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UER Mobile > Private Boards Index > Religious Discussion > When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture. (Viewed 14933 times)

post by splumer

Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
<Reply # 40 on 2/6/2012 1:58 PM >

Posted by earthworm

I see the distinction you're making but I don't see the difference. Take that first sentence and put it into the terms of american politics:

The difference is, that unlike democrats, republicans require one to not ask why, to voluntarily submit to unreasonable ideas, to make leaps of faith.

The difference is, that unlike republicans, democrats require one to not ask why, to voluntarily submit to unreasonable ideas, to make leaps of faith.

Your tautology could be applied to any political system.

I disagree. While there is some appeal to "faith" in politics, such as Obama appeals to hope during the 2008 campaign, politicians, especially incumbents, have to produce tangible results if they want to win elections. In other words, they have to produce evidence that they are effective politicians, or that their philosophy and ideas are effective. Religion is never held to that standard when making grandiose claims.

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post by earthworm

Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
<Reply # 41 on 2/6/2012 5:58 PM >

Posted by splumer

I disagree. While there is some appeal to "faith" in politics, such as Obama appeals to hope during the 2008 campaign, politicians, especially incumbents, have to produce tangible results if they want to win elections. In other words, they have to produce evidence that they are effective politicians, or that their philosophy and ideas are effective. Religion is never held to that standard when making grandiose claims.

What I'm saying there is that partisans will accuse the other side of submitting to unreasonable ideas and leaps of faith. Each partisan will show evidence that they are effective and the other side is not. Each side believes their own rhetoric, regardless of where the truth actually is. Is that untrue?

I'm also saying that atheism, as a whole, is partisan; e.g., if any counter argument to its dogma is presented it is instantly shot down without actual consideration.

To my main point though, here's another example: The holy war against whales.

Back in the Nantucket whaling days preachers in whaling towns would go on about how it was people's religious duty to go out and kill whales; that whales were the demon Leviathan, that they were cursed beasts that survived the Noah's flood sent by god to purify the earth, etc.

Why would they say this?

My answer is that whaling was a dangerous activity that was economically important to people that didn't exactly need to do it. The people living in the North East at the time were basically frontiersmen: hardy and fairly self sufficient. They could get by fine without whaling, though without whaling their community wouldn't be as complex, i.e. wouldn't be able to support full time clerics.

So, if enough people die hunting whales for what are simple economic reasons while there are alternatives ways to survive, whaling might be abandoned by enough experienced whalers that whaling itself would die. Why put your life on the line if there are easier ways to survive?

The preachers go on to say that the people that die at sea are martyrs in the battle against Leviathan. It's not all that much different than the preachers saying that those that die in battle against the great Satan are martyrs, or that those that fight in the crusade are granted land in the holy land.

The underlying point that I'm trying to make with all this is that holy wars really aren't so holy and that for someone to say that religion is the cause of anything ignores any other cause. Also, I find it funny that this idea is being rejected. I guess part of why that might be is that social pressure isn't measured in PSI, that is, it's not a hard science especially when it comes to history.

[last edit 2/6/2012 6:53 PM by earthworm - edited 1 times]

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post by splumer

Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
<Reply # 42 on 2/7/2012 2:27 PM >

Posted by earthworm

What I'm saying there is that partisans will accuse the other side of submitting to unreasonable ideas and leaps of faith. Each partisan will show evidence that they are effective and the other side is not. Each side believes their own rhetoric, regardless of where the truth actually is. Is that untrue?

OK, I see that. I think to follow any political philosophy, you have to accept it as a principle, though. For example, conservatives believe individual taxes should be lower because people earned that money, it should be theirs to keep. Why? No real reason, just because it's theirs. You could probably produce some evidence to support that belief, but basically it's just a matter of principle.

I'm also saying that atheism, as a whole, is partisan; e.g., if any counter argument to its dogma is presented it is instantly shot down without actual consideration.

I'm reminded of what Christopher Hitchens said: "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." Ideally, when atheists were presented with reliable evidence that proved a belief wrong, they would change their minds to conform with the new evidence. People being what they are, though, we know that doesn't always happen. But I would also argue that atheism isn't a dogma; it is a lack of dogma. Sure, there are certain tenets of atheism that are standard, but again, they're standard because of the lack of dogma. I'm not sure I'm fully articulating what I'm trying to say here.

