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 Kay O. Sweaver
 
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Gender: Male
Happiness is saying yes more often than no.
 |  | Re: UEA strive for Darwin Awards
<Reply # 20 on 10/31/2005 5:20 AM >
|  | | | Mr. Sable you've done some dumb shit of your own in the past and I haven't publically disparaged you for it. When it was pointed out to me that publishing this stuff wasn't wise I took it down. You on the other hand have decided to distribute it far and wide. To what end? As a personal attack.
If you wanted to preserve the reputation and sancitity of this hobby you would have dealth with this personally, directly and discretely. You have done no such thing. Good job.
I wish I understood why you persist on your vendetta against me. We had problems, a long time ago. If you must hold a grude keep it to yourself instead of smearing this whole forum with your anger.
==========================
Amy Smith is an infected slut |
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AgentNox
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Gender: Female
I love the smell of asbestos in the morning!
| |  |  | Re: UEA strive for Darwin Awards
<Reply # 21 on 10/31/2005 5:23 AM >
| | | | Jesus fuck.
These guys are usually ethical. I'd offer excuses but I wasn't there and I'd only by hypothesizing.
Because I'm associated with UEA (and generally happy to be so) I have requested they remove the video.
"If you don't have bits of gear dangling from you, then you're not really adventuring."
Noxography || Flickr Stream |
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: UEA strive for Darwin Awards
<Reply # 22 on 10/31/2005 5:26 AM >
|  | | | Posted by AgentNox
Jesus fuck.
These guys are usually ethical. I'd offer excuses but I wasn't there and I'd only by hypothesizing.
Because I'm associated with UEA (and generally happy to be so) I have requested they remove the video.
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Ethics aren't a "usually" type of thing. If they are, then the ethics aren't strong and can't be depended upon.
My sig here has a lot of meaning, and maybe some people should try to understand it...
[last edit 10/31/2005 5:27 AM by Jester - edited 1 times]
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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Mister Sable
Location: Palliser City
Gender: Male
The Man with the Hat (the other man)
| | | Re: UEA strive for Darwin Awards
<Reply # 23 on 10/31/2005 5:45 AM >
| | | | Think about who performed those acts, about who wrote and posted the article and pictures and video and then sit back and contemplate good and hard why UEA has the reputation it does. Think about the motivation for throwing fireworks into a UE/heritage site, why the article was written and posted publically, and why the videos were posted publically. I wish you understood a lot of that stuff too.
Of course I've made mistakes. I try to learn from mine. I admit when I'm wrong. I try not to repeat mistakes. I try to do the right thing. I try to be a good person. Often, I'm not, but I try.
A little humility goes a long way. So does a lot of arrogance, it just goes a long way in the other direction.
"...and that's all I got to say about that." - Forrest Gump
[last edit 10/31/2005 6:25 AM by Mister Sable - edited 1 times]
Cloak and dagger, man, cloak and dagger. |
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Kay O. Sweaver
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Gender: Male
Happiness is saying yes more often than no.
| | Re: UEA strive for Darwin Awards
<Reply # 24 on 10/31/2005 7:40 AM >
| | | | So are you saying that my voluntarily removing the inappropriate content is a good or a bad thing? I'm trying to respond to your criticisms appropriately. Help me out here.
I think we all agree that the actions were stupid. I also think that a large number of us have to admit that once or twice we've done similar stupid things. The content has been removed, let's consider that a positive step. If you have further complaints/accusations let's discuss them in a reasonable fashion, preferably not in a public forum viewed by hundreds of people. I'm open to criticism provided its not motivated by a desire to slander.
/sarcasim If you'd like to police the UE community in terms of ethics I can point you to at least a dozen threads here on UER of sheer stupidity at work. Please flame them with the same disgression you've given us, your former friends. /sarcasim
You raised valid points, but you could have done so in a much more sensitive manner. C'mon. I don't want conflict.
ADDITION: The motivation? Hubris. Pure and simple. I'll admit it. We wanted to look hardcore in front of a Cave Clanner. I think that covers a lot of it. Its damn stupid and it it hadn't have been for a lot of random factors coming together in one place it wouldn't have happened.
I didn't throw anything, but I didn't stop anyone either. I recorded it, I posted it. I didn't think anyone paid attention to UEA anymore. It wasn't until Agent Nox pointed out that people DO browse our site that I realised the audience was more than just us, so I took it down. Not out of shame, but out of a sense of responsibility. I know it was dumb, the first and last paragraphs of the report make that clear. We did it anyways, I'm not hiding that, nor am I proud of it.
