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UER Forum > Archived Rookie Forum > When you're mid climb and... (Viewed 627 times)
Lucifer 


Location: Hamilton Ontario




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When you're mid climb and...
< on 3/19/2009 2:58 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
So I'm going to get into a couple places via climbing and I like to just run around on rooftops.

What if let say I'm half way up a wall and security sees me?

I was laughing the other day on the bus because I was having a chat with a security guard (totally off topic) and looking at this guy I don't think he could run to call the cops before I'd be three miles away.

But lets say I'm on the second story of a three story climb, what do you do?

All of a sudden theres a flashlight on you and you're told not to move or? Like what happens there haha.

Ok I only really stay in the GTA so those are the laws I'm looking at.

What kind of trouble can I get into for running across my city on the rooftops?

programmer437 


Location: Columbia, SC; Charlotte, NC
Gender: Male




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Re: When you're mid climb and...
<Reply # 1 on 3/19/2009 4:52 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Check your laws. Often times, security guards aren't even allowed to touch you. Generally, they're just going to ask you to leave, anyways. So my personal advice: Climb down and leave.

I was spotted climbing down a crane a couple of months back. The security guard mumbled something at me and then called the cops, but I was gone by the time they got there.

It really depends on how quickly they can respond to the call.

"I don't care if you're urban explorers or urban infiltrators or URBAN LEGENDS!"
BLiP23 


Location: Houston
Gender: Male


Whats next

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Re: When you're mid climb and...
<Reply # 2 on 3/19/2009 5:50 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I always wondered bout this myself! The one situation I have had before we jumped down and ran but the guard was just driving by often hadnt really spotted us yet! If I was spot I would just climb down and if the guard looked fit I would try to say im sorry and see if he would let me go before just running now if he said he was calling the cops I would run like you wouldnt believe. If it was a jelly eating guard I would just drop down and RUN.

The world is my playground I will not be held back!
Lucifer 


Location: Hamilton Ontario




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Re: When you're mid climb and...
<Reply # 3 on 3/19/2009 6:37 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
So I've actually been beaten and assaulted by "theft prevention"

What happened was after purchasing over $50 worth of items at a $1 store I just wanted to get the hell out of there my 2 year old was screaming her lungs out and I just wanted to get her diaper done and go home. I had cash on me too, I was not stealing but I guess my kid reached out of the stroller and grabbed something, in her fit she threw it behind her and I left the store with unpaid merch.

I was told that because I stole that I should not charge her for bashing my head into a steel shelf, kidnapping my kid or slamming my face into the pavement to cuff me.

So I wonder aside from laws what a security guard WILL do over what they CAN do and what I can do to retaliate if they actually beat the crap out of me.

In that case I was not willingly participating in shoplifting, I didn't mean to do it I even threw five bucks and the item at her and said "Let it go, I HAVE money I didn't mean to steal anything"

But when I'm roofing and climbing I am willingly participating in an activity that may be considered illegal depending on circumstance.

The one building I want into (the Lyric its in your database I bet) Is NEXT TO the police station. I'm staying away from it for now but in all honesty here if I can't find any other way in I will climb in.

I do need to look up the local laws I guess, any ideas where I can start on that?

I climb stupid stuff randomly out of fun. It's in my blood, it's a habit like a drug. My neighbor just finished patching me up and pulling out my slivers because I randomly climb stuff *snicker*

So can I get in serious trouble for hanging out on a roof?

Are cops likely to arrest me if I'm just on a rooftop with no tools?

I've thought about getting a harness I have gloves and as you all know I'm in the market for shoes right now, is that heat?

Not like I'm packing a crowbar but still!

MindHacker 


Location: Suburbs of DC
Gender: Male


If you spot a terrorist arrow, pin it to the wall with your shoulder.

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Re: When you're mid climb and...
<Reply # 4 on 3/20/2009 6:17 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
You'll get trespassing, maybe they'll try to make b&e stick. But private security can't detain you, so just leave.

I just jump off, and wander/parkour my way away. Makes it obvious I'm not a meth-head, and gets me away from the situation.

Some private institutions will fine you (if you are part of them) for roofing. Apartments sometimes, my school will hit you with 500$. Thats about as bad as it gets, mostly just to discourage people from doing things that could get them sued.

Unless I heard a gun cock, I'd still be climbing (up or down) depending on how to get away. On top of the local school there are a few ways down, so depending where I'm spotted I can sprint to the opposite side and away, buying my a minute on the pursuers, who aren't likely to be as in shape as me anyway.