Back in the Nantucket whaling days preachers in whaling towns would go on about how it was people's religious duty to go out and kill whales; that whales were the demon Leviathan, that they were cursed beasts that survived the Noah's flood sent by god to purify the earth, etc.

I wasn't aware of that.

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post by earthworm

Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
<Reply # 43 on 2/7/2012 9:02 PM >

well sir, you're reasonable.

[last edit 2/7/2012 9:02 PM by earthworm - edited 1 times]

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post by KublaKhan

Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
<Reply # 44 on 2/8/2012 8:38 PM >

Posted by Samurai

i would actively seek these people out and MAKE them interact with me, just for the intimidation factor.

Yes well...seems their women folk are a tad bit brighter than the husbands, because they (wives) keep smiling and waving and saying things like 'Hi y'all Johnny' and inviting me over for tea...presumably while their husbands (the handsome televangelist types) are out studying biblical scripture, etc. So it's not like I have to do any...you know...WORK...to make myself felt in their presence. I just go outside.

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post by Samurai

Vehicular Lord Rick

Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
<Reply # 45 on 2/8/2012 9:00 PM >

ever notice when these religious weinerheads start waving the flag and spouting off about their rights to worship, they seem to have forgotten that the United States was founded on the principle of freedom FROM religion.

what i thoroughly enjoy is reading the comments posted after stories in the news section of the Yahoo page (I have a couple of email addresses I use for different enterprises). I loved the comments posted after reading about how Proposition 8 in Kalifornia was deemed unconstitutional...
it's nice to know that because I am a gay man that I am less than a man, lower than an animal, an abomination that should be killed and something my mother should've drowned.
(these were actual comments left about homosexuals)

always brings a smile to my face.

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post by MutantMandias

Perverse and Often Baffling

Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
<Reply # 46 on 2/9/2012 1:00 AM >

Posted by Samurai
they seem to have forgotten that the United States was founded on the principle of freedom FROM religion.

Not even remotely true. It was freedom to practice the (Christian) religion of your choice. Anyone expressing an idea of freedom from religion would probably have been put in jail.

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post by earthworm

Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
<Reply # 47 on 2/9/2012 4:10 AM >

Posted by MutantMandias

Not even remotely true. It was freedom to practice the (Christian) religion of your choice. Anyone expressing an idea of freedom from religion would probably have been put in jail.

If that was the case In early US history I would say it's an example of institutionalized cultural homogenization, not necessarily on just religious difference. Case in point, the Mormons were persecuted for cultural practices (polygamy) rather than disavowing Christ. All thier bullshit about the Indians being a lost tribe might not have helped their case, but the main point of deviance isn't so much in scripture as cultural attitudes.

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post by splumer

Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
<Reply # 48 on 2/9/2012 8:56 PM >

Posted by Samurai
it's nice to know that because I am a gay man that I am less than a man, lower than an animal, an abomination that should be killed and something my mother should've drowned.
(these were actual comments left about homosexuals)

always brings a smile to my face.

But you're still more trusted than atheists.

Oh wait. You're an atheist too. You're screwed.

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post by tekriter

Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
<Reply # 49 on 2/10/2012 2:27 PM >

It seems this is true in practice today, but I'm not sure that accurately describes the intent of your founding fathers:

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology." Thomas Jefferson

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes." John Adams

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." Thomas Paine

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries." James Madison

"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society." George Washington

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post by MutantMandias

Perverse and Often Baffling

Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
<Reply # 50 on 2/10/2012 4:39 PM >

I am quite familiar with all of these delightful quotes, and it is obvious that they were brilliant and extremely enlightened (for their time).

However, what they deemed essential was not a freedom from religion at all. They were all religious men (but if they were running for office today, they would surely be skewered for not being good enough at being religious... which would probably just make them say "Fuck you guys," and go off to form a cool country somewhere else).

They believed in God, and that God created the universe, and that God created the universe based on... here's the shocker... Natural Law, and that observation and experimentation could understand those laws, and could be used to solve problems and improve the human condition. God existed, but he basically created the universe, said "Fuck you guys," and went off to do his own thing. He left us with science as the tool for managing our universe, which was in fact, ours.

The important thing when it came to forming the country was that the government shouldn't be allowed to force you to believe certain things, or not believe certain things, which was a pretty new concept to the world, but the assumption was that everyone believed in God. If you didn't, you were probably crazy.

