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UER Forum > Archived Rookie Forum > Alarms (Viewed 343 times)
funkyelectrician 


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Alarms
< on 3/9/2009 9:48 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Anyone here familiar with alarms?

Specifically, when the power is cut to a building with a monitored alarm.. dose it set the alarm off?

Rufus McKoi 


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Re: Alarms
<Reply # 1 on 3/9/2009 9:56 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I would assume it couldn't work without electricity. But I've heard that fire alarms still work after the power has been cut. But that could just be bull shit, too.

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NoSuchPerson 

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Re: Alarms
<Reply # 2 on 3/9/2009 10:58 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Mobile
 
Oh, they work.

Most alarm systems have what's called loop supervision. This means that there is a constant "ping-pong" happening between the alarm panel and the monitoring center's computer. If a Ping isn't Pong'd within a specified time limit, it will generate a "communications fail" alarm. These are treated fairly urgently as they mean the buildings alarm system has stopped communicating.

This can be for a variety of reasons - one of which being the line cut.

Unit calling radio say again?
AnAppleSnail 


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Re: Alarms
<Reply # 3 on 3/9/2009 11:00 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Depends on the alarm. Note that phone-signaling alarms only need a battery backup to send an alarm; as the phone wires are separate from power. One using network *may* be functional in an outage; as some have their own backups and some don't.

How long has the power been out for? Hours to days, it's likely to still be alarmed. A week or more, there would probably have to be battery backup or solar or generators.

Now let's hope someone who actually knows alarms replies.

EDIT: Oh look, there he went. I think it depends heavily on *how* the power cut off, but do what he said.
[last edit 3/9/2009 11:01 PM by AnAppleSnail - edited 1 times]

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Emma Peel 


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Re: Alarms
<Reply # 4 on 3/9/2009 11:00 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by funkyelectrician

Specifically, when the power is cut to a building with a monitored alarm.. dose it set the alarm off?


Why, uh.... WhywouldyouaskTHAT, funky "electrician"? O.o
[last edit 3/9/2009 11:01 PM by Emma Peel - edited 1 times]

Sorry, I probably forgot my <sarcasm> tags.
geoff5093 


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Re: Alarms
<Reply # 5 on 3/9/2009 11:28 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
How can you be sure that the power has been cut to the entire building? For all you know it may have multiple feeds and only the ones for the lights have been shut off...

funkyelectrician 


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Re: Alarms
<Reply # 6 on 3/9/2009 11:36 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by Rufus McKoi
I've heard that fire alarms still work after the power has been cut. But that could just be bull shit, too.


Fire alarms most certainly have backup batteries


Posted by AnAppleSnail
How long has the power been out for? Hours to days, it's likely to still be alarmed.


Whenever I want it to be... mwahahahahha

Posted by exkalibur
Oh, they work.

Most alarm systems have what's called loop supervision. This means that there is a constant "ping-pong" happening between the alarm panel and the monitoring center's computer. If a Ping isn't Pong'd within a specified time limit, it will generate a "communications fail" alarm. These are treated fairly urgently as they mean the buildings alarm system has stopped communicating.

This can be for a variety of reasons - one of which being the line cut.


Damm...
Wouldn't that require a dedicated phone line tho? If it has to keep dialing a connection every now and then... I cant imagine residential alarms are like that.
Posted by Emma Peel


Why, uh.... WhywouldyouaskTHAT, funky "electrician"? O.o


I ask because I'm not sure. We rarely work on alarms, When a job needs an alarm, instead of doing it ourselves, we call in an alarm company because they charge 1/3 of our own hourly rate.

Besides, when a alarm is monitored the monitoring company installs there own stuff.

funkyelectrician 


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Re: Alarms
<Reply # 7 on 3/9/2009 11:38 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by geoff5093
How can you be sure that the power has been cut to the entire building? For all you know it may have multiple feeds and only the ones for the lights have been shut off...


look up. the poco cant hide a service drop

Darkwolf 

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Re: Alarms
<Reply # 8 on 3/9/2009 11:49 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Most alarms have a little indicator called TROUBLE! This light will go on If any of the following occur.
1-Power Failure / AC or Battery
2-Communication Failure / Loop, Link, Telcom
3-Sensor Failure / Motion, Smoke or any other wiring fault

When this little light comes on the system will call for help.
If the power has been cut for than 48 hours the batteries are most likely dead by then. Some new systems are equipped with cellular backups in the event that the telco lines are down. So watch out for those.

It is always best to check the power meter and lines heading to the building. If the meter is gone or not spinning at all, you should be ok. Also check telco lines. Most buildings when abandoned will have all the lines cut or the meters pulled.

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AnAppleSnail 


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Re: Alarms
<Reply # 9 on 3/9/2009 11:53 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by funkyelectrician


look up. the poco cant hide a service drop


Makes a lot more sense that you're an actual electrician, lol.

