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 MothMan
  
Noble Donor
Location: The Gem City
Gender: Male
If you didn't bring back any pictures with you then you obviously weren't there!
 |  | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 20 on 10/28/2003 3:29 AM >
|  | | | Let's get real here. There's no official "UE Code of Ethics" hanging around my neck. Not around yours either. Urban exploration is about the adventure. The rush. The game. And we all know it.
Can you get in? Can I? That's mostly the point. Getting to see the unknown, whether people are around or not, is the craving. It's part of the draw -- the lure -- that beckons and tantalizes.
And among the heady current of anticipation lies the flotsam of my morals, just beneath the surface there. Just look. You'll see 'em.
I've chosen to trespass, but now it's wrong for me to steal? Gimme a break. Quit moralizing the one over the other. If you're gonna trespass, do it. If you're gonna steal (in the context of this thread), then that's what you'll do. Is one more "wrong" than the other?
Hardly.
It's just that, the one you'll do and the other you won't. Personal preference. Conviction. Whatever.
I really did read the post. I'll prove it. I'll answer very much on topic. I would gladly take an artifact from a site I knew was slated for impending destruction. And I would do it whether you saw me do it, or whether you knew I did it or not. Why? Because part of my UE rationale, and it's a personal one, is preservation. Documentation and preservation.
I think most of us agree with the documentation bit. Take your pictures. It's the preservation ideology that separates us.
If the building is gonna fall under the bulldozer next week, and I find a little something that, in the context of my visit, happens to have meaning for me, I'll likely take it. If I believe or know the place to be in no threat of soon destruction, I'll not take anything.
Cuz I want you to be able to see it too. The building. The artifacts. The whole enchilada. Is it stealing or salvaging? (The very question itself imposes a moral judgement between the two, doesn't it? Both of 'em are forms of thievery.) I realize there are many who have an abundant passion for the adventure, in all its forms. That's why I won't quickly do something that might spoil the rush for someone else, following behind. Days, months, or years later.
But, neither will I be inclined to let a perfectly good trinket, bauble, or whats-it vanish into the dust. There is a very real part of what I do that may be considered a form of archaeology. The only real distinction is the span of time we're talking about. Centuries vs. decades. When I go out, the balance between documentation and preservation is mine to make.
[last edit 10/28/2003 3:31 AM by MothMan - edited 1 times]
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ReAct
Location: Northern Jersey... For now.
Gender: Male
| |  | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 21 on 10/28/2003 3:42 AM >
| | | | Posted by MothMan
If you're gonna trespass, do it. If you're gonna steal (in the context of this thread), then that's what you'll do. Is one more "wrong" than the other?
Hardly.
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In some respects we seem to be on the same page, but there is an important difference between the two acts you mentioned above: Trespassing by itself only affects you. Stealing something affects whomever that item may have belonged to. Mind you, that might not always be an applicable distinction in a lot of cases involving abanonded buildings and the like, but it seems important non-the-less.
In cases where the owner of something would miss what is taken, versus simply leaving your footprints on a dusty floor, one definitely is more "wrong" than the other.
-ReAct
"'13.2V...' Thirteen volts. It's thirteen volts? Jesus, I could practically be made of salt water and this wouldn't hurt me."
"That says '13.2kV.'"
"Ohhhh... Thirteen-thousand volts... I suppose that's a little different...." |
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Freak
  
Location: Usually Alaska, now MSP.
Gender: Male
Hypocrite
| |  | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 22 on 10/28/2003 9:53 AM >
| | | | Here's one morally sticky situation: An old building at an abandoned mine filled with decaying and water damaged records, maps, blueprints, work orders, employee accounts, and other papers. The owners don't want anyone taking documents for various reasons (I think partially because they don't want anyone to know about some of the safety and pay violations that happened back when the mine was active). They're sort of OK with me taking mine maps and photos (I asked them) but they want the rest to just dissapear without going to the trouble of gathering it up and burning it.
Now, is it right to steal other files from the building? A lot of this material is intersting historical information about the town and the mine, and it seems like it should be in a museum or at least preserved somewhere where it won't just rot or end up lining squirrel nests. In fact I feel bad just leaving it there, but I respect the wishes of the owners and leave it alone, aside from the few maps and files that they don't care about.
