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UER Mobile > Private Boards Index > Religious Discussion > 2 of 2 � For Jews and Christians: Original Sin (Viewed 736 times)

post by NotLost   |  | 
2 of 2 � For Jews and Christians: Original Sin
< on 9/2/2019 3:31 PM >

Please, for Jews and Christians only…

I would like to keep discussion within the groups defined for the convenience of continuity in communication. If someone would like to start a new thread to combine conversations, have at it – all for it.

I would be interested in hearing your opinion of this treatise toward all aspects, from structure to theology.



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post by NotLost   |  | 
Re: 2 of 2 � For Jews and Christians: Original Sin
<Reply # 1 on 9/2/2019 3:32 PM >

Is there Original Sin?

Excerpt from the Jewish Virtual Library, ‘Issues in Jewish Ethics: Judaism's Rejection of Original Sin’:
“Jews believe that man enters the world free of sin, with a soul that is pure and innocent and untainted. While there were some Jewish teachers in Talmudic times who believed that death was a punishment brought upon mankind on account of Adam's sin, the dominant view by far was that man sins because he is not a perfect being, and not, as Christianity teaches, because he is inherently sinful.”

First, it seems to me a contradiction to state “…man enters the world free of sin, with a soul that is pure…” followed by, “…he is not a perfect being”. More so though, it feels blasphemous to say that man was not a “perfect being” as man was created by God in His image and God ascribed to everything He made that “…it was very good, and he validated it completely” (Genesis 1:31 AMP). I rather submit that perfection does not necessarily preclude the ability to reject God, in fact, the ability to choose provides for a more perfect perfection (1 John 2:5). A creation with no ability to choose evil may perform perfectly in mechanistic function yet having the ability to obey and follow out of love, and choosing to do so, demonstrates perfection exemplified as it executes the intangible and most important personal attribute of God, that being love – for “…God is Love” (1 John 4:8). I think we can show the article is correct in stating man “…is not a perfect being”, but that because of ‘original sin’, not because he was created thus.

In partaking of the Tree of the Knowledge (thorough understanding) of Good and Evil (Romans 16:19), God proclaimed that in dying they would die (Genesis 2:17). Many Christians believe that Adam and Eve died first spiritually when they partook, immediately realizing the change. Being then banished from the garden they no longer had access to the Tree of Life and therefore would eventually die physically (which in truth was a mercy, otherwise they could live eternally in their sin).

I would not argue against the soul initially “…is pure and innocent and untainted”, the problem comes when that soul is birthed in a physically corrupt, spiritually dead being (Ephesians 2:1-3). For that, I do argue man is not able to reconcile himself through any amount of contrived repentance and obedience sufficient to satisfy God’s standard of perfection as originally intended (Leviticus 11:44, Psalm 14:1-3). Immediately after eating the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve demonstrated this futility after their first failed attempt to cover their own sin (works) with garments of fig leaves, for they were still ashamed and hid themselves from God. They then proceeded to blame Eve, Satan, and even God for their condition. God would have to ‘provide Himself’ a blood sacrifice on their behalf (grace) to be their temporary (Genesis 3:21, Genesis 22:8, Exodus 12:7), and ultimately permanent (John 19:30), ‘covering’.

Physical and spiritual death both then seem to be the legacy passed by Adam. A Southern Baptist Pastor shared a conversation he had with someone who likened original sin to a ‘blood disease’. Considering the corruption of all creation and inaccessibility to the tree of life, a blood disease seemed to me almost a plausible theory. I refrain from calling it a disease though, for we tend to quickly seek any reason to excuse our actions – still, Paul is clear in Romans 7 that the flesh is corrupt. Looking closer at the ramifications of spiritual death though, it seems not only do we struggle with sin as a symptom of something we have (i.e., corruption), but additionally we don’t have the capacity not to sin due to something we are lacking.