Religious community and conformity was important for people to survive. There were laws about religious practices in all of the colonies, outlawing certain religions from holding office, etc. Not so much earlier in Massachusetts, they were banishing people for simply discussing the idea of not baptizing infants (important note: no one would consider not baptizing... but some people thought you should be baptized as an adult, and were hated by most other people for it).

It was a damned lucky occurrence that the guys who took charge of the situation were Deists. Of course, they were Deists because they were smart, while the less capable people were running around arguing about when you should baptize someone, and if Jesus was really God.

Most importantly though, especially considering all of the religious influences that were around at the founding of the country, is Jefferson's line:
We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.

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post by splumer

Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
<Reply # 51 on 2/10/2012 8:05 PM >

It doesn't get much better than the blackest billingsgate.

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post by earthworm

Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
<Reply # 52 on 2/14/2012 10:30 AM >

Posted by splumer
It doesn't get much better than the blackest billingsgate.

no sir, no it doesn't.

No one care to respond to my idea that it's not the religion itself that causes strife but other factors that can't be measured so accurately as the speed but not position of photons? Going once, going twice....

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post by splumer

Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
<Reply # 53 on 2/15/2012 7:05 PM >

Posted by earthworm

No one care to respond to my idea that it's not the religion itself that causes strife but other factors that can't be measured so accurately as the speed but not position of photons? Going once, going twice....

Obviously religion itself isn't the cause, it's the belief in religion. Think about it: Ca. the year 1000, you ask someone what causes the tides, and they'd say God and leave it at that. Problem solved. In 2012, you ask the same question of anyone except Bill O'Reilly, and they'll answer the Moon. Religion makes us content with ignorance. When someone says that perhaps lesions on someone's brains causes those convulsions, rather than demons, that person calls into question that religious belief, starting on a slippery slope to denial of other basic religious truths. Therefore, anyone who offers ideas contrary to the doctrine must be opposed, with violence if need be.

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post by MutantMandias

Perverse and Often Baffling

Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
<Reply # 54 on 2/15/2012 7:39 PM >

Posted by splumer

... that person calls into question that religious belief, starting on a slippery slope to denial of other basic religious truths. Therefore, anyone who offers ideas contrary to the doctrine must be opposed, with violence if need be.

Of course, religion and science do not have to be opposed. There is absolutely no logical or spiritual reason for them to be opposed at all.

For the last 150 years or so, some people have been using Islam as a weapon against Muslims, in a mostly successful attempt to turn large groups of people into mindless hate machines which provides a small group with power.

This is what happened for centuries with the Catholic church, controlling the masses as a tool for the power of the elite, and it is what has been happening off and on in America since the mid 1700's.

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post by Harvestman

Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
<Reply # 55 on 2/16/2012 12:14 AM >

Posted by MutantMandias

Of course, religion and science do not have to be opposed. There is absolutely no logical or spiritual reason for them to be opposed at all.

This is where Darwinism, creation stories, and theories of evolution come in. Somehow, sometime, one decided that they couldn't tolerate the other, and it's come to this.

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post by earthworm

Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
<Reply # 56 on 2/16/2012 5:25 AM >

Posted by HarvestmanMan

This is where Darwinism, creation stories, and theories of evolution come in. Somehow, sometime, one decided that they couldn't tolerate the other, and it's come to this.

Yeah, but the church only burned folks with telescopes, not folks with microscopes.

I'm holding fast enough that it isn't belief, but ideology that shapes oppression. Funny enough, religion is molded by both, so it gets messy.

Edit: both belief and ideology, sorry, drunk.

[last edit 2/16/2012 5:37 AM by earthworm - edited 1 times]

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post by tekriter

Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
<Reply # 57 on 2/16/2012 12:49 PM >

Posted by HarvestmanMan

This is where Darwinism, creation stories, and theories of evolution come in. Somehow, sometime, one decided that they couldn't tolerate the other, and it's come to this.

It was probably an American x-tian fundy.

http://law2.umkc.e.../scopes/evolut.htm

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post by MutantMandias

Perverse and Often Baffling

Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
<Reply # 58 on 7/17/2012 4:11 AM >

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post by MutantMandias

Perverse and Often Baffling

Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
<Reply # 59 on 12/31/2012 10:10 PM >

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