"That's just my opinion. I would, however, advocate for explosive breaching, since speed and looking cool are both concerns in my job."-Wilkinshire
Lucifer 


Location: Hamilton Ontario




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Re: When you're mid climb and...
<Reply # 5 on 3/20/2009 1:16 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
So my good friend who loves law looked into it for me

TELL ME RIGHT NOW IF THIS IS WRONG

In HAMILTON Ontario

A security guard can actually have arms (but they have to have a special license and not many of them actually do)

Cops and guards must see you pull and aim AND fire or lunge at them with some kind of weapon before they draw theirs.

Could be as bad as Michale Moore portrayed NY? Orange Wallet?

Guards here can detain you. They can cuff you and call the cops.

When the cops get there the best thing to do is say "Look, I'm a Photographer" and show them the outside pictures you'd obtained on the camera's internal memory after popping out that card.

My angle is proven because I AM an artist in my community, although I am a painter and mural artist and well known writer (you could scarcely tell!) I do work for an art gallery and I do have my art in more than one public place in this city. I'll have some photos up soon.

Now I am told as long as I used public means of getting onto roofs and I show no intent of breaking in and dont actually go into the building or and gated off area I might be ok.

They can charge me but with a good enough lawyer I can prove that I was snapping shots of the city to contribute to the current contest "Share your Hamilton Story" Which YEAH I'll be submitting some of my roof shots to, I'd love to have my story published!

I'm going to the park to practice I've been watching some urban vids and you know, Im going to start small and next season Im aiming to be able to jump alleys and flawlessly flip off two story buildings into a roll. I can already scurry up the side of a wall or pipe. Lets get it going ! I am loving this.

Went out and underclimbed some fire escapes and got onto residential last night!

yokes 


Location: Toronto
Gender: Male


I aim to misbehave

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Re: When you're mid climb and...
<Reply # 6 on 3/20/2009 1:23 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
There are no public means of getting on a roof (that you're not supposed to be on).

"Great architecture has only two natural enemies: water and stupid men." - Richard Nickel
G.U. 


Location: Sudbury/Meaford, ON Canada QC
Gender: Male


Get your F****** towel ready.

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Re: When you're mid climb and...
<Reply # 7 on 3/20/2009 2:59 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Trespass to Property Act of Ontario is provincial law in Ontario dealing with illegal entry into private and public property. As a provincial law, the penalties and mechanisms of enforcement are also provincial. This is important inasmuch as, under the Canadian system, criminal law is within the realm of the federal authority, so anyone violating this Act would be subject to quasi-criminal not full criminal enforcement. The Act is an attempt to put on the statute books what was formerly recognized by the common law. It is most often used by private property owners to keep unwanted individuals off the property. There are many methods of notifying unwanted individuals that they have been banned (for future access) but the most common is a personal notice to the offender.


SO as I'm understanding THAT...A cop would have to track down and notify the property owner of say...an apartment building or grocery to even begin the process of charging you or banning you from the site. MOST cops aren't as zealous about this kind of thing as long as you don't seem to be intending on a B&E... Public property I wouldn't worry about just don't act suspicious.

Most of all, you seem bright enough...Just know the immediate risks (and there ARE risks in almost everything we do as UE's) and see if your comfortable with that. Then go for it/walk away.

IMHO as long as your not loitering around on the top of a building in sight and KEEP MOVING your perfectly safe...

~"Why did the geologist take his girlfriend to the quarry? She wanted to get a little boulder, and He wanted to get his rocks off."~ ~When your hands are tied, Kick...Ass ~ My Flickr!
\/adder 


Location: DunkarooLand
Gender: Male


I'm the worst of the best but I'm in this race.

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Re: When you're mid climb and...
<Reply # 8 on 3/20/2009 4:53 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Just don't throw snowballs at ambulances...

Keep climbing as someone already said. They probably won't follow you up. And if you are descending. Don't even look at them. Pretend they aren't there and walk away. If they stop you, refuse to answer questions and repeatedly ask "Are you holding me against my will" Until you get a yes or no. If they say "Yes" refuse to say another word. If they say "No" then leave. They can charge you with B&E or whatever the hell they want; but they have to make their case to the Judge or DA the same as you.

But I doubt they'd even notice you. People really do never look up in life. We had 6 kids simultaneously climbing a fire escape (to a dead end) on a busy street in Boston; not one person noticed. Not even the cops who drove and walked by.

"No risk, no reward, no fun."
"Go all the way or walk away"
escensi omnis...
MindHacker 


Location: Suburbs of DC
Gender: Male


If you spot a terrorist arrow, pin it to the wall with your shoulder.

