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UER Forum > Archived Forum Announcements > Input requested: Change to LDB policies (Viewed 1081 times)
Poll Question:
Which statement best fits your views regarding the PROPOSED new system?
Total Votes:71
1. I've uploaded content to the LDB, and I think that this is a good idea.3042.25 %
2. I've uploaded content to the LDB, and I don't like this idea. I would take my content down and not submit new content.2332.39 %
3. I've never uploaded to the LDB, but I wouldn't mind giving UER the right to display my photos.1216.9 %
4. I've never uploaded to the LDB, but I plan to, but if this was the case, I would not.45.63 %
5. I've never uploaded to the LDB, and I don't plan to start regardless.22.82 %

Avatar-X 

Alpha Husky


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Input requested: Change to LDB policies
< on 3/30/2008 5:33 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
This issue has been decided. Click here to go to the final message.




Before I begin, let me just clarify that what you are about to read is just an IDEA and has not yet been decided or implemented.

At this time, when you upload an image to the location database on UER, you retain all of your rights regarding that image. If you decide at some point in the future that you don't want UER to have a copy of that image anymore, we (or you) can delete it.

This system has been causing a lot of problems. Images are rarely deleted for any real reason; rather, most deletions are because of childish "I'm leaving the site so all of my content is too" mentality of members who decide they no longer wish to participate on UER.

Since the LDB is supposed to be a community-edited collaborative project in the same vein as Wikipedia, perhaps some of the rules and systems that Wikipedia uses would work on UER.

On Wikipedia, any content you provide (images, written word) etc automatically becomes public domain. Anyone can re-use your content in any way they see fit, and you can't stop them. If you don't like this approach, you should not submit content to the Wikipedia.

Why does Wikipedia use such a strong system? Imagine if they didn't. Anytime someone didn't feel like being on the Wiki anymore, they could just go and take all of the articles they'd written down. What a disaster that would be.

I'm suggesting a much lighter version of this for UER: Basically, any content you submit to UER is still yours to do with as you please, but you also grant UER (and ONLY UER) an irrevocable license to display that content on the website.

What does this mean in layman's terms?

Let's say you've taken a photo, and decide you want to upload it to the UER LDB. It still remains your photo, you can do with it as you please... sell it, modify it, print it, etc. However, since you've uploaded it to UER, UER is allowed to display it, and you can't delete it or have UER take it down. Basically, you grant UER the right to display it.

This doesn't mean that other people can now display it without your permission. Just UER.

Why would this system be better than what we have now? It helps keep the LDB uniform. Sometimes we have to delete great locations because there aren't any photos, because the original guy who uploaded the photos decided he didn't want them on UER anymore.

Anyway, I'd like to hear your opinions (civil, please) in this thread and also I'd appreciate your vote in the poll. If you don't ever plan to submit content to the LDB, please do not vote.

-av

[last edit 3/31/2008 7:24 PM by Avatar-X - edited 3 times]

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kowalski 






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Re: Input requested: Change to LDB policies
<Reply # 1 on 3/30/2008 5:40 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I think the main point to be made is that, whatever the merits for or against implementing a policy like this (and I'll leave it to LDB users to debate those), it probably isn't going to fly to try to apply such a policy to existing content in the database. Because affected users would be quite right to say that this was not the policy when they uploaded their content.

So either you're going to have to deal with grandfathered content in perpetuity, or you're going to have to do a total refresh of the LDB, either wiping it completely or forcing users to opt in or out of the new system (and not displaying their existing galleries until they opt in).

Avatar-X 

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Re: Input requested: Change to LDB policies
<Reply # 2 on 3/30/2008 5:52 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Well, an alternate option is that when uploading new content, you are given a choice of "Keep all rights" vs. "Grant UER the right to display". Obviously all current content would be set to "Keep all rights".

A passable analogy of what I am trying to accomplish with this idea is thus:

Imagine a large community project to paint a wall. You attend the event and paint a section of the wall with your unique style. When it's time to go home, you don't just go and take the part of the wall that you painted with you... it's a community thing. The wall is for everyone.

Think of the LDB as the wall. Right now, when people leave, they take part of the LDB with them -- when it costs them nothing to simply leave their photos up. My idea would not take away any ownership or credit, but merely would allow UER's LDB to continue to provide wonderful content without having to worry about that content vanishing when the user does.

-av

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MutantMandias 

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Re: Input requested: Change to LDB policies
<Reply # 3 on 3/30/2008 11:49 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
As I have said many times, if you upload something to UER or Flickr, or anywhere, then you had better have come to terms with the fact that you do not control it anymore.

In very simple terms, if you have uploaded a picture and I like it, I already have a copy of it on my hard drive. You will not be deciding if and when I delete that picture.

I have no intention of posting it anywhere, but for all practical purposes, you have zero control over what I do with it in the future, for ever and ever, amen.

I am fine with this idea. I personally would choose the "Grant UER the right to display" option.

Maybe you could also model some options on the Creative Commons license, with UER being granted a specific, irrevocable license to display it on the website, for the purpose that it was originally uploaded.