Turn off the internet and go play outside.
http://spamusement...hp/comics/view/137 |
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Ninjalicious
Gone, but always with us
Location: Toronto
| | | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 23 on 10/28/2003 1:58 PM >
|  | | | MothMan: That sounded very definitive, what with all the blunt two- and three-word sentences, but the fact is that some of us do see a real moral difference between trespassing and stealing. The fact that they're both crimes is pretty much immaterial to the discussion, since we're talking about morals. I have no urge to condemn what you do, but please don't insist that there's no difference between trespassing and stealing.
Ninj
http://www.infiltration.org
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MothMan
Noble Donor
Location: The Gem City
Gender: Male
If you didn't bring back any pictures with you then you obviously weren't there!
| | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 24 on 10/28/2003 3:37 PM >
| | | | Posted by ReAct
In cases where the owner of something would miss what is taken, versus simply leaving your footprints on a dusty floor, one definitely is more "wrong" than the other. |
I see your view. Point taken. (No pun intended.)
To reiterate, I'll not generally pilfer. I limit myself to those instances where the foreman has just fired up the bulldozer, or where the wrecking ball just had alot of fun. This is the circumstance where my rationale allows me to "take," if you please, if taking is appropriate. The loss of the building I can't prevent. The loss of an item I can. Especially an historically significant item.
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Viggen
Location: Chirstchurch, New Zealand
Gender: Male
| |  | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 25 on 10/28/2003 4:08 PM >
| | | | Posted by macsbug
That depends on who you are thinking of it being missed by. I'm sure there are plenty of things at the Canada Malting Plant that wouldn’t be missed by the owners, but would definitely take away from another explorers experience. You need to think about the other people who might be through that area, how long it will be around for, and the legal issues that could arise from you taking anything.
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"Being missed" would apply to almost everybody. The homeless, fellow explorers and the property owners would be included, but I couldn't care less about those who would go only to needlessly pilfer - if its going to be flogged, it doesn't really matter who flogs it. I also won't take anything I don't have a use for.
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MothMan
Noble Donor
Location: The Gem City
Gender: Male
If you didn't bring back any pictures with you then you obviously weren't there!
| | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 26 on 10/28/2003 4:39 PM >
| | | | Posted by Ninjalicious
MothMan: That sounded very definitive, what with all the blunt two- and three-word sentences... |
Sorry, didn't mean to bludgeon the reader with a blunt sentence, but I did intend to convey my views.  The shorter weapons were readily available.
| ...but the fact is that some of us do see a real moral difference between trespassing and stealing. |
I know some do. I don't pretend that they are equivalent actions. Not for a minute.
| The fact that they're both crimes is pretty much immaterial to the discussion... |
Is it now? The fact that they're crimes at all is typically the point at which one says they are "wrong" to do. A crime is a crime is a crime, if one holds the notion that crossing over the line of the law is a line not to be crossed.
| ...since we're talking about morals. |
And we were. That's right.
| I have no urge to condemn what you do, but please don't insist that there's no difference between trespassing and stealing. |
Well spoken, sir.
There is of course a radical difference in the two acts. The former is typically called a "victimless" crime, wherein no damage to property or person takes place. The latter, well it has a definite victim; the property owner. I know this. And I understand this. (I strayed off into personal RantLand on this topic. It happens sometimes.)
You know, there are those who flaunt the righteousness of breaking the law on the one hand, and the keeping of it in another. Two hands, same person. (This observation is not aimed at you, indirectly or otherwise.) But some do feel this way. My insistence on comparing trespassing with thievery was made in response to those kinds of viewpoints. Morally speaking, the two are unique, separate, and produce diverse consequences. Legally speaking, they're both infractions.
What matters most, I feel, is that I not harm someone. On the rare occasion that I do take something from a site, it is not with that intention. Rather, I might take it because I forsee it will be destroyed.
To explain: I've visited and old downtown high-rise in Springfield, Ohio. The building was half-gutted and had lain disused for seven or more years. Water damage, pigeon dung, and the skeletons of small animals abounded. The building will stand, and is slated for renovation into small efficiency apartments. While poking around the basement, I came across a manilla folder of yellowed stationery. It was a letterhead for a hotel that hadn't existed for at least 50-75 years, but which used to be in the building (I'm guessing). Anyway, I took the stationery. I did this with no purpose of harming anyone, and as far as I can tell, it would have been destroyed or thrown out with the rest of the building's old innards. These faded papers are proof of history. A history I did not get to discover until well after the fact.
