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UER Mobile > US: Four Corners > Colorado instagramers (Viewed 37544 times)

post by dundertits

Re: Colorado instagramers
<Reply # 40 on 7/11/2018 7:19 PM >

seconded free blackhawk I owe the guy one !!!

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post by dundertits

Re: Colorado instagramers
<Reply # 41 on 7/11/2018 7:21 PM >

Posted by Sheavy
Free Blackhawk 2018

2nded!!

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post by Aran

Re: Colorado instagramers
<Reply # 42 on 7/11/2018 8:33 PM >

Posted by Abby Normal
Everything she said

I think you hit the nail on the head. As it stands, moderation on this site is showing itself to be too arbitrary for a healthy community. The troll mode Blackhawk is under proves that. Restrictions and penalties such as troll mode should only be handed down as punishment for breaking the TOS, which Blackhawk has not done. This decision is made all the more suspect by the fact that it has stood since February, and yet only now is it becoming public knowledge- and not a word from the current mod team either, I will note. Bans and restrictions should be publicly acknowledged in order to provide transparency between the mod team and the community, which has not happened.

So since Blackhawk has not broken the TOS as currently written, he should not be in troll mode. If the mod team wants to enforce a new set of standards, the TOS needs to be updated to reflect that. It is unfair to both Blackhawk and the community as a whole to be punished for "infractions" without being informed what constitutes an infraction. This forum cannot survive if the moderators make a habit of handing down restrictions without transparency- that is the fast track to losing the trust of the entire community.

The moderators must either publicly announce why specifically Blackhawk has been placed in troll mode, or lift the restrictions on him. Anything else is a breach of the trust invested in them.

[last edit 7/11/2018 8:33 PM by Aran - edited 2 times]

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post by DJ Craig

Moderator

Re: Colorado instagramers
<Reply # 43 on 7/11/2018 8:40 PM >

2X, I think we all wish you had expressed this to us before just quitting without explanation. None of us knew why you quit the mod team until today.

Us mods do our best, but as Abby Normal has pointed out, it's not an easy job. We try to reach consensus on decisions, but there aren't always easy answers, and we don't all agree on everything all the time.

No, we are not going to just automatically lock / delete this thread because of criticism. I'm genuinely surprised that some of you seem to think so little of us. We're not THAT bad...

There were very good reasons for how we have handled Blackhawk, and it was NOT out of a personal vendetta, or because anyone just "didn't like him".

I can't speak for the entire moderator team, and we are currently discussing amongst ourselves the best course of action here, and also monitoring this thread closely to read everyone's input. In the meantime, just know that we're here, we're listening, and we aren't evil dictators who can't handle criticism! We're just friendly, normal people who want to make this forum a success. And we do care what the community thinks.

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post by RescueMe1060

Re: Colorado instagramers
<Reply # 44 on 7/11/2018 9:04 PM >

Transparency.

That’s all we want. Especially since it seems like Av has moved on

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post by jeepdave

Re: Colorado instagramers
<Reply # 45 on 7/11/2018 11:32 PM >

I've reduced my time here basically because I'm not the "right" kind of person to he on this sub. And when politics board was killed because of feefees getting hurt, well, are we adults or children? I've never reported a user. Not once. Because if I have a issue with you I'll just fucking tell you. This place, well, I still visit from time to time but it has lost it's glow. Sad too. I loved it here.

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post by Explorer Zero

Re: Colorado instagramers
<Reply # 46 on 7/12/2018 2:07 AM >

Posted by DJ Craig
2X, I think we all wish you had expressed this to us before just quitting without explanation. None of us knew why you quit the mod team until today.

Not true. Av knows, So does Wang and Steed.

The real question is where were you when I argued against the "troll mode" I even suggested alternatives

the 2 or 3 of y'all that wanted to ban him so badly but never could point to a reason other than "he posts too much" or "thinks he knows everything"

maybe I just remember this differently than you, not once did any moderator present any credible evidence of him violating the forum rules or t.o.s.

only hate and personal attacks were offered

and don't worry I am not naming names

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post by Steed

Re: Colorado instagramers
<Reply # 47 on 7/12/2018 3:30 AM >

Posted by 2Xplorations

Not true. Av knows, So does Wang and Steed.

I actually didn't ever know why you resigned.

Regarding the TOS, I've never bothered referring to it when moderating, but I would argue Blackhawk infringed mildly on 5b.(i). There were mild complaints, usually more along the lines of "What's up with that guy?" but there were a fair number of them. Also keep in mind (viii) and (ix) which basically lets us do whatever we want.

I'm not really sure what the end result of the troll moding of Blackhawk is supposed to be, as if UER can keep going along undisturbed and he can still post to his heart's content indefinitely. Just like when we unbanned him, I wondered what amount and duration of punishment is appropriate for whatever small thing he did.