[last edit 10/31/2005 7:44 AM by Kay O. Sweaver - edited 1 times]
==========================
Amy Smith is an infected slut |
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Obscura
Gender: Male
Nikonwhore
| | Re: UEA strive for Darwin Awards
<Reply # 25 on 10/31/2005 8:35 AM >
| | | | Posted by Kay O. Sweaver
Mr. Sable you've done some dumb shit of your own in the past and I haven't publically disparaged you for it. When it was pointed out to me that publishing this stuff wasn't wise I took it down. You on the other hand have decided to distribute it far and wide. To what end? As a personal attack.
If you wanted to preserve the reputation and sanctity of this hobby you would have dealth with this personally, directly and discretely. You have done no such thing. Good job.
I wish I understood why you persist on your vendetta against me. We had problems, a long time ago. If you must hold a grude keep it to yourself instead of smearing this whole forum with your anger.
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As a personal attack? What an ego...
The reputation and sanctity of this hobby? Yeah, throwing fireworks at Hells Half Acre and recording it really shows that you mean that KAOS... good job for you.
EDIT Ooops sorry, that's right you didn't throw any fireworks, my mistake. You were busy basking in the firelight as DOP.
[last edit 10/31/2005 9:04 AM by Obscura - edited 1 times]
Obscura
"Grizzly...Who's Steve?" |
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: UEA strive for Darwin Awards
<Reply # 26 on 10/31/2005 4:54 PM >
| | | | I just find it very ironic, the originators of the *urbanaut* (the perfect ethical explorer) are the ones to do something like this...
Or did I miss in the definition of urbanaut: hypocrite
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: UEA strive for Darwin Awards
<Reply # 27 on 10/31/2005 5:46 PM >
| | | | 1. Mr Sable is having a fight with K over a girl, thus making his motivations for a such a post questionable. I never had issue with him but many of us have been caught in the breakup what was 2 friends who I thought really cared about each other. Since many of us knew K before Mr. Sable some people get stuck on one side of the divorce, others on the other side. Obviously there are axes that are being ground, I just wish the rest of us could be left out of it.
2. no one here is was there and thus is talking out their ass.
3. there was no risk of fire, well there was 100% certainty of fire, there has been 30 foot flames there for nearly 80 years already. The metal buildngs on the other side of the property and hill 500 yards away were quite safe. (the building nearby was torn down recently due to the floods this spring.)
4. There is a river 60 feet away
5. This was not UE. Hence why it is now not UEA but is still on google and will remain there.
6. K made a judgement call that was a bad one by putting it on the UEA site but he did nothing ethically wrong.
No one was trying to create any kind of impression with anyone. We use fireworks on quite a regular basis at many events some even UE related. There have never been any incidents and actually Mr Sable was the one that introduced me to fireworks in drains. I have video of a firework bouncing off of him as he ran directly in the path of one on purpose in a drain. I saw no issue with that at the time even though it meant the rest of us would have been on the hook to help in the even of an accident but I was and still am ok with that.
This is just an attempt at personal attacks by those who wish to make themselves look better in theirs other others eyes. If people out there are really that in need of social acceptance, lacking parental love from childhood etc, I will facilitate that.
For the record, everyone at UEA, are souless losers who lack any friends or social life, they have no ethics and if you see them on the street you should avoid them as they a have a black evil bile that run through their veins.
This is my last word on the subject as I have better things to do than hang out there (and I would count shooting fireworks at a 30 foot flame with people outside as much more worthwhile than spending time in an Internet forum)
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: UEA strive for Darwin Awards
<Reply # 28 on 10/31/2005 5:51 PM >
| | | | Edit: and for the record, for Jester, I am always your hypocrite and I hope that never changes for the sake of our love.
I have to admit, now that I am a known hypocrite and suspected homosexual it is a relief.
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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Crossfire
 
Location: Kay-Dub
Gender: Male
Don't call it a comeback, I've been here for years.
| |  |  | | Re: UEA strive for Darwin Awards
<Reply # 29 on 10/31/2005 5:54 PM >
| | | | Posted by Skaught
...suspected homosexual...
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Oh, it's not suspected anymore. Not since those pictures were circulated.
Disgruntled. |
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: UEA strive for Darwin Awards
<Reply # 30 on 10/31/2005 6:19 PM >
| | | | Posted by Skaught
Edit: and for the record, for Jester, I am always your hypocrite and I hope that never changes for the sake of our love.
I have to admit, now that I am a known hypocrite and suspected homosexual it is a relief.
|
How are you not a hypocrite in this ?
You proclaim to have strong ethics, yet you think this is ok ?
If your urbanaut idea had actually become reality, you and all your ethical participants would be the first out of the urbanaut membership on your asses after this.
At least Kaos has the grounding in reality to realize it was stupid and apparently regret being a part of it, you on the other hand Skaught, seem to think it was just fine and the only problem is you being called out for your stupidity. Always trying to push blame for your actions elsewhere. So instead of it being an issue of your lack of ethics at a UE site, you try to make it seem like some sort of witch hunt to persecute you unfairly.
