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Server Time:
2024-05-08 00:49:44
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 Caenos
Location: Winnipeg, Mb
Gender: Male
 |  | Yet another Infiltration ethics question
< on 10/26/2003 7:23 PM >
|  | | | Situation:
Inside a certain vocational school that I attend, in the SE staircase, one level below the bottom student accessable level, there is a huge steel mesh cage preventing you from continuing down the stairwell into the school basements. The cage is accessable only by a a deadbolted mesh door with one side keyed, one side opened manually.
The area is not frequented by students.
According to 'intel' behind the cage is another deadbolted door, and a ventilation shaft.
The Question:
Do you think it would be unethical to cut a small (2inx2in), out of the way, inaccessable hole as to use an extendable pole to unlock the cage door's hatch?
(we've already practiced the unlocking on a mockup and devised an extendable pole with an unlocking lever)
[last edit 10/26/2003 7:24 PM by Caenos - edited 1 times]
I wonder whats behind THAT door? |
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Capone
Location: London, Ontario
Gender: Male
UEL
| |  | Re: Yet another Infiltration ethics question
<Reply # 1 on 10/26/2003 8:08 PM >
|  | | | I'd say it is. Generally anything like that I would consider unethical, anything where you cannot restore things (in this case, re-secure them) back to the way they were. Plus the cutting of this mesh could be construed as damage to property.
EDIT: This of course is just my 2 cents. We at UEL have a strict no-damage policy. What this means in 99% of cases is, if it's secured, we won't make a way in.
[last edit 10/26/2003 8:12 PM by Capone - edited 1 times]
So there I was, in this creepy old hallway... |
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tick
Location: Abingdon, VA
Gender: Male
| |  | | Re: Yet another Infiltration ethics question
<Reply # 2 on 10/26/2003 9:33 PM >
| | | | It'd be less unethical, and just as effective, to pick the lock. Pick sets are cheap, the skill isn't too difficult to learn, and it leaves no trace.
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Caenos
Location: Winnipeg, Mb
Gender: Male
| | Re: Yet another Infiltration ethics question
<Reply # 3 on 10/27/2003 4:53 AM >
| | | | lol, working on it... the problem is that said picking would be done in partial view of a camera... we can ensure that the camera is unwatched for about 60 seconds, but not enough time to pick it.
(camera records only when an alarm is triggered, otherwise is only watched by one monitor in the Asst. Principal's office. I know this for a fact.)
I wonder whats behind THAT door? |
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Macsbug
Noble Donor
Location: St. Paul, MN
Gender: Male
Safety First!
| | | Re: Yet another Infiltration ethics question
<Reply # 4 on 10/27/2003 5:03 AM >
| | | | If you want to pick the lock, and hace some fun pulling it off, you could pull a stunt like in "Speed" and copy the camera's feed onto a video, and play it back of a vcr.
Get a A/B box with two outputs. When the camera is unwatched, unhook it, hook it into one of the A/B box's inputs, and hook the vcr, and original line out into the box's outputs. Tape enough to pick the lock. Hook the vcr outputs into the other input of the A/B box, hit play, and switch from camera to vcr.
Fun Stuff.
"Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it." |
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MacGyver
Location: St Paul, Minnesota
Gender: Male
"Someone go find me a paperclip, a D-cell battery, and a cheese grater"
| | Re: Yet another Infiltration ethics question
<Reply # 5 on 10/27/2003 5:16 AM >
| | | | you'd probably have to splice the coax in line, as I doubt they would leave an exposed connector just because of that.
Like a fiend with his dope / a drunkard his wine / a man will have lust for the lure of the mine
"If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent." |
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uem-Tux
 
Iron Wok Jan
Location: Montreal
Gender: Male
UE Geek
| |  | | Re: Yet another Infiltration ethics question
<Reply # 6 on 10/27/2003 5:16 AM >
|  | | | If the camera has standard AV jacks of some kind, this trick might be possible to pull off using a digital camera with an AV-out. Take a picture, and then display it as if you had the camera connected to the TV... hook the camera onto the line and voila. Cheap and easy. Cameras generally don't have RCA or S-VIDEO connectors though. It's usually coaxial that carries the signal and the power for the camera. If you're lucky though, the school's cheap and they have one of those "home security" cameras you can buy at any megastore.
Urban Exploration Montreal
Why are you the way that you are? |
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F A S T
Location: Oakland, CA
Gender: Male
Coastal Wind
| | | | Re: Yet another Infiltration ethics question
<Reply # 7 on 10/27/2003 5:18 AM >
| | | | Is the camera recording? If you are caught down there, they would want to know how you had accessed the basement and probably check back on those camereas. Also, if you do manage to pick the lock I wouldn't take the pick set down below with you, as they are burglary tools and I think it can result in more trouble for you if you are caught with them. Anyhow - good luck.
