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That makes sense. Most of these places closed in the great recession, the oldest in 2009 and the most recent in April, so they haven't really been cleaned up much at all, but also haven't decayed *all* that much compared to some of what I've seen on here. The reason I was wondering was the number of full face masks left behind at Deferiet when it shut down in 09, whether those were there for a necessary reason that I should pay attention to, or if they were a cache for some disaster chemical or bureaucratic. At least asbestos is probably less of a threat in places from the 2000s, most of these buildings are essentially giant Quonset huts, built from steel framing and sheet metal walls.
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Posted by Them
That makes sense. Most of these places closed in the great recession, the oldest in 2009 and the most recent in April, so they haven't really been cleaned up much at all, but also haven't decayed *all* that much compared to some of what I've seen on here. The reason I was wondering was the number of full face masks left behind at Deferiet when it shut down in 09, whether those were there for a necessary reason that I should pay attention to, or if they were a cache for some disaster chemical or bureaucratic. At least asbestos is probably less of a threat in places from the 2000s, most of these buildings are essentially giant Quonset huts, built from steel framing and sheet metal walls.
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There may be some people on here that have more experience with industrial paper mills that could shed specific light on what they would be required for. From my science view, I consider the most dangerous substance they use there to be Chlorine dioxide. ClO2 is used as a bleaching agent for the pulp and is usually made in the facility to a gaseous state. At gas phase concentrations greater than 30% volume in air at partial pressures above 10 kPa, ClO2 may explosively decompose into chlorine and oxygen (which was probably why they had the masks to use when setting up the ClO2 tanks and such). Both the normal ClO2 gas and the decomposition products (minus the oxygen) are very dangerous to breath in. However, I would ASSUME that they dont have tanks of this stuff just laying around, though inside some of the mixing vats there could be residual gas inside which would call for the use of a full-face respirator. Though if you were to venture into a closed vat you run into other problems that a mask couldnt help with... Like the Cl gas eating away at your flesh or having the absence of oxygen entirely.
[last edit 7/16/2013 2:00 AM by Send4Help - edited 1 times]
The Durango '95 purred away a real horrowshow - a nice, warm vibraty feeling all through your guttiwuts. And soon it was trees and dark, my brothers, with real country dark. | |
I'd suggest you PM Samurai about paper mills 
Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) | |
I work in an active Kraft Process paper mill (International Paper- Ticonderoga Mill, Ticonderoga NY). Here's the thing. we don't wear respirators. Because of the toxicity and just outright nastiness of the materials we encounter, we wear full-face Scott O-Vista gas masks with attached filters.
What people don't understand is that the back end of a paper mill is nothing but a chemical plant. To start off, the wood chips have to be 'cooked' in what is called a digester. This digester uses a highly caustic material called "white liquor" mixed with steam to cook the lignin out of the wood... all you want from the wood is the fiber. Now, this white liquor is made on site in the recausticization plant (Where I work, primarily). Now think of the digester as a 187-foot tall stomach. It's 'digesting' the lignin out of the wood. Once that white liquor has done it's job, it's now 'black liquor' and gets pumped from the pulp mill to the powerhouse, primarily the evaporator assemblies and then into the recovery boiler. Recovery boiler does just what it advertises; burns the lignin and fats that were digested out of the wood and becomes a superheated smelt which is then dumped into what we call the dissolving tank.
The dissolving tank is the fun part. Smelt that is 2100+F meets water and weak wash (it's a weak caustic solution). One of the jokes over in the powerhouse is that if you don't hear booming, RUN. Anyways, once the smelt meets the dissolving tank and the agitators beat the smelt blob back into a liquid, you have green liquor. This where I come in. The green liquor gets pumped to a clarifier where the burned up crap (dregs is our term for it) gets settled out and the clarified green liquor is pumped to a two storage tanks. (the dregs gets pumped as a slurry to the dregs filter, gets dried on the drum and out the door to the shit pad it goes). From the storage tanks, the green is pumped to what we call a slaker. Ever see a kool aid pitcher? Or make kool aid? Same principle. We add the green 5gallons for each speed point on the hot lime screw to make white liquor.