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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siologen
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
I Go Where The Drains Are
| | | Re: UEA strive for Darwin Awards
<Reply # 31 on 10/31/2005 6:21 PM >
| | | | We do stupid shit all the time back home in OZ, Cave Clan is based on stupid stuff.
If you aint willing to have some fun, even risky fun, well whats the point.
You all sound a bit jealous. I had am amazing time the month i lived in Calgary, and not only that, but having Calgarians along to Opex in Montreal made the experience all the more fun.
UEA is a model group of explorers.
Those who dont like one of the largest UE groups in Canada may want to examine exactly why.
Ppl who go out and windowshop explore be damned.
And BTW, i dont reply after my first post in a flamewar. 
Siologen
Big Drayyynes!
http://siologen.livejournal.com Blog |
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: UEA strive for Darwin Awards
<Reply # 32 on 10/31/2005 6:30 PM >
| | | | Posted by siologen
We do stupid shit all the time back home in OZ, Cave Clan is based on stupid stuff.
If you aint willing to have some fun, even risky fun, well whats the point.
You all sound a bit jealous. I had am amazing time the month i lived in Calgary, and not only that, but having Calgarians along to Opex in Montreal made the experience all the more fun.
UEA is a model group of explorers.
Those who dont like one of the largest UE groups in Canada may want to examine exactly why.
Ppl who go out and windowshop explore be damned.
And BTW, i dont reply after my first post in a flamewar.
Siologen
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Regardless of how you like them as people, this is pure hypocrisy from them. They came up with a grande idea to have *urbanauts* (explorers with strong ethics, etc etc) and then do what they did there... The two things are opposites. What they did would go against their ideal. Hypocritical
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: UEA strive for Darwin Awards
<Reply # 33 on 10/31/2005 6:42 PM >
| | | | Posted by Jester
How are you not a hypocrite in this ?
|
I said "for the record, I am a hypocrite"
Yes I do not support damaging UE Sites and I have had to so in the course of my life. I have even torn down buildings! I have taken steps to block explorers from exploring locations for my own monetary goals too.
Ultimately the issue of risk yadda yadda is mote. I want to give you your satisfaction (cue benni bennassi video).
So in all cases Jester is right. Unless you want me to argue that I am right.
How I do I play the game here? Whatever gives you satisfaction.
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: UEA strive for Darwin Awards
<Reply # 34 on 10/31/2005 6:50 PM >
| | | | Posted by Skaught
I said "for the record, I am a hypocrite"
|
At least it would be an honest representation.
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: UEA strive for Darwin Awards
<Reply # 35 on 10/31/2005 7:01 PM >
| | | | I just thought about it and am going to make you an offer Jester.
Obviously making me look bad means a great deal to you so here is your chance.
Email me with a scenario that makes me look really bad and stokes your ego. I will keep the details of the scenario a secret and we can play it out on here.
Why would I do this? Firstly I really do not give a crap what people think. Secondly if I can help someone feel better about themselves then I am doing my good deed for the day. Thirdly there is a slight chance that you may learn something and lastly I have a few minutes to kill this week.
This left the realm of intelligent discussion a long time ago so why stop now.
edit:
Hey I just realized something. You are the first person to call me dishonest in 10 years, I am intrieged.
[last edit 10/31/2005 7:04 PM by Skaught - edited 1 times]
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: UEA strive for Darwin Awards
<Reply # 36 on 10/31/2005 7:11 PM >
| | | | I would far prefer you were as you previously advertised yourself to be Skaught.
You have always proclaimed strong ethics, as have I. Difference here is my ethics don't get broken like this. I take my ethics seriously, it's not just lip service for the masses.
You end up being shown to obviously not care so much about the ethics you professed, and that bothers me. If you can't trust a person to stand by their own ideals, what can you trust them to do ?
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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Mister Sable
Location: Palliser City
Gender: Male
The Man with the Hat (the other man)
| | | Re: UEA strive for Darwin Awards
<Reply # 37 on 10/31/2005 7:14 PM >
| | | | Posted by Skaught
1. Mr Sable is having a fight with K over a girl. |
You have been outright misinformed, probably by Agent K, who is outright confused about that. Girls don't enter into this in anyway. Jealously or competition don't enter into at all, in any way on either side. This is only about an incident that not only shouldn't have happened by shouldn't have been boasted about... in my opinion (which doesn't mean jack to anyone).
There's a whole lot of "I am the Great and Powerful Oz!" here followed by way too much of "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" kind of distraction and misdirection.
If one wants to be considered an asshole, one should act like an asshole. If one wants to appear ethical, one should be ethical or act ethically. There's not much more to it than that.
