 |
|
|
UER Store
|
|
sweet UER decals:
|
|
|
|
Activity
|
|
773 online
Server Time:
2024-04-19 20:32:20
|
|
|
 NoSuchPerson
      
Stop, or I'll ask you again!
 |  | Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 20 on 2/16/2007 10:23 PM >
|  | | | Posted by The Found Artists
Actually - unless you are taken into custody - a police officer has no right to touch your equipment without a warrant.
Obviously - if they do - there are procedures you can undergo to get your equipment back or get reimbursed for it.
It's happened. Not to me - but to at least three clients of mine. One was a police officer who took the camera... but the two others were private security ... and they have no right to that.
|
I'm very well aware of what kind of powers Police Officers have and don't have.
A Police Officer has *every* right to demand you erase your card. You certainly are under no legal obligation to oblige, however given the position that would put you in - is it really a good idea not to?
Yes, there are procedures you can go through if an officer damages equipment. Look at it this way. You're in court with 2 or 3 Police Officers who have caught you trespassing. You claim they ruined your camera. They say they have no idea what you're talking about. Honestly, who do you think the judge/JP is going to believe?
I know it's not fair (or legal for that matter), but from my experience, as long as they don't break any bones or leave any bruises, the Police can do just about anything they want to, and get away with it. I've heard almost exactly that from numerous officers in the past, so there must be truth to it, right?
Unit calling radio say again? |
|
Ride My Pony
Location: Toronto
Gender: Male
Dreamer...
| |  | Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 21 on 2/16/2007 11:58 PM >
| | | | I knew about all this but....here's what happened to me.
Three of us were exploring an abandoned power station.
We got there early; about 5:30 on a Saturday morning. The power station used to be owned by the government but it sold to a private company. By the time we got to the top floor (a long walk up many many many flights of spiraling metal stairs) at around 7AM that Saturday, we heard others inside the plant. We figured it was other explorers. My buddy went up to them to say "Hello" but when he got close enough he realized they were workers and not explorers because they wore those yellow hard-hats. Still, it was wierd to have a work crew there on a Saturday, so we thought they might be some clever copper thieves or something.
As the rising sun began illuminating the incredible industrial interior, we made our way back down to the first floor to begin a full day of shooting. When we got to the first floor we heard even more workers. A generator was turned on and a set of floodlights in the center of the plant started to get brighter and brighter. We turned around and proceeded to head in the opposite direction of where the workers were standing. They started yelling and screaming and came running after us. We were decked out in full asbestos proof body suits and respirators and were carrying long metal tubes (tripods), so it really freaked them out. My two fellow two explorers that were with me had stashed some gear in a room and had to go get it before we could leave the plant. While they were collecting their gear, the workers especially the crew leader was causing a big commotion and yelling in a very heavy Spanish accent "WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE?"
- I am an artist, I'm taking pictures -I replied.
- I'M CALLING THE POLICE! DON"T GO ANYWHERE! THIS IS PRIVATE PROPERTY! WE HAVE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF EQUIPMENT HERE! -the crew leader kept yelling.
- We don't want any trouble. We are leaving. -I said and proceeded to walk outside the plant with my fellow explorers right behind me and a couple of the workers running ahead of me to prevent us from leaving. One of my buddies is fluent in Italian and very good in Spanish, so he was trying to compromise with the chief, but to no avail. This worker was just freaking out like he never seen anything like this before. He was almost becoming physical. That's when my buddy yelled at him in Spanish that if he lays a hand on any of us he is going to regret it. Trust me, when my buddy says that, he means it (Sicilian background and connections). None of the workers spoke any english and kept asking "Why you take pictures? Of what?" They just couldn't understand why anyone would be taking pictures of old machinery. THe funny thing was that the workers were outfitted just like us, body suits, respirators, the whole bit. For a minute I thought this whole thing might be a very elaborate prank perhaps. But no, if we should have been so lucky.