I'm breaking the law by being there. I'm breaking the law by absconding with old letterhead. Morally, they differ. Legally, they don't (in the sense that an illegal action took place). I take issue with one who would use the law to justify one's morals, as in, "I'll commit this particular crime, but I won't break that law, so I'm O.K." That's where I was headed. Pointing my finger at the underlying rationalization that I do not condone.
This is a personally volatile topic, Ninj, and I appreciate your response.
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Chud
Try a 211, you'll just get 187'd...
| | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 27 on 10/28/2003 5:13 PM >
| | | | Moth, I think the point here is in fact that law has no meaning. When I walk past a no tresspassing sign, I don't contemplate the law, I just do what I want to, because I don't feel that it is wrong. But, on the other hand, when I see Jimmy's bike laying outside of an abandoned building, and I leave it there, it's not at all because the law says I can't. It's because I feel that taking the bike is wrong, because I did not earn it, someone else did.
The law doesn't often factor into my actions, but morals and ethics similar to the ones that inspired those laws often times do factor in. It's not just with stealing and tresspassing, either. When I'm speeding down the interstate at 85 mph, I only do so because I am confident that I won't hurt anybody. If traffic gets a little more dense, I slow down to a safe speed. Or when I'm angry at someone, and I don't beat the crap out of them, the law has nothing to do with it. I don't hurt them because I know what it would be like if they hurt me, and I don't want to do that to them.
So you see, while your actions (seemingly, from your statements) are based on law, many people's (especially, I would think, in this community) actions are based on what they personally feel is right and wrong. When people say they are proud for doing one thing and not another, try not to think of that as bragging about one crime while at the same time bragging about keeping another law. Think of it instead as that person proud because not only did they do the right thing, but they did it twice.
EDIT- I'm lazy and only read the first part of your post. I still stand by what I said, but perhaps it's not exactly aimed at what you really think.
EDIT2- In fact, after a more proper perusal of your post, I see that you and I are perhaps on similar tracks. Still, what I said is what I think, although had I read all of your post first I would have put quite a different slant on it.
[last edit 10/28/2003 5:20 PM by Chud - edited 2 times]
Nobody will not agree with the Russians, ever on anything.
-Kimmo |
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Caput_58
Location: Virginia, USA
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 28 on 10/28/2003 6:02 PM >
| | | | Posted by Freak
Now, is it right to steal other files from the building? A lot of this material is intersting historical information about the town and the mine, and it seems like it should be in a museum or at least preserved somewhere where it won't just rot or end up lining squirrel nests. In fact I feel bad just leaving it there, but I respect the wishes of the owners and leave it alone, aside from the few maps and files that they don't care about.
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If you tell them you won't, and they allow you in, then yes, its wrong. You're breaking your word to a property owner who is actually giving ou permission to explore. I'd say if you want to preserve some of the historical value of the documents, snap photos of them. This won't explicitly violate your agreement, and as long as those photographed documents are never used against the owners, in satisfies the implications of the agreement as well.
Caput_58
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Ninjalicious
Gone, but always with us
Location: Toronto
| | | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 29 on 10/29/2003 2:57 PM >
| | | | Posted by MothMan
The fact that they're crimes at all is typically the point at which one says they are "wrong" to do.
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That may be "typically" the point at which "one" says some action is wrong, but this is because most people think so little and so unclearly about these issues that they tend to mix laws and ethics together, instead of realizing just how drastically different the two are.
If the hypothetical typical person we're discussing paid more attention to the difference between laws and ethics, he or she would realize that the law has nothing to do with whether or not something is "wrong", merely whether or not it is illegal.
I don't care much whether or not I stay on the right side of the law, as long as I don't get fined or sent to jail, whereas I care a lot about behaving ethically. I think we should just leave questions of the law and crime entirely out of these ethical debates. Laws and morals share a distant ancestor, but that's about all they have in common these days.