Now this is where I am going to talk about hazards, because this came up during the exploration of the old Domtar (now demolished) plant in Cornwall, Ontario. In the recaust plant alone, there are a myriad of things that even in a shutdown plant that will hurt you. First off, white liquor (sodium hydroxide) is a nasty caustic and will horribly burn you. I have two holes in my fingers, one on the left middle, one on the right ring from just one piece of caustic grit. It burned all the way to the bone. Just one speck of caustic sand. If you get this, even dried and crusty, in your eyes, you will be blinded. Why? If the plant is abandoned, or shut down, there is a good chance that the eyewash stations will not work. That's only way to get this shit off of you. When it meets your skin, it's slimy... that's because it's liquifying you. Enjoy. Green liquor, although not as nasty as white, is still a caustic and will still burn you. During operations, both liquors are well over 200F and not chemically, but thermally burn.
Second thing you will encounter in a just the recaust plant is the lime dust. It's on everything. It's in the air, it's on everything you touch. It reacts with sweat and slakes on your skin. The burns in causes look like and feel similar to sunburns. Luckily, the shit washes off, but until you do get it off, it's an itchy miserable burning sensation.
And lastly, gas. When caustic (NAOH) interacts with an acid (HCl for example), they react and give hydrogen sulfide, otherwise known as H2S in the industry. In low concentrations, it smells like a bad fart, or rotten eggs. In high concentrations, it numbs the sense of smell and kills with even a small breath of it. And I mean kills... INSTANTLY. As an aside, International Paper lost 12 people in a mill in Alabama a few years ago due to an H2S leak. None of them were wearing crickets (small H2S monitors) and none of the alarms worked. Anyways, the reason that this could be an issue in a closed or abandoned mill is that even those the caustic and acid sewers are separate, due to deterioration or just plain failure over time, the mechanisms that keep them separate could fail releasing H2S for someone to walk into.
Now moving over to the pulp mill, it's an entirely different set of chemicals that will kill you. Up until the mid-90's, pulp was bleached using vaporized chlorine (blue haze in normal room temperature atmosphere). Due to environmental constraints and technological advancements, most paper mills switched to chlorine dioxide as their bleaching agent. The catch with ClO2 was that it had to be made on-site as it was too volatile to be transported. Here's why... ClO2 is hot when it comes out of the chemical reactor and has to be instantly cooled via a chilling tower before it's injected into the pulp flow at the mixers. Most bleach plants run 5 or more pulp washers... they alternate caustic-acid/ClO20-caustic-ClO2/peroxide-ClO2/acid/OBA. All these chemicals are in a tank farm (usually). To make ClO2, you need 57% hydrogen peroxide, 93% sulfuric acid, methanol, and compressed air (I had to actually text a friend of mine at work for the ingredients as I have not worked the bleach plant for 3 years). Inject, let fizz, pump off and cool. Also, these plants sometimes run liquid oxygen as well. So beware that.
What does all this have to do with abandoned mills or which mask you should use? Simply, a paper mill even abandoned was once a chemical plant. Many of these chemicals just don't go away. Now if a mill was shut down quickly, many of the safety protocols may have been ignored, tanks not drained all the way, lines not valved off, or drained. If you must go into one of these places, this is what you should wear:
Rubber boots- you could be walking through shit that will eat through your sneakers of dissolve a pair of those swanky hipster boots. Preferably knee-length
Rubber/hylite/pvc gloves- again, you're going to be touching things that have funk on them. You touch a pipe that has spent acid on it, or caustic crust or lime dust and then rub your eye, you're going to be in a world of hurt.
jeans you don't care about- for obvious reasons
long sleeved shirt or better yet, a green welders jacket.
we have to wear hardhats, but for the casual explorer, that might be overkill.
