Posted by Avatar-X I've really only seen the "this is av's site" posts in threads where the opponents are trying to force me to do something. I've never seen it in threads with well-reasoned constructive arguments that make their point clearly and provide a good alternate or suggested solution. -av

It popped up in this one, though not as bad as a lot of threads I've seen, and I don't think this was a particularly uncivilized thread.

Also, I'd like to just say that my irritation is not directed at you. It's just seeing this happen in a site policy thread for the billionth time is incredibly aggravating, but having it happen in one that I actually care enough to participate in just makes it ten times worse.

I have my strong issues with it, but I like UER. I think it serves a purpose in the community. I even (gasp!) like the LDB. Guess what? I even like the GODDAMN STARS. I'm just saying, if I didn't care at all, I wouldn't get irritated when people come in and interfere with what was an otherwise productive discussion.

I think you just need to learn to ignore posts that you see as off-topic.

The "this is av's site" argument gets repeated a lot because a large number of people don't seem to "get it".

For example: When all of the former mods left a few months ago, the cause of the problem can essentially be distilled down to one root: They wanted things one way, and I disagreed.

Of course, there was tons of arguing and discussion but in the end, it really does come down to me to make the final decision. The mods couldn't accept this, and left, and a lot of other people might also not be able to accept it.

This is why it keeps getting posted -- everyone should be well aware of the fact, and anyone who has a problem with it should leave before their problem becomes everyone's problem.

-av

Amen.

Posted by Avatar-X See, comments like this are not constructive, and are likely to result in your post being deleted or you being banned. Calling all members of UER "babies" is immature and doesn't help anything.

Jesus. Not EVERYTHING has to be "constructive." People should be allowed to state an opinion without having to sugarcoat things with some half-assed solution. If there are complainers out there then there are usually other people who are perfectly willing to come up with a solution for them. Actually listening to what people have to say, as a group, is the first step in working around a problem. This is why the removal of the "Site Concerns" forum was a *bad* move. You got rid of it because a few people were busy pointing out the problems with the LDB. You did it before other people ever had the chance to come up with any sort of a compromise and now we're forced to come to you individually, in private, to discuss our ideas or concerns to do with ANYTHING. That doesn't exactly strike me as being the most solid arrangement. Fixing a problem sometimes requires a frank and open discussion-- regardless of whether or not it involves constructive criticism. That's called venting. Sometimes it leads to good things.

I also think that latitude/longitude coordinates are total OVERKILL. It's been my impression, though, that you are the type of explorer who relies *heavily* on the legwork of others. Unless you've been doing some serious hoarding, I don't believe you've come up with much on your own in the past couple of years, have you? This isn't meant as an insult, just more of a general observation. It's one I mention because I think it explains why you're not willing to remove such precise details from the LDB. Like you said, exploration has always been about the location itself and "and not about trying to find it in an urban wasteland." I take it you don't enjoy having to work to find things yourself. Fair enough. I think you have to be a bit more flexible with this, though. Realize that for a lot of people here (and certainly for many who have already left) it introduces an element that seems to run contrary to the very spirit of urban exploration. Really, removing the exact coordinates just seems like a perfect compromise to me.

Posted by Avatar-X I am frequently wrong, and have admitted to it many times. For example: Recently, I was wrong to announce an elections process before I had fully though it through, and upon polling the membership I realized that elections were not the best way to go.

Tell me why you were wrong to initiate the elections?

A lot of people (hell even the majority) of people voted against it [in an unfair poll where nothing was properly explained, but never mind about that], true but why does that mean you have to take that as read and enact it as policy?

Right now, if the UK held a referendum on it - we would be executing people in the streets again! Probably for murder at first, then the people would vote in rape and then it wouldn't end until everyone running a red-light was put to death.

My point?? The 'Great British Public' are fucking dense.

Now, when you have a lumbering juggernaut like UER, chock full of kids, armchair explorers and self confessed goat fingerers - is a rushed through and badly explained global poll the BEST way of moving forward with anything??

I really don't think so.

So, why not show a bit of -=LEADERSHIP=- and do what is right for the community, regardless of all the bullshit, back biting and PM sodomy that's rife just now.

It's been pointed out before (in this thread) but Ninj. was your voice of reason... Well, you won't hear from him now, but maybe some of us, as a group might just be able to help instead?? Maybe not one of us has his unique knack for being right and knowing what to do... But a team of us, well we can at least help, right!?

Enact a parliament. Consult someone. Fuck it, form a steering group.

Damn, don't do any of those things but even just LISTEN TO PEOPLE WHO MIGHT KNOW AS WELL AS / BETTER THAN YOU!

I dare you!

Chris...

PS: And damn, please someone send food and fresh water for blackhawk I think he's got stuck up there!

Posted by micro Jesus. Not EVERYTHING has to be "constructive." ...

Yes, but there is still a difference between civility and insult. The Plytheman comment that I highlighted above is not constructive nor is it civil, nor does it specifically point out any problem besides the fact that he thinks all UER members are "babies". This is not helpful in ANY way.

It's been my impression, though, that you are the type of explorer who relies *heavily* on the legwork of others.

I'm somewhat miffed that you would make such a comment.

Granted, I don't do as much "hunting" as someone like fedge, who posts a new abandoned house or barn practically every week, but I've found my share of new places and have shared them with the community. I hate having to do this, but here are a few:

- I helped bring Hearn to the attention of the Toronto community -- the first time I went in 2003, there was no evidence of any explorers at all (nor could I find any info online, except for a brief article in infiltration from some 5 years previous). Now, many explorers have been inside and have signed their names in chalk on the chalkboard or by writing in the dust with their fingers.

- I introduced the hearn stack to some friends, and they climbed it -- shortly thereafter I also climbed it and shared the experience with the site.