There are several different pictograms representing the trichotomy of man, but I think the spirit being centric, surrounded by the soul, and then the body, well illustrates this experience (as well as an analogy between man’s image and God’s image, that is, Yeshua as the ‘Body’ was the physical manifestation visibly present in the world, the ‘Soul’ comprising the attributes and personality ascribed to God the father, and His ‘Spirit’ or essence that works unseen in the heart of His regenerate creation). God created Adam in His image as a trichotomy, but after spiritual death we are now a dichotomy in Adam’s fallen image (Gen 5:3). So why does man fail, even religious Pharisaical types, in his attempt at godliness? A corrupt and dying container (flesh), and a dead ‘power source’ (spirit)! This problem is seen in all creation as it was made subject to similar death and corruption (Romans 8:19–23). This is expressed in science as the Second Law of Thermodynamics as entropy increases. During creation, God’s power was at work – “The Spirit of God was moving (hovering, brooding) over the face of the waters” (Genesis 1:2, AMP). The idea of brooding or ‘vibrating’ could be considered ‘as giving off energy’. After each day’s creation, we see God sustaining that creation; “…and God saw that it was good and He affirmed and sustained it” (Genesis 1:12, 18, 21, 25 AMP).

Since all creation was sustained by God’s power, we see that physical death is now inevitable for all creation, separated from God's sustaining power after Adam relinquished his authority to Satan. Yet, creation, including man, is maintained temporarily by certain source(s). There are two types of electrical current flows and I envision them represented metaphorically here. Let’s briefly consider God’s Spirit as Alternating Current, like from a wall outlet, charging the batteries of creation which provides a Direct Current. Now that God’s AC power is no longer materially sustaining, as it is (largely) unavailable due to the fall, for mankind, we are only left with DC ‘battery’ power from our body. Moreover, the DC, only providing unidirectional current flow to support itself, will also eventually drain until it is empty of all power and dies (entropy and equilibrium).

The essence of this study though, does not and should not revolve around the technical aspects of sin and death (because knowledge alone has no eternal redemptive value, nor does it provide the ability to energize a relationship without the application of that knowledge in love), but around the reunion of the heart of God and of man through the redemption of man and rebirth of his spirit. Only God living in us and through us via a regenerate spirit could again provide an incorrupt, two-way power source (2 Peter 1:3-4). Apparently, without the Tree of Life, our bodies still cannot accept His ‘recharge’ (permanently corrupted, Romans 8:3, hence the need for glorified bodies in eternity - Side Note 2), but more importantly for man’s eternal wellbeing, it does restore our relationship with God (Romans 8:10). Like AC current, His love again flows to us, and ours back to Him.

Hence, the soul of the unregenerate man only receives direct (DC) stimuli externally from the corrupted world, flesh, and Devil (Ephesians 2:1-3, Genesis 3:4-6) to feed the lust of their flesh, eyes, and pride of life (1 John 2:16, Genesis 3:4-6). It is no wonder then that even provided a “...pure and innocent and untainted” soul, sin is inevitable and probably manifested before we can even make a conscious educated decision between good or evil (Psalm 51:5). Consider a toddler’s temper tantrum. It does not make sense to say that behavior is a learned trait; what (typical) parent intentionally teaches their child to misbehave? Furthermore, look at those who were poorly taught to do right, or they simply outright rejected it, as often their selfish ‘tantrums’ continue throughout life unrepentant, only grown they now have the intellectual (knowledge of evil) and physical ability to do great harm to others to satisfy their selfish desires.

Transversely, the regenerate man, with a new living spirit internally, now has the ability – through God’s power, to allow God’s power to work through them to do good (again, 2 Peter 1:3-4). This image of salvation is expressed beautifully through Elizabeth and Mary in Luke 1:45-49, “And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord, and Mary said, ‘My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for He has looked on the humble estate of His servant. For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed; for He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name.’”. Elizabeth sensed Mary’s faith in God’s promise, and Mary felt the effects of the new life in her. Mary could do nothing less than to allow her soul to express its metamorphosis by magnifying God to the world, realizing that even after looking at her humble estate (sinful condition?), He blessed her with ‘new life’. The simple idea of ‘magnifying’ illustrates that with God’s power in our spirit we can enlarge the visibility of God to a world who has tried to make Him small.

Mankind’s only hope then, for life, for living, for love, is that we again become alive spiritually. Christians know this as being born again (John 3:3). The early prophets understood this need well (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 11:19-20, Zechariah 13:9), as did King David: “Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered” (Psalm 32:1). The difference between the manifestations of the unregenerate man and the regenerate man’s attempt at keeping the law is profound. Attempts at maintaining the Law in the flesh produces (at least) two things: a prideful attitude that we can be like God (Genesis 3:5), thus He ‘owes us’ (Job 35:7-8), and a prideful attitude that makes us better than those around us (Luke 18:11). Ironically, these are exactly the opposite behaviors of what the law truly demands of us, summed up in, “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might” (Deuteronomy 6:5), and, “Love your neighbor as yourself” (Leviticus 19:18). Yeshua HaMashiach continuously exposed this paradox demonstrated in the hypocrisy of the Pharisees (Matthew 23:27). While the born-again believer still struggles from contact with the ‘flesh’, power from the Spirit of God in them reminds them that God’s love is for them and can work in them and through them to share with those around them. If we live in the flesh, we can only behave like animals; if we live in the Spirit we can behave more like Jesus. Live in the Spirit, love Him back, and magnify Him to the world.

