Posted by DevilC In the same vein ... The Founders could never have imagined that freedom FROM religion would become the official state religion of the US. Our technical courts have evelated athiesm as the state religion. That was never the Founder's intent. A law just so we can say "Merry Christmas?" That is just silly ... but in our current climate? Makes sense. What's wrong with teaching folks about Western heritage and culture? Must we have a law to talk about such things? |
Posted by Esoterik Where does religion belong? In YOUR church. In YOUR home. And that is fucking all. |
Posted by Samurai because some people don't believe in the invisible friend and don't want it pushed on them. |
Posted by DevilC Sure. But like it or not, religion, religiosity, and common culture (shaped largely by xtianity) shaped the nation we live in. Western tradition was founded around Christianity. Like it or don't. |
Posted by DevilC In the same vein ... The Founders could never have imagined that freedom FROM religion would become the official state religion of the US. Our technical courts have evelated athiesm as the state religion. That was never the Founder's intent. |
A law just so we can say "Merry Christmas?" That is just silly ... but in our current climate? Makes sense. |
What's wrong with teaching folks about Western heritage and culture? Must we have a law to talk about such things? |
But like it or not, religion, religiosity, and common culture (shaped largely by xtianity) shaped the nation we live in. Western tradition was founded around Christianity. Like it or don't. |
Posted by Samurai it's 2013, sunshine... the time for organized religion has come and gone. Most people, and I may be on a limb here, don't want to be told what they have to believe and really don't want acommodate what is really an arcane way of looking at the world. |
Posted by DevilC Sure. But like it or not, religion, religiosity, and common culture (shaped largely by xtianity) shaped the nation we live in. Western tradition was founded around Christianity. Like it or don't. |
Posted by tekriter And x-tianity was either made up or stolen from other traditions, like the pagan mid-winter festivals. "The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.” ~John Adams, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” 1787-1788 “I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.” ~Thomas Jefferson, letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, 1802 “History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.” -Thomas Jefferson: in letter to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813 |
Posted by Soldat Crying because people say Merry Christmas or because a teacher hangs up a cardboard Menorah in her classroom is such a pathetic example of first world problems. Freedom of religion does certainly entail a freedom from endorsed religion, however it does not entail the suppression of religion in public. I find it very hard to claim that the simple existence of something like a Christmas tree is a school or a Nativity set in a town square is an intrusion of religion into anybody's life, especially considering the pervasive nature of such things on TV, the Internet, people's lawns, in front of churches, on billboards, etc. The majority should never be allowed to force their beliefs down the throats of the minority, but similarly the majority should not be forced to conceal their beliefs to satisfy the whims of the minority either. |
Posted by Soldat Crying because people say Merry Christmas or because a teacher hangs up a cardboard Menorah in her classroom is such a pathetic example of first world problems. Freedom of religion does certainly entail a freedom from endorsed religion, however it does not entail the suppression of religion in public. I find it very hard to claim that the simple existence of something like a Christmas tree is a school or a Nativity set in a town square is an intrusion of religion into anybody's life, especially considering the pervasive nature of such things on TV, the Internet, people's lawns, in front of churches, on billboards, etc. The majority should never be allowed to force their beliefs down the throats of the minority, but similarly the majority should not be forced to conceal their beliefs to satisfy the whims of the minority either. |
Posted by splumer The Supreme Court has kind of already spoken on this. Religious displays on public property (especially gov't buildings & the like) have been determined to be a de facto endorsement of a particular religious belief by gov't. Plus, given the pluralistic nature of our society, there's no way to adequately represent all religious beliefs (including those of non-believers) as well as no easy way to determine which beliefs are sincerely held and which are jokes (the FSM and SubGenius Churches come to mind). So the best way is to not have religious displays on public property at all. That doesn't prevent private entities from doing whatever they want on their own property. The problem I always had with nativity scenes is twofold: first, they are almost always cheesy and second, the 2nd Commandment says not to make graven images. It doesn't say "except for plastic nativity scenes." But the pervasive nature of such images makes it all the more imperative for them not to appear in publicly-owned places. I like to be able to escape that crap every once in a while. One more point: if the tables were turned, and Muslim images were displayed in public places, how would Christians feel? BTW, Soldat, weren't you banned? Welcome back! |
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