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Re: When you're mid climb and...
<Reply # 9 on 3/21/2009 6:42 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by GrounderUnder
SO as I'm understanding THAT...A cop would have to track down and notify the property owner of say...an apartment building or grocery to even begin the process of charging you or banning you from the site.


I think that there is paperwork the landowner can file beforehand to allow the cops to jump to "Hey GTFO or we'll arrest you"


"That's just my opinion. I would, however, advocate for explosive breaching, since speed and looking cool are both concerns in my job."-Wilkinshire
NoSuchPerson 

Stop, or I'll ask you again!






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Re: When you're mid climb and...
<Reply # 10 on 3/21/2009 12:26 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Mobile
 
Laws regarding Trespass vary greatly depending on your country, state/province and sometimes even city. What I'm saying below applies to Ontario only - so don't scream if its different somewhere else, this is Ontario *only* (and it applies to ALL of Ontario, regardless of city).

The Trespass to Property Act states quite clearly that unless you can prove you're allowed to be somewhere, you can be charged. Owner's blessing is not a requirement.
In Ontario, a Security Guard is permitted to conduct arrests and they ARE allowed to use force in conducting that arrest, provided the force used is in proportion to the threat level percieved (IE, if you come at someone with a closed fist punch, they're well within their rights to punch back, but if you just grabbed their arm, a kick to the head wouldn't be justified).

There are 3 times you can be arrested for trespassing:

Entering property when that entry is prohibited. This can be because you've been banned from the property, or it can be due to posted signs, or it can be because you don't have proof on your person that you're allowed to be there.

Commit prohibited act on property. This would be for example, smoking where a no smoking sign is posted, or basically doing anything on property that the owner or occupier doesn't permit. Note that a Security Guard is considered an occupier, so if they tell you something is prohibited, its in your best interest to listen as they can dictate what's prohibited and despite common belief, it does NOT have to be posted.

Lastly, you can be arrested for Fail to leave when directed. This is pretty aparant - if you're told to leave and you don't, you can be arrested.

These 3 sections are what sets a Security Guard apart from a regular citizen. A citizen can arrest anyone he/she finds commiting an indictable offence, just the same as a Security Guars (IE, you witness an assault take place, you can arrest the person you witnessed commit the assault). A regular Joe cannot arrest for TPA violations. At the end of the day, this means that if a Security Guard tells you to beat it, you'd best do so, as they have the legal right to arrest you and to use force if necessary.

With regards to a Security Guard not being able to touch you - that isn't true in Ontario. Without getting all lawyer-ish, there are a few specific occasions where the use of force is legally allowed.

-to prevent the commission of an offence.
-to defend ones self against unprovoked assault.
-to prevent assault.
-to remove a trespasser.
-to affect an arrest.

These apply to anyone, not just a Security Guard. It does however go on to say that any person using more force than is necessary is criminally liable, and can be convicted of assault and using excessive force, if they do.

So to put it in brief: yes, a Security Guard can arrest you, and yes, he/she is permitted to use force in doing so, provided such force isn't excessive.

Unit calling radio say again?
NoSuchPerson 

Stop, or I'll ask you again!






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Re: When you're mid climb and...
<Reply # 11 on 3/21/2009 12:45 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Mobile
 
Also, with respect to the Police being able to charge you on private property...

The only people allowed to enforce the Trespass to Property Act is the owner of a property, an occupier of a property (such as an employee, or a Security Guard) or someone who is acting as an agent to the owner. Notice it doesn't say a Police Officer. When a Security Guard arrests for Trespass, the officer is charging the person as a result of the Guard's arrest. Therefore, the Officer doesn't need to arrest the person, as they're already under arrest. (An arrest made by any citizen, including a Security Guard, has just as much legal "power" than that of a Police Officer).

There are however times when a Police Officer can enter private property and arrest for Trespass. This is only when the owner of that property has authorized the Police to act as an agent on the property. This is pretty common for any building where the public is permitted, such as a shopping mall, office building, educational institution, transit stations, arenas, etc...

Unit calling radio say again?
Lucifer 


Location: Hamilton Ontario




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Re: When you're mid climb and...
<Reply # 12 on 3/21/2009 3:19 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
So let me get this straight

Being that I'm in downtown Hamilton and 90% of the buildings I climb on are completely unguarded because they are either downtown stores owned by immigrants that don't speak English.

And I'm NOT being racist.
Not saying that people who don't speak English aren't smart, but I know a lot of them don't read our laws about trespassing or even think of them. I know my own landlord did not read the laws about tenancy, well no landlords ever do thats how I get free rent.