Once we were outside, the security guard from the lot next to the power plant showed up in a truck. He came out of his truck and said if we cross the fence to his side, which is an active site, he will call the police and we'll be charged with Terrorism and will spend at least 2 weeks in jail. Shit like that makes you cringe. We didn't have to cross the fence to his side though. Our entry point was another way along the fence and would not involve us crossing to the active side, but we didn't want to give away the spot we came in from, so we ended up just standing there like a bunch of idiots.
What we should have done at this point is just leave exactly the way we came in and who cares about them finding out how we got in. We didn't, we stood there and pleaded with the crew leader to let us go. WE knew our rights. We knew that they had no right to detain us. We knew that if they use physical force, we could charge them with assault but we still thought they would understand and let us go. He (the crew leader) didn't understand, he called the Police.
We waited and smoked cigarettes. Then the security guard from across the fence got back in his truck and drove away after warning us to not run away and just tell the cops what happened when they get here. This was our opportunity again to make a run for it, but the next moment two police cruisers showed up. They asked us a bunch of questions, just the usual. Upon realizing we are harmless explorers just taking pictures they wanted to let us go. When they were about to let us go the crew leader who's name is "Oscar" by the way, was on the phone with his boss who was the one in charge of the plant. Oscar then tells the police officers that his boss wants to press charges. This actually really annoyed the cops, it was obvious they had better things to do and this was just a nuisance to them. Now that the person in charge of the plant wanted to press charges and we WERE on Private Property, the cops had no choice. The Police Supervisor cruiser pulls in at this point. This was getting really ridiculous, 3 cruisers for 3 harmless explorers. The supervisor made us all open our bags and inspected our cameras and took a look at our pictures on our cards. He gave one of us shit for not taking good enough care of the camera. At this point the police supervisor motioned to one of the cops and he came over and put handcuffs on my buddy. I was next, and then the 3d explorer. I was thrown into the back of the cruiser and man were those handcuffs frigin tight, and theres no space for your knees. The cop told me not to worry, the worst thing that will happen is we'll get a Trespassing ticket. On the way to the station the cop scanned through some radio channels and to my surprise he settled on SlipKnot. He was chatting with me, trying to feel me out. I gave him the truth and answered all his questions to his satisfaction. Once at the police station I was searched again, not all the way though. I was permitted to keep my long-johns and T-shirt on and then was thrown into the Bull Pen. After about an hour or two of eternity, one of the cops came to get me and took me upstairs to be interviewd by a couple of detectives. The 2 detectives were very cool people. Friendly kind, treated me like a buddy having drinks at a bar or something(one of them actually asked me if he could get me a drink) I knew he meant water but I asked if they got some Crown Royal, and that made them laugh.
I was completely honest with them. Nothing to hide really (well accept a little baggy, but that's another story). We are explorers and we take pictures. We are not terrorists nor are we environmentalists. I gave them my website address and they spent a good half hour going through my pictures. I was thinking "Great, now I gave them evidence of my previous trespassing activities. Killing my self with my own ammo." To my surprise though, the cops LIKED my photos, especially the artistic nudes ones (I do all sorts of photography). They told me I have some great work and advised me to next time ask for permission from the owner if I want to take pictures on private property. I was then let go with a $65 ticket. I met my two buddies outside the station where we jokingly started devising a plan to get back at Oscar.
We were happy though that all our gear was returned and we got off with only a ticket but very annoyed at Oscar who could have just let us go.
One of the cops took off with my buddy's car keys though and we had to wait for him to get back. He was cool about it though, we knew he was the one who went to the car and searched it inside out. I was not sure if he was allowed to do that or not but we didn't really have anything to hide.
So yeah, the cops didn't care about my other pictures on my site where I was obviously trespassing, they just wanted to make sure that we are not terrorists or disgruntled environmentalists or something.
So even if one knows all the rules and rights, shit can still happen, and people can act stupid in the heat of the moment. All in all it was quite an adventure though and a great learning experience well worth the $65.