Now WHAT YOU SHOULD HAVE BEFORE ENTERING AN ABANDONED/SHUT DOWN PAPER MILL:
H2S and ClO2 cricket and a good gas mask WITH A CANISTER RATED FOR EITHER GAS. we use Scott O-Vista's where I work. Basically this:
I apologize for the overly long lesson, but this is a place that should be respected and, to be honest, feared by someone who does not work there. my colleagues and I are somewhat blase about the risks and hazards because of our experience. I should post pictures of my forearms and hands... i have a series of nasty scars from all the times I have been burned, just collecting my samples for the testing round.
If you have any other questions or comments, you can either PM me, or post them here.
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Thanks for the awesome write-up and safety info Sam
Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) | |
So yeah. Maybe this is why no one has explored Newton Falls yet. Shit.
*orders hazmat suit*
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Posted by Samurai
I work in an active Kraft Process paper mill (International Paper- Ticonderoga Mill, Ticonderoga NY)...
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Wow, sir! Thank you so much for writing that up, VERY valuable information.
The Durango '95 purred away a real horrowshow - a nice, warm vibraty feeling all through your guttiwuts. And soon it was trees and dark, my brothers, with real country dark. | |
| To make ClO2, you need 57% hydrogen peroxide, 93% sulfuric acid, methanol, and compressed air |
So, 2(H2O2) + 3(H2SO4) + CH3(OH) = ClO2 how? Is that compressed air possibly pure chlorine gas instead? To add to the rogues' gallery of chemical nasties already named?
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Posted by Them
So, 2(H2O2) + 3(H2SO4) + CH3(OH) = ClO2 how? Is that compressed air possibly pure chlorine gas instead? To add to the rogues' gallery of chemical nasties already named?
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The overall industrial reaction I found was this:
HClO3 + HCl → HClO2 + HOCl
HClO3 + HClO2 + O2 → 2 ClO2 + Cl2 + 2 H2O
Similar to what Sam put for all intensive purposes, but it looks like a mid-stage reagent to bind up the H2 to form H2O?
Anyway we are off topic 
[last edit 7/16/2013 2:17 AM by Send4Help - edited 2 times]
The Durango '95 purred away a real horrowshow - a nice, warm vibraty feeling all through your guttiwuts. And soon it was trees and dark, my brothers, with real country dark. | |
i'm not really sure of the EXACT process going on inside the reactors. that wasn't my gig. I know that we can have an issue called a 'white out' where too much peroxide is introduced in the reaction. This is bad because the gas/reaction gets out of control and can literally cause a semi-controlled explosion in the reactor bodies. This is called a 'puff' and will literally rock the entire building. Also, when the chlorate or acid filters are dirty and the flow is impeded to the reactor bodies, you get a puff as well. The downside for the bleach plant operator when this happens is that the explosion hatches on top can get stuck cock-eyed on their way back down the guide-slides. that means I'm on top of a bomb with a hammer trying to knock them back down.
if you're interested, wikipedia has a great right up on how a Kraft process mill works. really is interesting as most people have not a clue where paper comes from.
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Pardon my ignorance. So which cartridge would I use for PCB's? I'm currently using a 3m half-mask (6000) with a pink p100.
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Posted by siper
Pardon my ignorance. So which cartridge would I use for PCB's? I'm currently using a 3m half-mask (6000) with a pink p100.
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Howdy Siper, I just went and researched the answer to your question.
There's a few answers...
The REALLY SHORT ANSWER!
If your round pink filter is labeled P100 2097, you have adequate minimum protection.
The Short Answer:
Best Protection:
3M™ Organic Vapor Cartridge/Filter 60921, P100 Respiratory Protection
http://solutions.3...D0K8BC31gv%29&rt=d
(P100 WITH Organic Vapor Protection, Pink Filter Face with Black Color Label)
______________________________________________________________________________
**OR**
Intermediate Level Protection:
3M™ Particulate Filter 2097/07184(AAD), P100 Respiratory Protection, with Nuisance Level Organic Vapor Relief
http://solutions.3...D0K8BC31gv%29&rt=d
Note: The round pink filters are NOT all the same!!! This one is a round pink filter labeled with number 2097.