Regarding this repeating troll who keeps getting banned and coming back, we really should be doing a better job of getting rid of him. I don't consider him a proper UER member and the TOS don't protect him. So 2X calling him Mario is no violation, even if he freaks out and calls 2X a snitch. So as long as we are failing to keep him from reappearing here, the rest of you have the right to fuck with him, within reason. Maybe that would be more effective in chasing him away than repeat bannings.

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post by Radio2600

Re: Colorado instagramers
<Reply # 48 on 7/12/2018 4:02 AM >

I have no complaints about Blackhawk.

He did sorta lose it when he happened on one of my massive photo threads that wiped out his data plan for the month, but he was civil about it.

Echoing to 2X

I think its only fair to point out that this site is free, no ads, no data mining, no spamming, Av ran it as a hobby the way he see fit. I sure as Hell wont speak for him but I understand he has moved on too.

What we have here, is by far the exception on the internet. When you get a "free" service on the internet, YOU and your personal data are the product they're selling.

UER is worth keeping.

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post by stealthwraith

Re: Colorado instagramers
<Reply # 49 on 7/12/2018 4:21 AM >

I too support the freeing of Blackhawk

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post by RescueMe1060

Re: Colorado instagramers
<Reply # 50 on 7/12/2018 5:01 AM >

Mario will never really go away, I have a feeling he has other full members on here that have been helping him and leaking locations to him. Especially some of the newer PSW kids who were awarded FM after putting in very little time here. His accounts need to be flushed out, publicly displayed and then banned/closed in a timely manner.

As for Blackhawk, I think the community has overwhelmingly been in support of removing the troll-mode setting on his account, I hope the moderation team can come to a solution in a timely manner. We have yet to hear from Astro, she's the one who placed the restrictions on his account from my understanding.

Just went through my inbox of private messages from Blackhawk, he was having problem with the above named moderator back in August of 2017. If I continue to look through my backlog of messages, these problems may stem even further back.....in other words, shit has been going down for a year now!

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post by Steed

Re: Colorado instagramers
<Reply # 51 on 7/12/2018 5:46 AM >

Posted by Radio2600
I have no complaints about Blackhawk.

It wasn't long-term members complaining. Most of the complaints were from medium-term members who noticed he was posting everywhere and had a condescending tone toward people he didn't know. I found him to walk a fine line between helpful and burdensome. He wasn't violating the rules but there was a genuine concern he was discouraging people from contributing. UER doesn't get as much traffic as it used to and that was amplifying him.

I've been hesitant to support him because I suspect after he's restored, he'll fly off the handle at us and denounce the mods every chance he gets, just like he did after we unbanned him.

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post by CaptOrbit

Re: Colorado instagramers
<Reply # 52 on 7/12/2018 11:11 AM >

Posted by Steed

he'll fly off the handle at us and denounce the mods every chance he gets,

But you're being denounced right now (both in the general sense and in some cases very specifically in this thread)* and Blackhawk isn't even here, and realistically I think this is part of the problem. The failure on the part of some of the mods to understand why this is happening in the first place is at least partly the reason WHY this is happening.

You and DJ Craig and I suspect probably at least a few others have been quick to defend your position (which is perfectly understandable) but I urge you to go back and reread the thread. This time though try and take yourself out of the moderator mindset and really read what people are saying. Blackhawk isn't the cause of what you're seeing here he's just the most vocal about it. He'll call out behavior that others when they see it will grit their teeth but let it slide.

Again notice that people are angry about what's been done to Blackhawk but he's not even here. Do a lot of long-time contributing member seen the value his input even if they don't always agree with everything he says? Yes. But that's only half of it. The other half is that it seems from outward appearances the that since he has "strong opinions and a big personality" which naturally made him one of the most vocal members that the thought process was if we silence the loudest voice the rest will fall in line. Again I urge you to go back and reread everything that's been posted up to this point and I think you'll find that if you take Blackhawk completely out of the equation there is still anger left.

On a personal note so what if he scares the noobs? They should be scared. This is not a safe hobby nor is it one that should be entered into lightly. Ab

Several years ago I even had somebody who wanted to interview me because I was an FM about what a hard time new members got here and I don't even think Blackhawk was regularly posting then.

Somebody already said it but if they can't handle an FM laying some harsh truth on them from the other side of the computer screen how are they going to deal with angry vagrant, or owner, or security or the police? Personally I would rather be able to come on here and get an honest look at what I can expect out the real world of Urban exploration.

_{* note I'm not specifically denouncing you I'm just pointing out an overall tone}

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post by jeepdave

Re: Colorado instagramers
<Reply # 53 on 7/12/2018 1:20 PM >

I don't hate our mods. But they do let their bias and emotions get the best of them quite a bit. Maybe we should rotate out some different mods from time to time?