[last edit 2/17/2007 3:31 PM by Ride My Pony - edited 3 times]
Cam, tripod, and lenses. Industrial Decay.
Loosing all my senses, spending my holiday.
Climbing over fences. To roam where no one may. |
|
blackhawk
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: Mission Control
UER newbie
| | | Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 22 on 2/17/2007 3:35 AM >
| | | | Posted by ExKa|iBuR
I'm very well aware of what kind of powers Police Officers have and don't have.
A Police Officer has *every* right to demand you erase your card. You certainly are under no legal obligation to oblige, however given the position that would put you in - is it really a good idea not to?
Yes, there are procedures you can go through if an officer damages equipment. Look at it this way. You're in court with 2 or 3 Police Officers who have caught you trespassing. You claim they ruined your camera. They say they have no idea what you're talking about. Honestly, who do you think the judge/JP is going to believe?
I know it's not fair (or legal for that matter), but from my experience, as long as they don't break any bones or leave any bruises, the Police can do just about anything they want to, and get away with it. I've heard almost exactly that from numerous officers in the past, so there must be truth to it, right?
|
I've never seen a officer or FBI agent ask anyone to erase their card. If you really caught their attention, they will want to see the pics! They will want to take all the cards to review them. They may charge with a crime if they feel your activities warrant so. They will give the cards back intact with the images unless they're not up to speed.
Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
|
|
systemx29
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: Long Island/Buffalo
Gender: Male
If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense.
| |  | Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 23 on 2/17/2007 7:25 PM >
| | | | I have 2 questions.
First off,say im shooting an an abandoned building on ACTIVE psych center grounds. am i breaching patient privacy? i should be allowed to shoot,as long as im not showing where patients live,correct?
Secondly, i have had run-ins with mall security after a trip for example,where they demanded my cf card,obviously,they werent getting it from me,but next time, how do i go about telling them they cant have it without a court order,without backing myself into a corner?
"Patient delusional-Is inventing space ships for a scientist." |
|
blackhawk
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: Mission Control
UER newbie
| | | Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 24 on 2/17/2007 8:12 PM >
| | | | Posted by systemx29
I have 2 questions.
First off,say im shooting an an abandoned building on ACTIVE psych center grounds. am i breaching patient privacy? i should be allowed to shoot,as long as im not showing where patients live,correct?
Secondly, i have had run-ins with mall security after a trip for example,where they demanded my cf card,obviously,they werent getting it from me,but next time, how do i go about telling them they cant have it without a court order,without backing myself into a corner?
|
If your on the grounds illegally, you better check you state penal code first.http://www.uer.ca/...d=1&threadid=39918
If it's a federal facility, don't even think about it!
Any place that permanently houses people, including hospitals are generally protected by very stiff laws, much more severe than defiant trespass. Facilities take a very dim view of unauthorized pictures of patients. NEVER do this!
If your not in the buildings that are in use or next to them, cops prolly won't charge you with the more severe criminal statutes. Cops will use your pics as evidence if they arrest you; don't take 'cute' pics of cops, security, or shit that you know will put you in a bind.
If you know that a private place such as a mall doesn't allow pics, don't, or get permission. Malls are a bore anyway. After they warn you once, they can have you arrested and/or banned permanently. They can also notify DHS. The FBI still makes house calls, and they don't need 'hard' evidence to want to question you, or investigate your activities.
It's illegal to seize cameras, film, or cards unless your arrested or they have a warrant. If a security guard does this, tell him he doesn't have that right, and/or call the cops. He may have you arrested, and if your convicted for a legitimate offense, I hope the images where worth it. On the other hand if you not committing a crime, and your images are forcibly destroyed, you can file a civil suit, and depending on circumstances maybe criminal charges. Your rights are more limited on private property if your uninvited. It's always better to peacefully resolve conflicts without using the courts and lawyers whenever possible. Don't go looking for trouble; there's lots out there.