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NoSuchPerson 

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Re: Alarms
<Reply # 10 on 3/10/2009 2:31 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Alarm lines aren't like regular phone lines. They're called alarm loops, dry loops or DVACS lines. Basically, they're a constant data-like connection between a modem in the alarm panel and the monitoring center. They're dedicated and fairly pricy. This applies to commercial installations. Residential alarms, for the most part, work differently. Most work on a dial-out method, whereby once an alarm is detected, it dials out to a monitoring center's modem to transmit the alarm signal. Some (ADT does this) will seize the line, disconnecting any telephone sets in the house and keeps a constant connection between the alarm panel and the monitoring center once it goes into alarm. This allows the operator to interrogate the system very quickly as well as provide 2-way voice should the customer have such a feature.

In either case, as DW said, they can often include cellular backup. So even if one were to chop the telco lines, it wouldn't matter but these types of systems are really uncommon except in something such as a bank or other large outfit as they're anything but inexpensive. It's generally safe to say that in any decent installation, cutting the phone lines WILL signal some sort of alarm. It's just a question of whether that signal will elicit a response from a guard/police.

In terms of AC power - it all depends. There's one type of system I know of that is powered in several ways. Firstly, the regular 120V mains supply. Then it uses power provided on a regular telco line, then the power supplied on a DVACS line, and lastly with a built in battery. The loss of any of these supplies will signal an alarm to the monitoring station, and any one of the supplies is sufficient to at least signal an alarm (the power provided over a copper voice line and a DVACS isn't enough to power the entire system, but it's enough to send an "oh shit" message).

The easiest way? Look at the panel itself. No lights = no alarm. Of course, by this point, you're already SOL if it's active...
[last edit 3/10/2009 2:33 AM by NoSuchPerson - edited 1 times]

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hatsumi 






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Re: Alarms
<Reply # 11 on 3/10/2009 9:39 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 

on the subject...let's say an abandoned building a 'friend' wants to visit has an alarm bell fitted to the external of the building. having previously entered said building one finds oneself unable to spot any detectors or sensors et but eventually one is triggered and said external bell goes off like an air raid warning system - very loud. internally there is a high pitch emitted that is deafening.


anyhoo

if some kind of expanding and hardening substance were to, say, magically find itself injected between the bell plate and the ringing device would this cut its ability to function without triggering a warning ?

http://wb3.itradem...armbellssm24-6.jpg just for the sake of an example



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AnAppleSnail 


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Re: Alarms
<Reply # 12 on 3/11/2009 2:29 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by hatsumi

on the subject...let's say an abandoned building a 'friend' wants to visit has an alarm bell fitted to the external of the building. having previously entered said building one finds oneself unable to spot any detectors or sensors et but eventually one is triggered and said external bell goes off like an air raid warning system - very loud. internally there is a high pitch emitted that is deafening.


anyhoo

if some kind of expanding and hardening substance were to, say, magically find itself injected between the bell plate and the ringing device would this cut its ability to function without triggering a warning ?

http://wb3.itradem...armbellssm24-6.jpg just for the sake of an example




You can disable the local audible alarm (styrofoam peanut is plausible). What else is this system connected to, though?

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Iscran 




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Re: Alarms
<Reply # 13 on 3/11/2009 5:40 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by hatsumi

*alarm bells going nuts*



Sounds like there's probably a handful of PIRs placed throughout the building. It depends on the alarm system. If it has back to base connection still present and the telephone lines haven't been disconnected by the old owner it could call up a security company who'll send someone out to investigate.

If the lines have been disconnected that alarm could just be localised and if it so happened to fill itself with expanding gap filler it would indeed be silenced.

One might advise you to mute it, trip it, wait an hour under cover to see who turns up.



Not all floors or all buildings are decked out with sensors, usually only hallways and the elusive level 5.


PS; Those are just DC ringers, they have no sensor to tell if they're jammed before power hits them in the event of an alarm or during.
[last edit 3/11/2009 5:42 AM by Iscran - edited 1 times]

Sand 


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Re: Alarms
<Reply # 14 on 3/12/2009 9:18 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by exkalibur
Oh, they work.

Most alarm systems have what's called loop supervision. This means that there is a constant "ping-pong" happening between the alarm panel and the monitoring center's computer. If a Ping isn't Pong'd within a specified time limit, it will generate a "communications fail" alarm. These are treated fairly urgently as they mean the buildings alarm system has stopped communicating.

This can be for a variety of reasons - one of which being the line cut.


Exactly. I worked in retail and someone would have to call the company if the electric went out to ensure we didn't have security come over.

Of course all alarms are different. I wouldn't tamper with the electric even if you were sure it would help. That's a big fine or jail time if caught.

Intrinsic 


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Re: Alarms
<Reply # 15 on 3/12/2009 9:54 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by hatsumi
if some kind of expanding and hardening substance were to, say, magically find itself injected between the bell plate and the ringing device would this cut its ability to function without triggering a warning ?


Once the alarm is triggered, the alarm sends out 12 volts to the bell. You'd have to contend with any other alarms as well (internally you're probably looking at a siren). Then there's the possibility of the system dialling for help.

I installed my own home alarm, if you cut/disabled the siren that in itself would not prevent the system from dialling out.

After reading your message again I wonder if you were asking if defeating the alarm bell would TRIGGER a warning in itself, no... the bell is just a metal cup and an arm that uses an electronic field to strike the bell. The bell doesn't know if you stick styrophome inside it, piss on it, or lick it with love.

UER Forum > Archived Rookie Forum > Alarms (Viewed 343 times)



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