 |
|
|
UER Store
|
|
order your copy of Access All Areas today!
|
|
|
|
Activity
|
|
810 online
Server Time:
2024-04-19 05:09:37
|
|
|
 DJ Craig
         
Moderator
Location: Johnson City, TN
Gender: Male
Break the Silence
 |  |  |  | Bad air in Drains? wtf?
< on 3/15/2009 4:47 PM >
|  | | | So the thread about the newspaper article from Boston that mentioned the "Urban Explorer Network" got me browsing UrbanExplorers.net...and I found this on their safety page:
Bad air. This is a concern in any enclosed space, especially drains. If people in the group start feeling sick, light-headed, dizzy, etc., get back out into fresh air ASAP. Don't count on smelling bad air; many deadly gaseous compounds have no odor. In addition to bad air, combustible gasses can be present. Think very carefully about open flame or sparks unless you're sure the drain is safe. And never drop a burning rag etc. down a shaft to test the air. This can cause not only structural damage but also personal injury if it happens to set off a fireball. Explosions which take out entire city blocks have been known to orginate in drains so think twice. Additionally, keep in mind the ever-present possibility of industrial and biohazard waste being dumped in drains. If you start seeing hypodermics, bizarre sludge, etc. be careful.
|
http://urbanexplor...ontent/view/47/32/
wtf? Bad air in a drain?? Do drains not have [/i]extremely[/i] good ventilation? Obviously, in any drain, there has to be large openings where water flows in and out, and air will be perfectly capable of doing the same. Plus, the constant water flow and occasional flooding will keep air moving through. And where the hell would flammable gasses come from? Perhaps if there were a leak in a gas pipe...but that would be no more likely than a leaky gas pipe in any safe, public building, would it? And once again, I would think there would be too much ventilation for it to build up. In order to get dangerous gasses from bacteria, you would need zero ventilation, stagnant water and otherwise perfect conditions for the bacteria to live in. That just doesn't happen in drains!
Am I wrong about all of that, or is the site wrong?
"You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself any direction you choose. You're on your own. And you know what you know. And YOU are the one who'll decide where to go..." -Dr. Suess |
|
AnAppleSnail
Location: Charlotte, NC
Gender: Male
ALL the flashlights!
| | | | Re: Bad air in Drains? wtf?
<Reply # 1 on 3/15/2009 5:00 PM >
| | | | Posted by DJ Craig
So the thread about the newspaper article from Boston that mentioned the "Urban Explorer Network" got me browsing UrbanExplorers.net...and I found this on their safety page:
http://urbanexplor...ontent/view/47/32/
wtf? Bad air in a drain?? Do drains not have [/i]extremely[/i] good ventilation? Obviously, in any drain, there has to be large openings where water flows in and out, and air will be perfectly capable of doing the same. Plus, the constant water flow and occasional flooding will keep air moving through. And where the hell would flammable gasses come from? Perhaps if there were a leak in a gas pipe...but that would be no more likely than a leaky gas pipe in any safe, public building, would it? And once again, I would think there would be too much ventilation for it to build up. In order to get dangerous gasses from bacteria, you would need zero ventilation, stagnant water and otherwise perfect conditions for the bacteria to live in. That just doesn't happen in drains!
Am I wrong about all of that, or is the site wrong?
|
My answer: "Enclosed Spaces" are legally defined as 'a space not designed for long-term occupation'; usually they're missing ventilation. Any ventilated drain will have good air unless someone is piping in bulk exhaust. I was in a tunnel that was closed at both ends yesterday, and it had enough ventilation from an open trapdoor for me and Avius to crawl all over without getting particularly short of breath. Basically, they're talking about Enclosed Spaces, which most stormwater drains are not. However, many drainers spend time in CSO tunnels, which can get funky. In that case, I could see a buildup of super-naus.
Tthe only gases you're likely to encounter in a hypothetical nearly-stagnant stormwater drain are oxygen replacers, which have obvious symptoms: Headache, extra dizziness, shortness of breath. They also affect you slowly. The only few to watch out for aren't likely to build up fast enough even in a weird drain that was somehow nearly sealed. Incidentally, I have indeed crawled under a construction site's gas line in a drain. But its leaking would be as obvious as that of any other leaky gas line! Note that nasty gases can definitely arise from bulk decay of sewage. That's a different story than the drains in your town, for example. (I gotta get out there sometime)
My rule? If there's no airflow, don't go. It's never made me turn back yet.