Don't tempt fate though, because unforeseen shit happens!
Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
|
|
systemx29
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: Long Island/Buffalo
Gender: Male
If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense.
| | | Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 25 on 2/17/2007 10:25 PM >
| | | | im not sure my first question was clear,maybe it was and im not intelligent enough for your response,so let me rephrase.
Im at Acme state hospital shooting building 1,which is abandoned. Im taking exteriors,and im being sure not to have building 2,which is active and houses patients in my picture. OMH drives up,and tells me i cant take pictures of building 1,due to patient privacy. If the road is public property(like kings park for example,the boulevard is town property,not the office of mental healths) but the building is hospital property(state institution) am i still allowed to photograph it? Does security have the power to tell me i can not take pictures of their building from a public road(Given that i am not photographing active buildings)?
the mall thing btw was in referance to a time that we stopped at a mall to get food on the way back from a site,and i brought my camera in with me,i was not taking pics,but i was hassled for my cf card.
[last edit 2/17/2007 10:27 PM by systemx29 - edited 1 times]
"Patient delusional-Is inventing space ships for a scientist." |
|
blackhawk
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: Mission Control
UER newbie
| | | Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 26 on 2/17/2007 11:01 PM >
| | | | Posted by systemx29
im not sure my first question was clear,maybe it was and im not intelligent enough for your response,so let me rephrase.
Im at Acme state hospital shooting building 1,which is abandoned. Im taking exteriors,and im being sure not to have building 2,which is active and houses patients in my picture. OMH drives up,and tells me i cant take pictures of building 1,due to patient privacy. If the road is public property(like kings park for example,the boulevard is town property,not the office of mental healths) but the building is hospital property(state institution) am i still allowed to photograph it? Does security have the power to tell me i can not take pictures of their building from a public road(Given that i am not photographing active buildings)?
the mall thing btw was in referance to a time that we stopped at a mall to get food on the way back from a site,and i brought my camera in with me,i was not taking pics,but i was hassled for my cf card.
|
You can take pics of anything you can see from public property, occupied or not.. I would avoid 911 hot spots though.
The mall can ask you to leave, but can't take your processions even if you took pictures. Best to keep the camera in it's case.
Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
|
|
Air
  
Location: Canada
| | Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 27 on 2/18/2007 4:50 AM >
| | | | Posted by systemx29
I have 2 questions.
First off,say im shooting an an abandoned building on ACTIVE psych center grounds. am i breaching patient privacy? i should be allowed to shoot,as long as im not showing where patients live,correct?
Secondly, i have had run-ins with mall security after a trip for example,where they demanded my cf card,obviously,they werent getting it from me,but next time, how do i go about telling them they cant have it without a court order,without backing myself into a corner?
|
Dont shoot an active site, especially a psych site there are many issues why, (other then the privacy of patients) but go find an abandoned hospital. Psych hospitals usually have the tightest security anyhow and its an area security frequents often.
"The extraordinary beauty of things that fail." - Heinrich von Kleist |
|
blackhawk
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: Mission Control
UER newbie
| | | Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 28 on 2/18/2007 4:52 AM >
| | | | Posted by Air 33
Dont shoot an active site, especially a psych site there are many issues why, (other then the privacy of patients) but go find an abandoned hospital. Psych hospitals usually have the tightest security anyhow and its an area security frequents often.
|
Why? If he's shooting from public property?
Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
|
|
Air
Location: Canada
| | Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 29 on 2/18/2007 5:24 AM >
| | | | Posted by Ride My Pony
I knew about all this but....here's what happened to me.
Three of us were exploring an abandoned power station.
