dish sites- with a pretty large "no person" zone surrounding it.
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There are quite a few somewhat inactive, almost abandoned sites like this around here that have very little security. I don't know of any that are truly abandoned but I have done a semi-legit explore of a place with very similar satellites. I didn't get onto the actually satellite dishes but I did get into the tunnels and quite a few other places I wasn't supposed to be. I didn't have any issues at all with security and I'm pretty sure based on my interactions with the few staff and security personnel working there that if I had been caught, it wouldn't have been a big deal at all.
But I had a legit reason to be on the property; just not in the places I was. And I'm sure there are plenty of large satellite dishes that do have serious security and it could be hard to tell at first.
"You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself any direction you choose. You're on your own. And you know what you know. And YOU are the one who'll decide where to go..." -Dr. Suess |
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dsankt
Location: live and in the fresh
| | | | Re: Radio Telescope Climbing
<Reply # 16 on 10/28/2009 8:18 AM >
| | | | Been up a big radio telescope in the UK while it was on, but only up into the support legs. We couldn't get onto the dish, nor did we want to given its inclination at the time. It was alarmed and there were scientists and security on site.
It was certainly an adventure but as stated previous in the thread the risks may not equal the rewards - there is adequate paranoia in australia I think for it to end badly.
Plus, if it's like the UK groups of scientists wait months for their allocated window to utilise the hardware and if you ruin their experiment you could potentially wear the cost for lost dish time. Even if not, they'll be pretty fucking pissed.
sleepycity.net: watch out for the third rail baby, that shit is high voltage. urbex and urban exploration photography |
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Roadwolf
  
The Wolf!
Location: Buffalo, NY (formerly Toronto, Canada)
Gender: Male
Living on the Road and Rails.
| |  | | Re: Radio Telescope Climbing
<Reply # 17 on 10/28/2009 8:54 AM >
| | | | Posted by RailGuy88
Um... Those dishes (called an antenna in the industry), are okay to climb on the structure itself, but on the antenna, it's not wise. Unless you buy and bring a power meter, you will never be sure when it's in service or out of service. They are either static, sporatic, or live, and never announce when they're active.
Those antennas put out an average of 10kW of power, which would fry and kill you in 30 seconds to a minute of being exposed to the antenna.
Why would you want to climb it other that to say that you did? Very stupid. -- If we don't hear back from you, we'll know why.
- from the guy with years of RF experience.
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Now I am no expert of the subject of radio 'telescopes', but I do understand the theories and I know what their purpose is. It is my understanding that few, if any radio telescopes actually transmit RF. Most if not all of them receive signals (in the form of data) from distant stars, which are several light years away. The thought of trying to send signals to stars with these telescopes is kind of loony as it would take so long for the signal to get there. Besides we create enough residual RF on this planet that we don't need to be transmitting messages via such devices. The theory that these dishes actually transmit messages is - as far as I am aware - very fictional and only generally seen in movies.
I fully understand the dangers of RF having also worked in the industry for several years.
That being said... Yes, Climbing towers and other structures should be left to people who are professionally trained. Always use a harness - and use it safely. We don't want to read about another urban explorer who has been killed doing something stupid. Also, the outer edge of these dishes tend to have mesh safety netting of some sort, which would be very difficult to climb on from below. I doubt you would be able to flip from the bottom structural assembly to the upper radio telescope surface easily, unless you find an inner access hatch - which will likely be alarmed.
Also some telescopes - radio and optic, do have guiding lasers and other such high power instruments which help with directing the antenna. If you know your stuff, these devices would be fairly easy to identify and avoid, but if not, then you may indeed run into exposure problems. They wouldn't use the whole telescope dish for such devices as that would cause interference in their signal and possible data corruption. That being said - unless you want to freak some people out - I would advise you not to bring your cell phone or any other such electronic device onto the dish. We don't need any red herrings telling us that ET's are out there looking for us... lol
[last edit 10/28/2009 8:55 AM by Roadwolf - edited 1 times]
Add me on Skype or Steam: Roadwolf611
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RailGuy88
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: Where you're not...
Gender: Male
| | Re: Radio Telescope Climbing
<Reply # 19 on 11/5/2009 4:57 AM >
| | | | New forum: Tower Climbing Industry
Come join us today!
Going where others can't... |
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