My insistence on comparing trespassing with thievery was made in response to those kinds of viewpoints. Morally speaking, the two are unique, separate, and produce diverse consequences. Legally speaking, they're both infractions.
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I think I get you. In your first message ("I've chosen to trespass, but now it's wrong for me to steal? Gimme a break. Quit moralizing the one over the other"), you seemed to be saying that because case B (illegality) was true of both trespassing and stealing, that it was therefore hypocritical or silly to discuss whether or not case A (morality) was true of both. You seemed to be saying that B overrode A, though you admitted A was still worth considering. I'm saying that A overrides B, though I admit that B is still worth considering.
Ninj
http://www.infiltration.org
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uem-Mokonax
Location: Montréal, Canada
| | | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 30 on 10/29/2003 3:30 PM >
|  | | | You have to ask yourself, "Are all laws ethical?" If you answer "No." then you must leave out laws as a basis of ethicality in a debate about ethics.
You must then find another base for ethical thought. Herein is where the problem lies, because we all think differently, ethically, for different reasons.
An extensive dialog, perhaps beyond the scope of this thread, is probably the only way to come to a complete consensus
"Dark blue is the geek's black." - Tux, OPE 95
Urban Exploration Montreal |
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trynocorn
| | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 31 on 10/29/2003 4:39 PM >
| | | | so many laws and ethics...I just do whatever works
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TechnoTed
Location: Whitby
Gender: Male
Warning: This user steals babies from sites.
| | | | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 32 on 10/30/2003 1:36 AM >
|  | | | When I find something interesting at a location, I'll take it to keep for nostalgic purposes. I particularily like articles with a date or name on it, to give a little bit of background.
I know a lot of people see this as taking away from the overall feel of the location. I agree with this, but I have seen so many incredible pieces destroyed or burned that my collecting of it seems like the most suitable and respectable fate.
I keep everything I find in a label and dated ziploc bag for organization. My way of holding onto history before the contractors and condominium owners come in with their sheet metal and concrete.
"House is haunted
I just want to go for a ride
Out and on; before I set this room alight
Left alone forever and for crimes unclear
With my patience gone, someone take me far from here"
-Gasoline by Audioslave |
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uem-Mokonax
Location: Montréal, Canada
| | | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 33 on 10/30/2003 2:24 AM >
| | | | Posted by Gage Against The Machine
I keep everything I find in a label and dated ziploc bag for organization. My way of holding onto history before the contractors and condominium owners come in with their sheet metal and concrete.
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You weirdo.
"Dark blue is the geek's black." - Tux, OPE 95
Urban Exploration Montreal |
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'Dukes
Noble Donor
Gender: Male
At least someone llikes me
| | | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 34 on 10/30/2003 3:13 AM >
| | | | Weirdo? I think that a)that's very unfair to say based on a post on a forum, and b) you don't know where the guy explores, maybe he's right and a lot of the stuff he's seen has ended up on the demolition list. A lot of museums have exhibits of ancient history, which are all categorized , e.t.c.., people don't necessarily label them "weirdo's"
On the other side of the coin, the places I've been in are so rarely visited, I don't touch a thing. The worst thing I've done is dicard the AA's from my digicam because the place couldn't get more contaminated (right next to an old transformer). Here's some old paystubs in a mining facility in upstate NY from 1974
Seemed like they've been there since the place closed. Moved them with one finger, but left for future explorers.
Power usage records at power station for the mine:
Again, looked but didn't disturb. The place always amazes me because a lot of people go there, but no graffiti, not many people go in the buildings.
Anyway, this place has another thirty years before it could even be eligible for demolition, but where the "weirdo" as you put it lives may be a different story.
I got your tour winner right here pussies, at least he'd crash out trying. |
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TechnoTed
Location: Whitby
Gender: Male
Warning: This user steals babies from sites.
| | | | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 35 on 10/30/2003 4:12 AM >
| | | | lol Actually none of the locations that I have visited are set for demolition anytime soon. I'm just a weirdo. I admit it.
I've always been a pack rat. I save everything.