Edit: Grammatical
[last edit 10/27/2003 5:20 AM by F A S T - edited 1 times]
F A S T |
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Macsbug
Noble Donor
Location: St. Paul, MN
Gender: Male
Safety First!
| | | Re: Yet another Infiltration ethics question
<Reply # 8 on 10/27/2003 5:22 AM >
| | | | Posted by Krazy
you'd probably have to splice the coax in line, as I doubt they would leave an exposed connector just because of that.
|
Is it possible to splice into the coax easily? Isnt there an inner cable, a coating, an then an outer cable with a coating? You would have to cut a spot of the outer wire out. Anyways, I was just thinking about that if the camera had exposed connections, if not, it would definitly take some work to pull off.
UEXplor... - The camera is not recording, it is stated earlier.
"Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it." |
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Caenos
Location: Winnipeg, Mb
Gender: Male
| | Re: Yet another Infiltration ethics question
<Reply # 9 on 10/27/2003 6:15 AM >
| | | | heh... interesting ideas, and the camera uses AV... problem is that all cameras are encased in alarmed clear plastic housings.
The camera system is only capable of recording 15 minutes of tape per camera, and during school hours is only
activated when one of the school's alarms are triggered.
(eg. of alarms)**
when an alarmed cabinet is opened (chem lab)
a camera housing is opened
a fire alarm pull station cover is opened (big plastic covers over pull stations to activate cameras and a loud buzzer to 'deter' false alarms)
**
Our way of keeping the camera un-monitored is by pure social engineering... (random voice appears on student securtiy radio frequency alerting a fight starting at the church across the street from the school)
...worked MANY times before. and it's simple enough to have somone incite a small riot in said church's parking lot.
I wonder whats behind THAT door? |
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Caenos
Location: Winnipeg, Mb
Gender: Male
| | Re: Yet another Infiltration ethics question
<Reply # 10 on 10/27/2003 6:19 AM >
| | | | BTW, if caught, Its less then a slap on the wrist pretty much... I'm the technical advisor for the school's theatre program, so I could bullshit my way thru things easy. for all they know, I'm supposed to be down there scrounging old fixtures. SO carrying lockpicks will not be a problem. behind the cage there is another deadbolted door anyway, but we'll pick that lock when we come to it.
The reason why I can't just get the key is that they would accually CHECK if I'm supposed to be down there.
I wonder whats behind THAT door? |
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MacGyver
Location: St Paul, Minnesota
Gender: Male
"Someone go find me a paperclip, a D-cell battery, and a cheese grater"
| | Re: Yet another Infiltration ethics question
<Reply # 11 on 10/27/2003 7:33 AM >
| | | | Posted by macsbug
Is it possible to splice into the coax easily? Isnt there an inner cable, a coating, an then an outer cable with a coating? You would have to cut a spot of the outer wire out. |
splicing coax is relatively painless if you know how to do it and practice a little first. The actual signal travels over the central wire, usually a single solid copper wire. This is jacketed with a thick layer of plastic, which is covered by a layer of foil, then lots of thin braided wires for shielding, and finally the outermost jacket.
The connectors I like to use when working with coax are the thread-on variety. Instead of crimping them onto the cable, you twist them on. They seem to hold better and look nicer than the cheap crimps. Swaged connectors are better yet, but they are expensive and require specialized tools. To put on any coax terminal, you strip the outer jacket back a ways, fold all the braiding back over the outer sheath, then strip off the plastic. You have to leave the right lengths of everything, which tends to take some practice to get right.
Refer to http://www.marine-electronics.net/techarticle/coax/f-185F.JPG to see a good example.
It is important to keep the braided shield as intact as possible and that it connects with the terminal, regardless of the type. The shield is what keeps interference out of the signal.
Like a fiend with his dope / a drunkard his wine / a man will have lust for the lure of the mine
"If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent." |
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Macsbug
Noble Donor
Location: St. Paul, MN
Gender: Male
Safety First!
| | | Re: Yet another Infiltration ethics question
<Reply # 12 on 10/27/2003 2:32 PM >
| | | | O.K. so you could cut the coax and crimp on some connecters and be set. Is it possible to "pin-out" (shove a large sewing needle/pin into the center wire, run feed from there) from the cable to get connected to it and leave the feed live? I don't know if the pin-out idea actually works, I had just discussed it before with friends when thinking about phone taps.
"Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it." |
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Caenos
Location: Winnipeg, Mb
Gender: Male
| | Re: Yet another Infiltration ethics question
<Reply # 13 on 10/27/2003 2:38 PM >
| | | | lol.... I have been threadjacked...
I wonder whats behind THAT door? |
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MacGyver
Location: St Paul, Minnesota
Gender: Male
"Someone go find me a paperclip, a D-cell battery, and a cheese grater"
| | Re: Yet another Infiltration ethics question
<Reply # 14 on 10/27/2003 4:30 PM >
| | | | Posted by macsbug
Is it possible to "pin-out" (shove a large sewing needle/pin into the center wire, run feed from there) from the cable to get connected to it and leave the feed live?
|
Nope. This works with plain old elecreical wire, like that on speakers and security systems, but this is coax. Coax depends on having near perfect shielding provided by the braided metal shield layer. You'd have to cut and splice it.
Like a fiend with his dope / a drunkard his wine / a man will have lust for the lure of the mine
"If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent." |
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Macsbug
Noble Donor
Location: St. Paul, MN
Gender: Male
Safety First!
| | | Re: Yet another Infiltration ethics question
<Reply # 15 on 10/27/2003 8:50 PM >
| | | | Posted by Krazy
Nope. This works with plain old elecreical wire, like that on speakers and security systems, but this is coax. Coax depends on having near perfect shielding provided by the braided metal shield layer. You'd have to cut and splice it.
|
Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Caenis: you said the camera "during school hours is only activated when one of the school's alarms are triggered."
What about non school hours? Are you thinking you will just pick it, becouse you will have to pick the deadbolt anyway? Are you sure that there is no way to just climb over the cage? I know that sounds stupid, but some cages have huge gaps at the top, or a way to squeeze through.
"Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it." |
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MacGyver
Location: St Paul, Minnesota
Gender: Male
"Someone go find me a paperclip, a D-cell battery, and a cheese grater"
| | Re: Yet another Infiltration ethics question
<Reply # 16 on 10/27/2003 9:07 PM >
| | | | how about hingepins? or unbolting the whole damn thing from the wall and replacing it behind you? Don't overlook the obvious but bizarre potential solutions.
Like a fiend with his dope / a drunkard his wine / a man will have lust for the lure of the mine
"If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent." |
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Ben
Noble Donor
Location: Mojave Desert
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Yet another Infiltration ethics question
<Reply # 17 on 10/27/2003 11:12 PM >
| | | | Given the motivation, I'm sure a tool could be built that would splice into coax in two seconds. It has undoubtedly been done before.
I'll put up $5 for the first person to use the biggest movie theft cliche in a real UE environment.
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DarkTreader
Gender: Male
| | Re: Yet another Infiltration ethics question
<Reply # 18 on 10/27/2003 11:54 PM >
| | | | If you've ever seen Bad Boys, the big sled thing that they use to get the heroin out? Yeah, we had a similar idea in the PES to basically build I-frame scooters to cruise at ground level and be undetected by sensors.
At least, that's what gave me the idea...
footsteps light, flashlights bright
-~ DT
Losers go home... winners go home and fuck the prom queen |
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Caenos
Location: Winnipeg, Mb
Gender: Male
| | Re: Yet another Infiltration ethics question
<Reply # 19 on 10/28/2003 3:47 AM >
| | | | I plan to do this during school hours, so the camera won't be a problem.
The cage was custom welded by the school's welding class... no such luck for any gap, and the door is designed with steel plates covering the hinges...
**restatement of situation**
The room layout has 2 cameras, both pointing towards the pull station, both with partial view of the stairwell and the cage door. The stairwell on the left (diagram) is upwards, and on the right is downwards. The cage stretches from below the steps on the left all the way up to the bottom edge of the next set of stairs above it. This cage is made of a thin, diamond shaped, steel grating, easily enough cut with linesman pliers. Our idea is to cut a hole at ']' of about 2x2 in, or about 4 by 4 cuts in the grate.
The idea is to use a pole that we have designed and tested to unlock the deadbolt on the cage door.
Consider that at the bottom of those stairs, there is another locked door that must be picked, so there is no real compremise of security even if we left the cage door open.
The pole used will not be left nearby.
The camera will be unattended and NOT RECORDING IN ANY WAY for about 3 minutes, long enough to mosey in the now unlocked door and lock it behind us.
Given the circumstances, do you consider this plan a good Course of action? or is the damage, although minor too much of a price?
You got a better plan?
**EDIT: lol, ascii pictures don't work on this board... guess I'll have to print screen it....
[last edit 10/28/2003 3:50 AM by Caenos - edited 2 times]
I wonder whats behind THAT door? |
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