We got there early; about 5:30 on a Saturday morning. The power station used to be owned by the government but it sold to a private company. By the time we got to the top floor (a long walk up many many many flights of spiraling metal stairs) at around 7AM that Saturday, we heard others inside the plant. We figured it was other explorers. My buddy went up to them to say "Hello" but when he got close enough he realized they were workers and not explorers because they wore those yellow hard-hats. Still, it was wierd to have a work crew there on a Saturday, so we thought they might be some clever copper thieves or something.
|
I'm really perplexed as to why you dident leave at the first sign of workers.
| That's when my buddy yelled at him in Spanish that if he lays a hand on any of us he is going to regret it. Trust me, when my buddy says that, he means it (Sicilian background and connections). |
Threatning workers?!?!?!?! No wonder they called the cops.
| WE knew our rights. We knew that they had no right to detain us. We knew that if they use physical force, we could charge them with assault but we still thought they would understand and let us go. He (the crew leader) didn't understand, he called the Police. |
I guess that u forgot to tell the cops you were not given an opportunity to leave?
Although you were dressed AS workers so....they at this point didnt know what to make of you, I guess.
| The Police Supervisor cruiser pulls in at this point. This was getting really ridiculous, 3 cruisers for 3 harmless explorers. The supervisor made us all open our bags and inspected our cameras and took a look at our pictures on our cards. |
That's quite the response, even for regular tresspassing.
| Once at the police station I was searched again, not all the way though. I was permitted to keep my long-johns and T-shirt on and then was thrown into the Bull Pen. Nothing to hide really (well accept a little baggy, but that's another story). |
OMG, I thought I heard it all.
So even if one knows all the rules and rights, shit can still happen, and people can act stupid in the heat of the moment. All in all it was quite an adventure though and a great learning experience well worth the $65.
|
I'm suprised you say you know your rights. But obviously not the RISKS. You chose to dress like workers, threaten them and on top of everything take pot (or whatever) to an active site.
"The extraordinary beauty of things that fail." - Heinrich von Kleist |
|
Air
Location: Canada
| | Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 30 on 2/18/2007 5:28 AM >
| | | | Posted by blackhawk
Why? If he's shooting from public property?
|
Hmm, as long as its not ON hospital property. I guess you mean external shots? Perhaps wait until the evening or early morning...you dont want people complaining about privacy, etc.
Just a suggestion. People are very pricky about privacy around such a location. I know, I've worked in a hospital and psych wards are a different beast altogether.
"The extraordinary beauty of things that fail." - Heinrich von Kleist |
|
Air
Location: Canada
| | Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 32 on 2/18/2007 5:30 PM >
| | | |
Thanks for tha link. I've added it to the "harassed photographer" group I co-admin on flickr. We complain/talk/discuss such issues. All are welcome if you've been harassed.
http://www.flickr....oups/leavemealone/
"The extraordinary beauty of things that fail." - Heinrich von Kleist |
|
manitou
Location: Mississauga/Toronto/Waterloo
Gender: Male
I was born with an inherent knowledge of every abandonment in the world!
| | Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 33 on 2/18/2007 5:57 PM >
| | | | In some places you have to be a real tool to get caught. The above mentioned power station is one of those places.
www.dkphotogroup.com
|
|
micro
Gender: Male
Slowly I turned
| | Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 34 on 2/18/2007 6:07 PM >
| | | | Posted by Ride My Pony
- I'M CALLING THE POLICE! DON"T GO ANYWHERE! THIS IS PRIVATE PROPERTY! WE HAVE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF EQUIPMENT HERE! -the crew leader kept yelling.
|
And that's why you don't go to Lakeview on a Saturday. Also, getting dressed up as workers using the crew's own protective gear probably wasn't the best idea either. Did you think that wearing a full-body white suit would help make you blend in with your environment?
|
|
blackhawk
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: Mission Control
UER newbie
| | | Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 35 on 2/18/2007 7:23 PM >
| | | | My Pony, fucking around at construction sites IS asking for it.
Big surprise.
Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
|
|
startedsmoking
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Gender: Male
| |  |  | | Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 36 on 2/19/2007 1:53 AM >
| | | | This is an awesome thread. If someone has the time it would be good to take people questions from this thread, distill them down into broad topics - what cops have the right to do with your equipment, the difference between occupied properties and unoccupied or partially occupied - and then send it to The Found Artist to complete when he gets a chance/if he can be arsed?