Achievement Unlocked
|
|
DJ Craig
Moderator
Location: Johnson City, TN
Gender: Male
Break the Silence
| | | | Re: Bad air in Drains? wtf?
<Reply # 2 on 3/15/2009 5:11 PM >
| | | | Yeah, I definitely realize that sewers are a completely different story. And if you're dropping down an anonymous manhole, then you don't know where you might end up. But if you know that you're in a storm drain, then I would think that wouldn't be an issue, and that section of the site is talking specifically about drains.
Anyway, thanks for the info, and yes, you should get over here!
"You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself any direction you choose. You're on your own. And you know what you know. And YOU are the one who'll decide where to go..." -Dr. Suess |
|
Quarantine
Location: Denver
Gender: Female
retired former old-school UE'er
| | Re: Bad air in Drains? wtf?
<Reply # 3 on 3/15/2009 5:29 PM >
| | | | My only bad air experience was wading through a 48" RCP with crappy airflow and lots of rotting leaves in the bottom. The air was so stagnant I got pretty lightheaded and got out pronto. I think it's mostly smaller drains (and maybe drains with fewer gutterboxes?) with this problem since they tend to have less airflow.
|
|
AnAppleSnail
Location: Charlotte, NC
Gender: Male
ALL the flashlights!
| | | | Re: Bad air in Drains? wtf?
<Reply # 4 on 3/15/2009 5:31 PM >
| | | | Posted by Quarantine
My only bad air experience was wading through a 48" RCP with crappy airflow and lots of rotting leaves in the bottom. The air was so stagnant I got pretty lightheaded and got out pronto. I think it's mostly smaller drains (and maybe drains with fewer gutterboxes?) with this problem since they tend to have less airflow.
|
I like ones with a large outfall, and a large infall or several ones. A strong temperature difference between the drain and the surface seems to help, driving a cave wind sort of effect...
Achievement Unlocked
|
|
\/adder
 
Location: DunkarooLand
Gender: Male
I'm the worst of the best but I'm in this race.
| | | Re: Bad air in Drains? wtf?
<Reply # 5 on 3/15/2009 5:33 PM >
| | | | You are more likely to get sick from mold growths, algae, etc. Or get attacked by animals that are sheltering in the drains.
"No risk, no reward, no fun."
"Go all the way or walk away"
escensi omnis... |
|
MindHacker
Location: Suburbs of DC
Gender: Male
If you spot a terrorist arrow, pin it to the wall with your shoulder.
| | Re: Bad air in Drains? wtf?
<Reply # 6 on 3/16/2009 5:23 AM >
| | | | If there is a inlet that isn't completely submerged and an outlet that isn't completely submerged, you're usually ok, since the heavier-than-air gasses have nowhere to pool - they'll just run out the bottom with the water. I mean, you could design a drain that would trap and build up gasses, but it wouldn't drain well.
And rotting organic material => "gasses". So it's possible, depending on how clean your drain is, but unlikely.
"That's just my opinion. I would, however, advocate for explosive breaching, since speed and looking cool are both concerns in my job."-Wilkinshire |
|
cr400
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Gender: Male
| | Re: Bad air in Drains? wtf?
<Reply # 7 on 3/16/2009 7:02 PM >
| | | | Guys! Just be carefull! I spend a fair amount of time in manholes, and tunnels.
I wont try to scare you, but there are some very real dangers that could prove fatal if you're not carefull. Talk to your local city crew that you see going down into drains, buy them a sixpack, or a burrito. whatever info you get from them could actually save your life. Ask them what is the most dangerous part of going down into the drains. Ask them after you buy them the sixpack.
Good luck, stay safe.
You can see a million miles tonite, but you can't get very far.
Honorary member of UER lifetime acheivement award winning, 2Xplorations and Guide Services, Texas. |
|
Boffo
Moderator
Location: Smithers, BC
Gender: Male
HONK! HONK!
| | Re: Bad air in Drains? wtf?