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metawaffle 

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Re: Input requested: Change to LDB policies
<Reply # 4 on 3/30/2008 12:44 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
In all honesty, if a given site gave me the option to grant rights, or retain them myself, I'd be taking the latter. That's not to say that I'd begrudge the site the right to display the image in perpetuity, just that I'd take the 'safe option', and give it little further thought.

To my mind, a blunt policy like "once you post, it's there forever" would be more appropriate. As Mandias said, in a practical sense, uploaded content is beyond control anyway, so why not embrace that?

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PhotoSeeker 


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Re: Input requested: Change to LDB policies
<Reply # 5 on 3/30/2008 1:26 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
IMHO, when you upload pictures, data to an open database, you are, defacto, granting rights to the world to use that data in whatever way they see fit.

You're right... it's a public database. Something that we, as a community, are attempting to build. If Home Depot donates 2x4's to building homes for disadvantaged families, then suddenly changes their minds, do they come and repossess the frame of the house?

A donation, once made, unless made with the express agreement that the donator retains all rights (read, lending, rather than donating), becomes the property of the beneficiary.

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kowalski 






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Re: Input requested: Change to LDB policies
<Reply # 6 on 3/30/2008 1:37 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by PhotoSeeker
A donation, once made, unless made with the express agreement that the donator retains all rights (read, lending, rather than donating), becomes the property of the beneficiary.

I think what Avatar-X himself says at the top of this thread is that until now the express agreement has been that the donor retains all rights.


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Re: Input requested: Change to LDB policies
<Reply # 7 on 3/30/2008 1:47 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by kowalski

I think what Avatar-X himself says at the top of this thread is that until now the express agreement has been that the donor retains all rights.



I understand. My point is simply that the suggested change is not without analogue, and I support it.

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TurboZutek 

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Re: Input requested: Change to LDB policies
<Reply # 8 on 3/30/2008 7:28 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Might be an idea to keep in mind that often times said pictures are an actual record of criminal activity or criminal intent.

Being unable to have them removed (and very quickly in some cases) could be a real issue.

I think that's where making comparisons to somewhere like Wikipedia breaks down a little.

Chris...

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Re: Input requested: Change to LDB policies
<Reply # 9 on 3/30/2008 8:54 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Post by MutantMandias
As I have said many times, if you upload something to UER or Flickr, or anywhere, then you had better have come to terms with the fact that you do not control it anymore.

In very simple terms, if you have uploaded a picture and I like it, I already have a copy of it on my hard drive. You will not be deciding if and when I delete that picture.

I have no intention of posting it anywhere, but for all practical purposes, you have zero control over what I do with it in the future, for ever and ever, amen.



Post by PhotoSeeker
IMHO, when you upload pictures, data to an open database, you are, defacto, granting rights to the world to use that data in whatever way they see fit.

QFT


Post by turbozutek
Might be an idea to keep in mind that often times said pictures are an actual record of criminal activity or criminal intent.

Being unable to have them removed (and very quickly in some cases) could be a real issue.


Maybe this could be the one condition to having them removed temporarily or permanently. The person whose pictures are in question would have an "emergency appeal" option where they can plead the reasons and urgency of why they need the entries removed.
Part of the "grant UER rights to display" option would be the understanding that the appeal would be a last resort “true emergency” option only and might not be granted.

This idea is just a suggestion and I'm not even sure it'd be practical.



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Marko Kovacevic 

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Re: Input requested: Change to LDB policies
<Reply # 10 on 3/30/2008 9:11 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by Avatar-X
Well, an alternate option is that when uploading new content, you are given a choice of "Keep all rights" vs. "Grant UER the right to display". Obviously all current content would be set to "Keep all rights".




Make it so UER can only display it on UER.

EDIT: as mentioned above, in emergency situations, grant the right to remove it.

I think this is a good idea!
[last edit 3/30/2008 9:13 PM by Marko Kovacevic - edited 1 times]

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Avatar-X 

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Re: Input requested: Change to LDB policies
<Reply # 11 on 3/30/2008 9:39 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 


Make it so UER can only display it on UER.


Well yes, that is the only right I would ask for -- Not the right to sell it or display it on other websites.
-av

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MutantMandias 

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Re: Input requested: Change to LDB policies
<Reply # 12 on 3/30/2008 10:17 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by CaptOrbit




QFT




Maybe this could be the one condition to having them removed temporarily or permanently. The person whose pictures are in question would have an "emergency appeal" option where they can plead the reasons and urgency of why they need the entries removed.


You quoted me for truth, but apparently you didn't fully understand.


DO NOT ever upload any pictures to the internet unless you are wearing your big boy pants and can deal with the consequences of the entire world having access to those pictures.

And if you ever decide that it was a mistake to upload certain pictures, then you may have to put on your big boy pants again to understand that you made a mistake, and that you will have to live in a world in which an action performed in the past has repercussions.

This is idiotic. Why the fuck can't people understand that you can't just make things disappear? I truly fear for the future every time I am reminded that people are this stupid. Especially practitioners of this particular hobby, where we get our kicks digging through the detritus of what other people have discarded and consider "gone."


Do not put it on the internet if you are not OK with it being available to everyone forever. You stupid fucks.