I might do it if i get a chance this week but i'm pretty busy right now frankly.
"take nothing but pictures, leaving nothing but footprints...unless it would be really fun" |
|
sphinx
Location: Bellevue, WA
Gender: Male
| | Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 37 on 2/19/2007 3:41 AM >
| | | | As said in another thread, what mall cops/police can do and what they do are two completely separate things.
|
|
Catbunny
Location: Long Island, NY
| | Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 38 on 2/19/2007 5:05 PM >
| | | | | Posted by systemx29First off,say im shooting an an abandoned building on ACTIVE psych center grounds. am i breaching patient privacy? i should be allowed to shoot,as long as im not showing where patients live,correct? |
My friend and I shot on active psych grounds a few times. We stayed on the side far from the active buildings. The last time we were there we were stopped going back to my car by an officer. She was really nice though. It helped that we were polite and we looked like clean and decent folk. My friend told her we had been shooting outside mostly (not true but she couldn't see that from the direction we came from). She told us it was fine if we wanted to take pictures outside, just not to hang around too long or go on the other side near the active buildings because then we could be arrested. They did take down my plate number though, so if we go back it will have to be his car.
Some of the cooler abandoned buildings are in the same area as the active ones, which sucks. Security is pretty tight though and I am not that brave.
|
|
Dokk
Location: Lewisville, Texas
Gender: Male
| |  | Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 39 on 2/21/2007 2:39 PM >
| | | | Posted by ExKa|iBuR
I'm very well aware of what kind of powers Police Officers have and don't have.
A Police Officer has *every* right to demand you erase your card. You certainly are under no legal obligation to oblige, however given the position that would put you in - is it really a good idea not to?
|
I sure hope like hell you come down here to Texas and "demand" that I clear my memory card. I won't comply because you don't have ANY right to force me to destroy intellectual property any more than you have the right to force me to destroy my car because I was speeding. And when you arrest me and clear it for me, I'll have 1000 or more copyright lawyers as well as several MAJOR nationally syndicated newspapers backing me in court on copyright and privacy law violations. I am a freelance PJ and if I'm busted for trespassing, I will take my ticket and it will get paid. You, as a law enforcement officer, have absolutely NO right whatsoever to demand that I turn over my photos to you for ANY reason whatsoever unless I'm under arrest and have been detained. If you arrest and detain me, then you have to have something more than simple trespass or I can press a suit against you and your agency for unlawful arrest and very possibly kidnapping (yes, that has been done and won in court and it's a federal offence and two officers spent 12 years in a Federal facility for it). A court of law (JUDGE) can cause them to be confiscated for reasons of national security but those reasons are already laid out in writing in the law books. What you're spouting has already been tried and there are police office who have been fired and law enforcement agencies who have paid damages to photographers for demanding and strongarming photogs into surrendering film (remember film? this means this has already been tried and decided long ago, it's not new). IF you are really a police officer, you need to get some real training and find out what the hell you are talking about. Once a photo is taken, it falls under a whole different set of copyright laws that are outside of normal criminal statutes and are covered very differently that normal property confiscation laws. You need to find out what the hell you are talking about before you throw this crap around. You may be a police officer but you are not an attorney and when you talk of intellectual property rights, you are clearly out of your realm and it's going to get you into a lot of legal trouble someday.
"If I'm gonna get blamed for it, I might as well do it!" |
|
|
|
All content and images copyright © 2002-2024 UER.CA and respective creators. Graphical Design by Crossfire.
To contact webmaster, or click to email with problems or other questions about this site:
UER CONTACT
View Terms of Service |
View Privacy Policy |
Server colocation provided by Beanfield
This page was generated for you in 140 milliseconds. Since June 23, 2002, a total of 738534560 pages have been generated.
|
|