<Reply # 8 on 3/16/2009 8:22 PM >
| | | | Some city workers died in my town from noxious gasses in a drain.
http://www.uer.ca/...fid=1&msgid=637331
This stuff happens.
Here's a lockpick. It might be handy if you, the master of unlocking, take it with you. |
|
Rinzler
Location: New Jersey
Nomad
| | | Re: Bad air in Drains? wtf?
<Reply # 9 on 3/16/2009 10:49 PM >
| | | | Posted by TheVicariousVadder
You are more likely to get sick from mold growths, algae, etc. Or get attacked by animals that are sheltering in the drains.
|
Dont forget about the occasional bum also!
|
|
\/adder
Location: DunkarooLand
Gender: Male
I'm the worst of the best but I'm in this race.
| | | Re: Bad air in Drains? wtf?
<Reply # 10 on 3/17/2009 4:17 AM >
| | | | Posted by Plaid
Dont forget about the occasional bum also!
|
Or college kids who are poking smot and clambaking inside the drain!
"No risk, no reward, no fun."
"Go all the way or walk away"
escensi omnis... |
|
MindHacker
Location: Suburbs of DC
Gender: Male
If you spot a terrorist arrow, pin it to the wall with your shoulder.
| | Re: Bad air in Drains? wtf?
<Reply # 11 on 3/17/2009 5:08 AM >
| | | |
telcom vault =/= a drain.
"That's just my opinion. I would, however, advocate for explosive breaching, since speed and looking cool are both concerns in my job."-Wilkinshire |
|
IIVQ
Location: La Sud-Est du cité majeur du North-Holland (Bijlmer), .NL
Gender: Male
Back in Urbex!
| |  |  | | Re: Bad air in Drains? wtf?
<Reply # 12 on 3/17/2009 10:57 AM >
| | | | Today, one person died while climbing into a manure tank. His father, who tied to rescue him, passed out almost instantaneously, but he got rescued by a neighbor and the fire service.
Moral of the story: even in fairly open rooms, deadly gases can build up to such an extent that they can knock you off your feet in seconds. If you pass out while in such a room, there's very little hope of ever recovering.
In fact, a few years back a basement that had filled with carbon dioxide (IIRC) gas took out 8 people (1 entire family and 2 of their neighbors) who, one after another, came to check on the others.
Tijmen
Posted by MapMan | 18/9/2005 19:25 | Hedy Lamarr made porn?
Posted by turbozutek | 20/9/2005 2:29 | Dude, educate us! |
|
critter
| | Re: Bad air in Drains? wtf?
<Reply # 13 on 3/17/2009 11:36 AM >
| | | | Another thing to worry about is some of the commercial chemicals used to clean stopped up drains. They make Mr. Plumber look like "my little pony". Then there are the illegal dumpers. When a big rain comes they dump their waste into the drains. So if you feel light headed, smell chemical odors, your nose or lungs start burning or eyes start burning or watering, get the hell out of there. And buy some rubber boots. Almost every pair of shoes I have worn into a drain end up falling apart.
|
|
IIVQ
Location: La Sud-Est du cité majeur du North-Holland (Bijlmer), .NL
Gender: Male
Back in Urbex!
| | | | | Re: Bad air in Drains? wtf?
<Reply # 14 on 3/17/2009 11:46 AM >
| | | | Posted by critter
Another thing to worry about is some of the commercial chemicals used to clean stopped up drains. They make Mr. Plumber look like "my little pony". Then there are the illegal dumpers. When a big rain comes they dump their waste into the drains. So if you feel light headed, smell chemical odors, your nose or lungs start burning or eyes start burning or watering, get the hell out of there. And buy some rubber boots. Almost every pair of shoes I have worn into a drain end up falling apart.
|
I agree with you, if anything at all even just nags "this is not ok", get out. Problem is, that for some gases, it'll be quite hard to tell the symptopms, or to act on them (such as when "fainting" will be the first symptom)
Posted by MapMan | 18/9/2005 19:25 | Hedy Lamarr made porn?
Posted by turbozutek | 20/9/2005 2:29 | Dude, educate us! |
|
Capt Canada
Gender: Male
| | Re: Bad air in Drains? wtf?