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metawaffle 

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Re: Input requested: Change to LDB policies
<Reply # 13 on 3/30/2008 10:27 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by turbozutek
Might be an idea to keep in mind that often times said pictures are an actual record of criminal activity or criminal intent.

Being unable to have them removed (and very quickly in some cases) could be a real issue.



If there's still an avenue for someone to have their photos removed, don't we just end up with exactly the situation we have now, only with a moderator's involvement required?

Someone keen to delete all their images could presumably claim that they're in some way incriminating, and insist they be removed immediately. If a moderator declined, or required deliberation, it'd be "I'm in trouble and they won't take my photos down" rant-post time.

Note that I personally think that being able to take down images is necessary - it's just that it starts to erode the original aim of this effort

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Re: Input requested: Change to LDB policies
<Reply # 14 on 3/31/2008 1:41 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Post by MutantMandias



DO NOT ever upload any pictures to the internet unless you are wearing your big boy pants and can deal with the consequences of the entire world having access to those pictures.

And if you ever decide that it was a mistake to upload certain pictures, then you may have to put on your big boy pants again to understand that you made a mistake, and that you will have to live in a world in which an action performed in the past has repercussions.

This is idiotic. Why the fuck can't people understand that you can't just make things disappear? I truly fear for the future every time I am reminded that people are this stupid. Especially practitioners of this particular hobby, where we get our kicks digging through the detritus of what other people have discarded and consider "gone."


Do not put it on the internet if you are not OK with it being available to everyone forever. You stupid fucks.


I've never uploaded anything That's is why I said it was just a suggestion, I really have nothing at stake in this.
That being said I am glad that there are people who are better with a camera then I am and are willing to share their photos with us.
[last edit 3/31/2008 2:30 AM by CaptOrbit - edited 1 times]

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Re: Input requested: Change to LDB policies
<Reply # 15 on 3/31/2008 1:55 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I agree with turbozutek, in that I have been arrested and the first thing I thought was, "I have to get my pictures off the internet".

Do as flickr does, add a Creative Commons option:

http://www.flickr.com/creativecommons/

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Re: Input requested: Change to LDB policies
<Reply # 16 on 3/31/2008 2:25 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Even Creative Commons is a harsher license than what I am suggesting.

For example, the following terms were posted for Adobe's free, online Photoshop Express:
Use of Your Content. Adobe does not claim ownership of Your Content. However, with respect to Your Content that you submit or make available for inclusion on publicly accessible areas of the Services, you grant Adobe a worldwide, royalty-free, nonexclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, and fully sublicensable license to use, distribute, derive revenue or other remuneration from, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, publicly perform and publicly display such Content (in whole or in part) and to incorporate such Content into other Materials or works in any format or medium now known or later developed.


My suggestion would be a much less toothy version:
Use of Your Content. UER does not claim ownership of Your Content. However, with respect to Your Content that you submit or make available for inclusion on publicly accessible areas of the Services (UER), you grant UER a worldwide, royalty-free, nonexclusive, perpetual, and irrevocable license to use, distribute, reproduce, and display such Content, but only on UER and it's subsidiaries, and always with your name or credit attached.

[last edit 3/31/2008 2:25 AM by Avatar-X - edited 1 times]

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Re: Input requested: Change to LDB policies
<Reply # 17 on 3/31/2008 4:21 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Why not just leave it alone but instead just give the users the full right to remove their content on a whim. I for one as a Photographer am Leary of giving anyone any exclusive rights to my material.

I just dont see why we need this discussion.

Simple - If you post them you CAN delete them also posting them on UER gives UER Authorization to Display them freely until they are deleted.

Why make things more complicated than that?


JC


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Sailor's Heart 


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Re: Input requested: Change to LDB policies
<Reply # 18 on 3/31/2008 4:28 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I re-read your initial post a few more times, and thought it over, and I don't think it's a good idea. I agree that it sucks when you have to delete a location because someone left. But taking away one freedom because of someone else's actions...I can't agree with that.

Obviously I have not posted to LDB because I am not FM. If I were FM, posted pictures, and then decided to leave because of irrevocable differences, I would take with me, only what pictures could be used against me in a harmful way. If I did not have the choice to remove my pictures at a later date, I would not post them. I would however, continue to post pictures in the forums, where I control the remote links.

If the motivation behind the change is really the rash decisions of people wishing to leave the forums in a tizzy, then maybe other changes could be made. It is easy to see that you need a thick skin to survive on this website. Perhaps more moderation, conflict resolution, or user relations activities could help. I don't suggest pandering to every butthurt whiny poster on here, but it is no secret that some users are assholes just to be assholes. Most probably won't agree with me on this one, but just thought I'd throw it out there.

JC 


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Re: Input requested: Change to LDB policies
<Reply # 19 on 3/31/2008 5:47 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Just to clarify for Sailor's Heart, No UER User may remove a location after it is made public. I am not too worried about that anyhow.

This post is just concerning their photographs not the actual location listings themselves.




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UER Forum > Archived Forum Announcements > Input requested: Change to LDB policies (Viewed 1081 times)
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