Most of the members of UEA are good and personable indivduals in person, even if they don't appear so online. Please just learn from this rather than slinging blame at others.
By the way, in the drain, made of concrete, with a floor of water, there is no danger of anything burning using fireworks. The only person or thing at risk that time was me, and note I have never posted the video or reported that incident.
Cloak and dagger, man, cloak and dagger. |
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: UEA strive for Darwin Awards
<Reply # 38 on 10/31/2005 7:17 PM >
| | | | I just realized something else, do all the people here realize what that site is? Do they realize that there is a fire there that has been burning for 80 some odd years?
This whole thing is akin to throwing a firework into a burning tire fire.
. . . a drop in the ocean.
It is a actually a very good spot. Using fireworks in a place that has been burning for 80 years means there is no flammable material in the area.
Basking in the light? That was standing at the observation point watching the flames that were there before anyone on this site was alive.
What better place to start a fire than in a fire?
Anyone who has worked in the oilfield whould know that in some cases fire is a good thing. What is the first thing they do when a well starts to leak? They start tossing flares at it. If the easterners want to know why they can dig it up online, I am tired of typing and have work to do.
Fireworks and UE in UEA came from two places, a local pyrotech and his former friend who was a cave clan member.
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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kowalski
| | Re: UEA strive for Darwin Awards
<Reply # 39 on 10/31/2005 7:22 PM >
| | | | Well, I think it's disingenuous to conflate this fireworks thing with a judgement on their UE ethics. It seems to be that the timeline was they explored something, finished that, and then decided to go throw a bunch of explosives at a natural gas flame a significant distance away from anything they might have been exploring.
The ethical questions are should you do stupid shit like that to a non-explorable heritage site, should you publicize it when you do, and should it weigh on your character as an explorer?
KAOS made the mistake of connecting a random act of stupidity with exploring (and the people on the trip made the mistake of doing these two activities in direct succession). He's being criticized both here and within UEA for doing so and has admitted to its having been a mistake.
Those who have questions about UEA's ethical seriousness could be expected to read this as further evidence to support their doubts, and those whose ethical operants are more flexible are able to say "okay, they explored and then they were hooligans, but they were not the two simultaneously." I don't think Siologen, for instance, would have a problem exploring with Jester and having fun while adhering to the tactical necessities that Jester operates under, and yet he's also defending UEA here.
The reality is, exploration takes place on a continuum between serious pursuit and casual social activity. The people who see it as one or the other (and they are in evidence on both sides of the debate here) find it difficult to accept that people on the other side of the continuum have any credibility. But they do. Cave Clan has spent twenty years being explorers AND hooligans. It's on their turf, it's what they do, and it generally goes fine. They occasionally do some really stupid stuff, so does UEA, so do some of the New England groups.
What we need to be doing is having discussions about specific points of ethical question: when are things appropriate, how should they be done, etc. If you don't feel comfortable with a group's approach, there's very little you can do except in extreme situations other than to choose not to associate with them and to explain rationally to them why you feel their behaviour is problematic. I've seen lots of groups all over the place do some really questionable things, but I don't see anything constructive in telling them they're idiots and have no right to take part in the hobby. Villifying them publicly doesn't achieve anything except reinforce the gulf between you and discourage communication. On the other hand, making other people aware of what they're doing in a thoughtful manner is a good idea.
I'd defend Sable's decision to post this here and call out some obviously stupid behaviour where the global community can consider it, though I don't think his entire approach to it has been necessarily justified. There's lots of other dirty laundry that's been drawn in here that didn't need to be, that SHOULD be discussed in private. It may have nothing to do with girls, it does however have to do with a fairly sore, long-running split in the Calgary community that is a politics far beyond the knowledge of most UER members. That unfortunately bleeds into the discussion as does the Anymouse/Skaught vs. Jester split, and neither underlying conflict does anything to extend or improve the debate here.
And I'd encourage people who are interested in having a serious conversation to start a thread about the ethics and safety considerations of fire and fireworks: What small margin of situations and environments are they appropriate in? What are all the ways you might be putting yourself, your companions or the site around you at risk? How should you approach discussing your use of such items (everything from wax candles to roman candles and beyond) in a public setting?
This was somewhere between a goofily and monumentally stupid thing to do, and people who take the hobby seriously would probably be right to take it into consideration when thinking about whether and what to explore with people from UEA. It was probably a lot of fun, it didn't specifically happen while they were exploring something, but it was also silly and foolish and unthoughtful. It's up to people individually to decide whether that colours their impression of UEA as explorers. I know I'd still explore with them if I'm ever passing through Calgary again, but I certainly wouldn't hesitate to assert my own expectations regarding care, responsibility and seriousness where necessary.
[last edit 10/31/2005 7:27 PM by kowalski - edited 2 times]
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