<Reply # 15 on 3/17/2009 7:59 PM >
| | | | It all depends... I've been in small closed in drains, with great air quality... and I've also been in a roughly 4800 purely storm drain that made me sick to my stomach. The smell was so strong I had to turn back. And it was only a drain to replace an old creek, I would have thought that it would be fairly clean water...
And it was only 100 or so meters from this outfall.
Looks are deceiving and drains come with a host of risk that can kill you. But that's what makes it fun.
|
|
critter
| | Re: Bad air in Drains? wtf?
<Reply # 16 on 3/18/2009 5:10 AM >
| | | | Nothing like a near death experience.
|
|
DrRJones
Location: Hayward Ca
Gender: Male
I am become death
| | | Re: Bad air in Drains? wtf?
<Reply # 17 on 3/18/2009 7:03 AM >
| | | | WHy dont you go invest in a gas detector and be real.
I wish i was underground, that's where the love is. |
|
hatsumi
| | | Re: Bad air in Drains? wtf?
<Reply # 18 on 3/18/2009 10:56 AM >
| | | |
gas detectors are expensive.
i guess they can be hired though if its that much a concern.
i've been in my fair share of drains and only once or twice felt suspicious about air quality..no surprises this was close to industry so the likelihood of illegal dumping is quite high.
there is no easy answer, as said the worst stuff sometimes is almost odourless and you can be some distance into it without knowing.
unless your well experienced or have prior knowledge of the conditions its always good to explore drains with caution and not alone ( basic rule of thumb anyway )
we take risks, calculate them and do the best we can to minimise them like any adventurer
drainasaurus maximus |
|
UnderGrounder
Location: Blue Mountians Area
Gender: Male
| | Re: Bad air in Drains? wtf?
<Reply # 19 on 3/18/2009 3:32 PM >
| | | | Enclosed spaces especially any type of drainage or storm sewer can be extremely dangerous. Even if it feels like there is some air exchange there could easily still be very deadly gasses in those pipes. The biggest problem is that different gasses all have different specific gravity's, some our heavier then air, and some lighter. Obviously the lighter ones like say those from gasoline will be carried away to some extent by moving air. As well some will sit at different levels, for instance if you have a 10 foot deep sump, the bottom 4 feet could be an extremely toxic gas that could kill you withen 2 mins of being in it, then you could have 5 feet of decent air that you could breath no problem, and the top foot may have some thing floating around in it that will give you a mild headache. That's maby a little drastic of an example but i think you get the idea. You may be crawling through a tunnel and have fresh air 4 feet up where your head is, but that does not mean that down by your feet the air couldn't kill you, There are tons of gas's out there that have no warning signs of smell or taist, and could kill you in a very short time.
From a search and rescue point of view, as firefighters any time we go in to a confined space we carry fully enclosed SCBA for supplied air, and always have a safety line attached to us to pull us out if some thing were to happen. As well as contently testing the air with a 5 gas detector. Obviously this is way overkill for Draining and all intensive purposes of those on this site. *or well most* Also rember just because your wearing a duel cartridge mask respirator means it may filter out the majority of any containment in the area, But if there is no air, because what ever gas down there is an oxygen replacement, your still going to be just as dead.
Rember there are always unexpected things you wouldn't think would happen, how are you to know that a day ago there wasn't a car crash with a tanker truck full of Liquid Nitrogen on a city street above you, one part of the tunnel may be full of gasoline vapor and the other may have some reminents of Liquid nitrogen floating on top of the water. You may smell the gas, but your only going to know that the reason this sewer was a little foggy today was because some thing is wrong when your toes start freezing off.
Not to stear any one away from draining, just to say, that which you dont know. Can kill you. 
Say hello to my Boom Stick! |
|
|
|
All content and images copyright © 2002-2024 UER.CA and respective creators. Graphical Design by Crossfire.
To contact webmaster, or click to email with problems or other questions about this site:
UER CONTACT
View Terms of Service |
View Privacy Policy |
Server colocation provided by Beanfield
This page was generated for you in 125 milliseconds. Since June 23, 2002, a total of 738469422 pages have been generated.
|
|