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post by Doug

Re: Colorado instagramers
<Reply # 54 on 7/12/2018 1:32 PM >

When I first heard about the misuse of Troll Mode I thought it was a joke, but with the amount of longterm members that have left, it was hardly worth debating especially with forums in general practically becoming obsolete.

My pet hate is the way some Moderators lock threads with their mightier than thou attitude. It seems childish (hey, I can't speak, I'm soon to be a 50-year-old child

I miss the idle chit chat. Bring back Blackhawk for that alone

My humble opinion is that urbex has gone nuts & grown tenfold, but 90% of explorers are just chasing locations (nothing wrong with that) but maybe the Mods should be rewarding the members that make the place a bit more diverse?

I vote for Blackhawk to be removed from Troll Mode.

By the way, I love forums. I hate seeing them die.

My uninteresting 2-Bob.

Stay well.

Doug

[last edit 7/12/2018 1:34 PM by Doug - edited 2 times]

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post by RescueMe1060

Re: Colorado instagramers
<Reply # 55 on 7/12/2018 1:33 PM >

Posted by Steed

He wasn't violating the rules

I just want everyone to see this quote.

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post by Steed

Re: Colorado instagramers
<Reply # 56 on 7/12/2018 2:32 PM >

Posted by CaptOrbit

But you're being denounced right now (both in the general sense and in some cases very specifically in this thread)* and Blackhawk isn't even here, and realistically I think this is part of the problem. The failure on the part of some of the mods to understand why this is happening in the first place is at least partly the reason WHY this is happening.

I'm not afraid of criticism. I just don't want to stick out my neck to help him and have it chopped off. You guys are free to criticise us, and so far I'd say it's been healthy for all of us.

Also, Blackhawk hasn't posted in this thread, nor has he tried to, but he is watching and talking to me elsewhere.

Posted by CaptOrbit
The other half is that it seems from outward appearances the that since he has "strong opinions and a big personality" which naturally made him one of the most vocal members that the thought process was if we silence the loudest voice the rest will fall in line.

Just the opposite. The hope was if his voice was quieter, other people's would be louder. It would probably be easy to argue that didn't work.

The complaints I've heard is that he's condescending, trying to act like a father/teacher figure and being a little unpleasant about it. It's not a newb issue but a new-to-him issue, and he does it to people regardless of age, experience, and qualification. People join the site and at some point get a comment from him that leaves a sour taste in their mouth, and then see him doing the same thing to other people. I got a taste of it in this post for instance. He isn't scaring or harassing anyone, just feeling superior to others, on a large enough scale that it slightly irked a notable number of people.

At my newspaper right now, there's one hardcore nationalist who posts a reply on every article we share on Facebook. He's very critical of anything or anyone non-Korean. My coworkers love him because he engages on a lot of articles, but they miss the fact that other people don't post as much because they don't want to interact with him. That's kind of a more extreme version of this.

You may ask if silencing such people is really a good idea. I think we have our answer now.

[last edit 7/12/2018 2:38 PM by Steed - edited 1 times]

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post by lonewolf34

Re: Colorado instagramers
<Reply # 57 on 7/12/2018 2:55 PM >

Posted by Steed

You may ask if silencing such people is really a good idea. I think we have our answer now.

To me, I'm not sure if we do. It seems to be that a good number of regular, long time, good standing posters here support him/his reinstatement.

I'm also not sure if it's fair to blame him or one person for decrease in traffic. To me, it seems the value isn't as high as it used to be (old, outdated DB, etc.) coupled with the nuisance of dealing with posters who aren't here for the right reasons/and seemingly allowed to roam free.

Just my thoughts.

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post by Steed

Re: Colorado instagramers
<Reply # 58 on 7/12/2018 3:05 PM >

Posted by lonewolf34

To me, I'm not sure if we do. It seems to be that a good number of regular, long time, good standing posters here support him/his reinstatement.

I'm also not sure if it's fair to blame him or one person for decrease in traffic. To me, it seems the value isn't as high as it used to be (old, outdated DB, etc.) coupled with the nuisance of dealing with posters who aren't here for the right reasons/and seemingly allowed to roam free.

Just my thoughts.

I think you just interpreted my words in the exact opposite way that I meant. It sounds like you also arrived at the answer I was implying.

And yeah, this site will probably continue shrinking continuously. But there have been a few cases of people saying they thought twice about posting more or just didn't like the vibe of the community because of him. Regardless of what action we take, this site will have fewer active members in a few months.

Or maybe social media will collapse and everyone will come crawling back. It could happen.

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post by jeepdave

Re: Colorado instagramers
<Reply # 59 on 7/12/2018 5:57 PM >

If these people can't handle BlackHawk how the fuck do they get through interactions with other humans daily, much less the cops or security?

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