Side notes:
1. During this study, I’ve read that the 2nd law of thermodynamics has been reconsidered something to the effect that all things are not in a state of decay, but that the energy went elsewhere. Yet another attempt at man denying the dying condition of man and creation?
2. It would not be a point of argument, but I now believe even more that the ‘mansions’ (KJV) referred to in John 14:2 are our glorified bodies.

Excerpt from an interview with Alan Cooper:
Q: Can references to original sin be found in Jewish textual sources?
A: There are a couple places in the Talmud where it’s asked, “When did the pollution of the serpent cease?” The very phrase “pollution of the serpent” is surprising, and is probably reflective of what it would mean if Jews were to adopt a Christian premise of human nature.
Even if we agree with Christians that humankind was born in a state of grace, fell, and now requires divine salvation, where we find that salvation is very different. For Christians, it’s Christ, and for Jews, it’s Torah. The Christians tell the Jews that the law doesn’t save you, and the rabbis say that, in fact, the law is the only thing that can save you. The only antidote to the pollution of the serpent is Torah.
If I go over to the other side and accept Jesus and I’m saved, why would I keep putting on tefillin and observing Shabbat?


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post by Radio2600   |  | 
Re: 2 of 2 � For Jews and Christians: Original Sin
<Reply # 2 on 9/3/2019 5:02 AM >

Orthodox Jewish here.

There is no original sin in Judaism, but there's community sin and sin passed to subsequent generations.

This is sort of a complicated subject. I have to explain something first.

Most Orthodox Jews follow the Lithuanian tradition founded by the Gaon of Vilna. Hasidic Jews follow the tradition founded by the Baal Shem Tov. Both of the 2 strains of Orthodox Judaism look at this differently. I'm hasidic, so my beliefs reflect that.

This is going to be dreadfully over simplified.

The "soul" is referred to as the neshoma.

A person's neshoma leaves the world when they die and it reenters the world in another person in the future.

A person dies because of their sins. Their sins "tarnish" their neshoma. When a neshoma reenters the world, it has the tarnish still intact and the person receiving the neshoma has the obligation to "behave well" to remove the tarnish and not add to it. However, people do not die because of the preexisting tarnish on their neshoma.

When a completely clean neshoma enters the world, that person is called a tzadik or completely righteous person. There are on;y 30 of them in every generation. Some are visible and some are hidden, but all 30 do exist. Since the tzadik is completely righteous, they should be immortal, but they're not. A tzadik dies because of the sins of the community.

When the sins of the community become so great, G-d* takes it out on the entire community. Everyone, the good, the bad and the ugly are all subjected to the wrath of G-d. One example of this is The Flood in the Book of Genesis. Although controversial, some authorities say the Holocaust is also an example of this.

So the whole world started out clean, but the neshomas got dirty over time and some people are working to clean up the neshomas, but some people are tarnishing them worse.

In any case, no person is held to account for the prexisting tarnish on their neshoma. Their only responsibility is to clean some of it off and not add to it.

*Except in religious books, we omit the O and write either G-d or L-rd.


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post by thor89   |  | 
Re: 2 of 2 � For Jews and Christians: Original Sin
<Reply # 3 on 10/8/2019 1:29 AM >

What he's talking about by "tarnish" is more commonly interpreted as "shells" or "husks" which conceal sparks that fell from heaven at creation. It's from these sparks that ein sof (divine light) shines in this world.

This isn't Judaism as much as it is Kabbalah and Kabbalah is something people either swear by or swear at.

There are people that maintain that Kabbalah has existed since Gan Eden, but aside from 2 cryptic mentions in the Talmud, Kabbalah was largely unknown until about 800 years ago.

Every time I hear about Kabbalah, my first thought is Madonna. Oy gevalt.

L'Shana Tova + Lech L'shalom y'all.



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