3M makes SEVERAL round pink filters, each with different number codes, which are meant for different applications. Just getting a "round pink filter" does NOT mean you've matched it to the proper hazard.
The Long Answer:
Your question doesn't really ask enough.
Exposure of PCB's (commonly chlorodiphenyl 42%/54%) is typically liquid above 50*F, and can be a solid/powder under 50*F, or can be found in ash/soot of incinerated materials.
PCB's exposure routes are by inhalation, skin absorption, ingestion, and/or eye contact.
So if you THINK you're going somewhere that PCB contamination may be a real problem, and you're only using a half-mask, you can still get pretty fucked up.
PCB's cause a really nasty chloracne on the skin.
Cancer Sites - [in animals: tumors of the pituitary gland & liver, leukemia]
In such an environment, NIOSH suggests a SCBA apparatus in positive pressure or pressure-demand modes.
For ESCAPE ONLY NIOSH suggest a FULL FACEPIECE respirator with an organic vapor canister having a P100 filter.
So an organic vapor P100 would be the best option for very limited exposure.
(This is not the same as a normal "P100" which is not rated for organic vapor).
So it really depends what your exposure amount is. If you're in a location with very low level respiratory exposure, yes, you could spend a lot longer there with an Organic Vapor/P100 filter; but you really don't want that shit in your eyes or on your skin either.
For additional information see the NIOSH page on PCB:
http://www.cdc.gov.../npg/npgd0126.html
My suggestion:
For about $3 to $4 more you can get a "multi-contaminant filter"
3M™ Multi Gas/Vapor Cartridge/Filter 60926, P100 Respiratory Protection
http://solutions.3...D0K8BC31gv%29&rt=d
(P100 WITH Organic Vapor Protection, WITH Acid Gas Protection. Pink Filter Face with Olive Color Label)
(Everything mentioned on this page will fit the 3M 6000 series half-mask)
Hope this helps you make a well-informed decision.
[last edit 7/23/2013 6:57 AM by Therrin - edited 1 times]
Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) | |
Posted by Therrin
Howdy Siper, I just went and researched the answer to your question.
There's a few answers...
The REALLY SHORT ANSWER!
If your round pink filter is labeled P100 2097, you have adequate minimum protection.
The Short Answer:
Best Protection:
3M™ Organic Vapor Cartridge/Filter 60921, P100 Respiratory Protection
http://multimedia....--&boundedSize=310
http://solutions.3...D0K8BC31gv%29&rt=d
(P100 WITH Organic Vapor Protection, Pink Filter Face with Black Color Label)
______________________________________________________________________________
**OR**
Intermediate Level Protection:
3M™ Particulate Filter 2097/07184(AAD), P100 Respiratory Protection, with Nuisance Level Organic Vapor Relief
http://multimedia....--&boundedSize=310
http://solutions.3...D0K8BC31gv%29&rt=d
Note: The round pink filters are NOT all the same!!! This one is a round pink filter labeled with number 2097.
3M makes SEVERAL round pink filters, each with different number codes, which are meant for different applications. Just getting a "round pink filter" does NOT mean you've matched it to the proper hazard.
The Long Answer:
Your question doesn't really ask enough.
Exposure of PCB's (commonly chlorodiphenyl 42%/54%) is typically liquid above 50*F, and can be a solid/powder under 50*F, or can be found in ash/soot of incinerated materials.
PCB's exposure routes are by inhalation, skin absorption, ingestion, and/or eye contact.
So if you THINK you're going somewhere that PCB contamination may be a real problem, and you're only using a half-mask, you can still get pretty fucked up.
PCB's cause a really nasty chloracne on the skin.