I do all my business in the stores that I climb around on at night, during the day.
They are very nice people, simple and living an honest life. Most of them do not have a word of English, the rest of them can say hello and thank you. So I doubt, I highly doubt they have security around their buildings anywhere past an alarm system and locks. Because honestly, I don't want to break into any of them. I just like walking around and exploring the night by roof top.

So having that said, the majority of the roofs I'm on are unguarded.

So unless the owner tells the cops they can watch it, then I'm good.

Otherwise if I get caught I can just say I was cutting through and I'll be on my way right?
[last edit 3/21/2009 3:21 PM by Lucifer - edited 1 times]

NoSuchPerson 

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Re: When you're mid climb and...
<Reply # 13 on 3/21/2009 6:10 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Mobile
 
Generally speaking, yes.

Despite what people choose to believe, the Police aren't out to get you ;)

Unit calling radio say again?
\/adder 


Location: DunkarooLand
Gender: Male


I'm the worst of the best but I'm in this race.

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Re: When you're mid climb and...
<Reply # 14 on 3/21/2009 6:43 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by exkalibur
Generally speaking, yes.

Despite what people choose to believe, the Police aren't out to get you ;)


They would rather patrol a dunkin donuts parking lot for two hours, than have to sit outside an abandoned building for two hours just to bust your punk ass.

They would rather not have to deal with it in the first place.

"No risk, no reward, no fun."
"Go all the way or walk away"
escensi omnis...
Lucifer 


Location: Hamilton Ontario




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Re: When you're mid climb and...
<Reply # 15 on 3/22/2009 4:21 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Oh yea on Halloween here I was at a very busy club downtown and my buddy went to get his coat from the parking lot behind the club, where he saw a guy getting the blood beat out of his face three cops biked by it.

I'm not so worried about getting caught. Face it the people that stick out as regular fixtures in downtown Hamilton are the bike police, the drug dealers and the prostitutes. They are out in numbers. I see ten hookers, cops, and dealers every day downtown and all of them exist peacefully together.

If I was a policeman I could make twenty busts in an hour easily just on my way to timmies.

But they don't even bother the crack heads and squatters, and the city is full of them. Not like they're going to have a quota shortage.

If a cop can bike right by a coke dealer in front of the downtown mall (usually 3 or 4 there) then that same cop isn't going to go after me for being on a roof hey who knows it might be my roof, why bother? Most the stores here have upstair lofts. Those are the buildings I usually go on.


Ok...Now new ish question.

I want to climb the armories.... ... I like the roof shape... I found 40 ways to do it...but I don't want jail....

Insitor 


Location: above and below the midwest
Gender: Male


a firm believer in brawn over brains

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Re: When you're mid climb and...
<Reply # 16 on 3/22/2009 10:08 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by Lucifer
I don't want jail....


then don't let yourself get caught.

Lucifer 


Location: Hamilton Ontario




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Re: When you're mid climb and...
<Reply # 17 on 3/22/2009 10:13 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I'll wait until I know I can outrun the military guard before I decide to climb the armories but I really do want to, the roof is so appealing to me. I also hate buildings like the tallest tower in Hamilton because it has perfect footholds and stuff to climb to the top. Why are all the easy and fun climbs dangerous/illegal?

Oh Sigh

AnAppleSnail 


Location: Charlotte, NC
Gender: Male


ALL the flashlights!

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Re: When you're mid climb and...
<Reply # 18 on 3/23/2009 12:57 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by Lucifer
Why are all the easy and fun climbs dangerous/illegal?

Oh Sigh


Because of people who did it decades before we were born, basically.

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Lexi 


Location: Petty Harbour, NL
Gender: Female


I don't bite, I swear.

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Re: When you're mid climb and...
<Reply # 19 on 3/23/2009 1:54 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by Lucifer
I'll wait until I know I can outrun the military guard before I decide to climb the armories but I really do want to, the roof is so appealing to me. I also hate buildings like the tallest tower in Hamilton because it has perfect footholds and stuff to climb to the top. Why are all the easy and fun climbs dangerous/illegal?

Oh Sigh


Climbing the armories seems incredibly disrespectful and inappropriate to me. That building is a place of respect for who have died and for those who are willing to die for their country. It's a historical building that exists as a shrine to men and women of valour and courage.

You can roll your eyes, but I think it's best to climb elsewhere. DND property isn't a playground.

Edit: I fail.
[last edit 3/23/2009 2:00 AM by Lexi - edited 2 times]

[15:00:33] <SeeThirty> cause you're not likely to be anywhere that other people haven't been who didn't have protection
[15:00:41] <SeeThirty> still better safe than lexi
UER Forum > Archived Rookie Forum > When you're mid climb and... (Viewed 627 times)
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