"House is haunted
I just want to go for a ride
Out and on; before I set this room alight
Left alone forever and for crimes unclear
With my patience gone, someone take me far from here"
-Gasoline by Audioslave |
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'Dukes
Noble Donor
Gender: Male
At least someone llikes me
| | | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 36 on 10/30/2003 5:18 AM >
| | | | Alright Gage, I spent a lot of time defending you. You are a weirdo ( I would just call you a freak of nature). You're on your own.
I got your tour winner right here pussies, at least he'd crash out trying. |
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'Dukes
Noble Donor
Gender: Male
At least someone llikes me
| | | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 37 on 10/30/2003 5:20 AM >
| | | | Why don't you "save" that stuff for someone else to see, what are you going to do open a f******* museum kid? This is just the thing that gets me heated.
I got your tour winner right here pussies, at least he'd crash out trying. |
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Samurai
Vehicular Lord Rick
Location: northeastern New York
No matter where you go, there you are...
| | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 38 on 10/30/2003 5:57 AM >
| | | | Wow... neat topic.
Here's my take on it... I do two kinds of exploring, the kind we talk about here and something I like to call junkyard archeology. Let me explain the latter and how it relates the former. OK, I am a car goon. I love blowing a whole afternoon wandering around a salvage yard. The reason is the same as wandering through abandoned or derelict places; i love getting a sense of history, of time, of relevance. Each car, like each building, has a story to tell. In the course of a good junkyard jaunt, I like to come away with something off of a car, usually an emblem or license plate, something. In the case of a good building or place, I like to come away with either pictures or something.
In my case, I have violate the the unofficial U.E. code of conduct but once (and this was before I knew there was a U.E. anything). i swiped a mint US Civil Defense geiger counter from a pile of dusty bird dung. It sits in our clubhouse now. In retrospect, after reading the many points of view on this subject, I really wish that I had not taken the item from its final resting place. It has taken away from the sense of "time" that the place has existed in and that I think is the most important part of what we do.
Underneath the rush of trespassing, or infiltrating, isn't that awe-inspiring sense of time you get from an abandoned place taking your mind for a walk? Everytime I go someplace new, it feels like I am stepping back into another time, another era. History that has been left behind for us to explore firsthand. Taking things out of that environment really takes away from the experience and then a place becomes just that; just another place with dust, dirt and birdshit.
If the building is getting bulldozed the next day, the metal beasts are parked at the gates, salvage what you can. If the place is just going to waste away until the condo monsters invade, leave the items alone.
samurai
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DarkTreader
Gender: Male
| | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 39 on 10/30/2003 8:30 AM >
| | | | I agree with most of what's being said here: If you know beyond a shadow of a doubt, that within, say, a week of you hitting a site, it'll be getting smashed to rubble, then its salvaging and what you find is fair game. On the other hand, if you're just walking around swiping things left and right, you're just a klepto.
Now, I do have a bit of a story with this as well. Last week... um... Wednesday, I believe, I went out with a friend UE-ing to a building that was in the process of being demolished (i.e. half of the building was already gone and open to the air). Now, after having to free-climb the bits and pieces of rubble to get to the 3rd story, we stumbled across an old box of books from the early 20th century. When we flipped through them and saw that they were actually that old, we put them back in the box as we'd found them, thinking that someone would be along to get them.
As we were leaving though, we stumbled across the foreman's sheet (or what we figured was that) that gave days and times and whatnot for things to happen. The building was supposed to come down the very next day. At that point, we both decided that, if the salvage crews had come through and ignored them already, they were ours... 'czu there was no way some 35 year old guy with a pot belly and a flannel shirt was going to climb up to the 3rd floor the same way we did (and that was basically the only way to get there). So we climbed back up and got as many of them as would fit in our bag. Now I feel bad for not having taken more, because we also found these beautiful hand-carved oak table-legs that, if we were so inclined, would've easily sold for about $90 each. (We didn't realize that these were what they were until we returned back to my place and I had a chance to actually watch the footage and compare it to what I could find on the 'net.)
I consider what we did to be salvaging, because we saved those books from being destroyed. With the state that the rest of the place was in, I'd say no one gave a damn what happened to anything else in there, as long as it wound up in a dumpster.
Crucify me if you want, but I feel that what I did was right. These are pieces of history - with notes scribbled in the margins and everything.
footsteps light, flashlights bright
-~ DT
Losers go home... winners go home and fuck the prom queen |
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