Cancer Sites - [in animals: tumors of the pituitary gland & liver, leukemia]
In such an environment, NIOSH suggests a SCBA apparatus in positive pressure or pressure-demand modes.
For ESCAPE ONLY NIOSH suggest a FULL FACEPIECE respirator with an organic vapor canister having a P100 filter.
So an organic vapor P100 would be the best option for very limited exposure.
(This is not the same as a normal "P100" which is not rated for organic vapor).
So it really depends what your exposure amount is. If you're in a location with very low level respiratory exposure, yes, you could spend a lot longer there with an Organic Vapor/P100 filter; but you really don't want that shit in your eyes or on your skin either.
For additional information see the NIOSH page on PCB:
http://www.cdc.gov.../npg/npgd0126.html
My suggestion:
For about $3 to $4 more you can get a "multi-contaminant filter"
3M™ Multi Gas/Vapor Cartridge/Filter 60926, P100 Respiratory Protection
http://multimedia....--&boundedSize=310
http://solutions.3...D0K8BC31gv%29&rt=d
(P100 WITH Organic Vapor Protection, WITH Acid Gas Protection. Pink Filter Face with Olive Color Label)
(Everything mentioned on this page will fit the 3M 6000 series half-mask)
Hope this helps you make a well-informed decision.
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You, sir, are an incredible man. Thanks!
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Posted by siper
You, sir, are an incredible man. Thanks!
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I enjoy attention to detail. You're very welcome.
Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) | |
Thanks Therrin for all the info on the different filters. I went with your advised 60921 for the added organic.
Then I had to be "that guy" since I had some time on my hands, and masked off the inflow and painted the pink flat black.
May use my vinyl cutter to add a logo or something to the front.
Flickr Pitchrs | |
Posted by skatchkins
Thanks Therrin for all the info on the different filters. I went with your advised 60921 for the added organic.
Then I had to be "that guy" since I had some time on my hands, and masked off the inflow and painted the pink flat black.
http://distilleryi...22000ae904e2_6.jpg
May use my vinyl cutter to add a logo or something to the front.
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And go shirtless for good measure right?
When Caught Always, Always Use the Jim trick. | |
Posted by skatchkins
Thanks Therrin for all the info on the different filters. I went with your advised 60921 for the added organic.
Then I had to be "that guy" since I had some time on my hands, and masked off the inflow and painted the pink flat black.
http://distilleryi...22000ae904e2_6.jpg
May use my vinyl cutter to add a logo or something to the front.
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I never thought of doing that, but it does cut down on the pinkness of the whole thing.
Something BioHazard-esque would be a nice touch for a logo. haha.
You should put this up over on the Abandoned Nudes thread that I keep putting my nude ass-shots in-mines pics in.
Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) | |
Posted by Therrin
I never thought of doing that, but it does cut down on the pinkness of the whole thing.
Something BioHazard-esque would be a nice touch for a logo. haha.
You should put this up over on the Abandoned Nudes thread that I keep putting my nude ass-shots in-mines pics in.
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Ha!
Yeah I was thinking default would be the bioH for now.
Posted by Ricky_from_TV
And go shirtless for good measure right?
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Maybe I was pooping. Plus the new wife's family keeps trying to be friends with me on FB, so it's good to take and post a picture like this on there every once in a while to deter them. Stories of razor wire around their kids work too.
[last edit 8/13/2013 6:38 PM by skatchkins - edited 1 times]
Flickr Pitchrs | |
I've done asbestos removal. Fully bunny suits and respirators. We test with the filters ON because you can also screw them on slightly off kilter and let air in.
Also a tent/smoke test. most asbestos is best just left as is or encapsulated. Of course you can't always do this. (ie renovations or tear downs)
if there's enough asbestos to be floating around and breathe in, there's enough floating around that it will be on your clothes and everything else when you leave
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How does one know what size to buy? I found a good deal on a 3m 6100 which is small how does a person know?
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