- Found a fun hunting cabin in Algonquin last weekend, posted that on UER.

- First to post about an abandoned house in Flamborough

- nvr2loud & his friends & I went to Toronto Power Company and were the first to post about it online

- nvr2loud & his friends & I also were the first to explore and post about the Port McNicoll Grain Elevator

- I found Linseed Oils on my own and posted about it -- years later, others got in to take photos

- I found Central Prison and explored it and shared it online

- Last year, a friend and I ducked deeper into the Roundhouse during doors open and took some unauthorized photos. Those are shared online too.

- It was a group that I was with that first roofed the Delta Chelsea hotel.

- Also, another group that I was part of explored the MaRS center for the first time.

- A friend & I spotted the Molson Brewery on Fleet and were first to explore it.

I've found a ton more places that turned out to be unexplorable, locked, or otherwise inaccessible and I didn't bother posting them.

I'm not as active in finding brand-new places as I'd like to be, because I work full-time and spend a lot of my spare time dealing with crap like this on UER.

So, please don't tell me I only explore on other people's work. I may not contribute as much in terms of "new places" as others, but I like to think that I make up for it by providing this resource.

Really, removing the exact coordinates just seems like a perfect compromise to me.

The co-ordinates are there only if the creator of the location chooses to supply them. Simply removing them for all locations would really serve no purpose -- does anyone really care if a location like City Hall is pinpointed?

Just a few things to note, turbo:

First you say that the general public is too stupid to vote on things, and then you say they should be voting for their government. You can't have it both ways.

Contrary to popular belief, the poll was planned about 4 days in advance, and I asked for input from the community and added questions that they wanted, as well as reworded questions that they thought were unclear.

It's easy to blame the question when the poll doesn't show what you want, but those questions were clear and concise.


-av

Posted by turbozutek Tell me why you were wrong to initiate the elections? A lot of people (hell even the majority) of people voted against it [in an unfair poll where nothing was properly explained, but never mind about that], true but why does that mean you have to take that as read and enact it as policy? Right now, if the UK held a referendum on it - we would be executing people in the streets again! Probably for murder at first, then the people would vote in rape and then it wouldn't end until everyone running a red-light was put to death. My point?? The 'Great British Public' are fucking dense. Now, when you have a lumbering juggernaut like UER, chock full of kids, armchair explorers and self confessed goat fingerers - is a rushed through and badly explained global poll the BEST way of moving forward with anything?? I really don't think so. So, why not show a bit of -=LEADERSHIP=- and do what is right for the community, regardless of all the bullshit, back biting and PM sodomy that's rife just now. It's been pointed out before (in this thread) but Ninj. was your voice of reason... Well, you won't hear from him now, but maybe some of us, as a group might just be able to help instead?? Maybe not one of us has his unique knack for being right and knowing what to do... But a team of us, well we can at least help, right!? Enact a parliament. Consult someone. Fuck it, form a steering group. Damn, don't do any of those things but even just LISTEN TO PEOPLE WHO MIGHT KNOW AS WELL AS / BETTER THAN YOU! I dare you! Chris... PS: And damn, please someone send food and fresh water for blackhawk I think he's got stuck up there!

No I'm stuck here working hard for my customers. I've had ones that gave me shit, they are gone. I only do work for people I personally like, company policy.

If Av likes a suggestion, is given it in a reasonable fashion, I suspect if he likes it and it's doable, he might do it.

It's good to be the king, but there are stiff dues to be payed in advance, and no guarantees.

I'm going home guys, you all have a good weekend, I'm going to head out for some Dim Sum in the morning, and then to one of my favorite places. Cheers. N.

Posted by Avatar-X I'm somewhat miffed that you would make such a comment.

Say what you will. It's all fine and well that you might have done these things in the past, but during the past two years I've been on this site, you seem to have lost some of the energy you once had. Again, there's nothing wrong with this. Like you said, you're a busy guy. I just don't feel as though this should be the reason why you're refusing to remove the coordinate details.

I hate having to do this, but here are a few:

That really wasn't necessary at all. I wasn't asking for a resume or calling you out as a non-explorer. I know and appreciate the things you've come up with and have explored in the past. I'm just trying to get you to look at things from another perspective because there are some of us who don't agree with your position that the finding of places (even ones that have already been explored) is not a valuable part of urban exploration.

purpose -- does anyone really care if a location like City Hall is pinpointed?

I think you and I both know that the issue isn't with places like City Hall.

Posted by Avatar-X Just a few things to note, turbo: First you say that the general public is too stupid to vote on things, and then you say they should be voting for their government. You can't have it both ways.

That's not what I said at all. I was making an observation about 'group mentality'. Are British People stupid generally?? No, they are by and large a well educated group.

Put them together in the spur of the moment, shine a light in their face and ask them to vote on something they have never considered before RIGHT NOW??

The become retards. They make bad decisions.

-=Group Mentality=-

If you thought my post was somehow making a statement about the intelligence of the average UER'r then you are way off.

Also, I didn't ask for anyone to vote on anything; I stated that you should maybe have had the foresite to enact some kind of steering group or government before all this bullshit (and I'm sure we haven't even seen the start of it, really) occurred.

Posted by Avatar-X Contrary to popular belief, the poll was planned about 4 days in advance, and I asked for input from the community and added questions that they wanted, as well as reworded questions that they thought were unclear.

That's odd, because I just noticed it one day, hovering on my screen - which made me wonder 'WTF is that thing??' and given that I was on the committee to form a government: Well, I was more in the loop than Joe Public who logs into UER once a week would have EVER been!

Posted by Avatar-X It's easy to blame the question when the poll doesn't show what you want, but those questions were clear and concise. -av

Not really:

"Would you like a government YES or NO" doesn't tell me shit.
"Would you rather the Mods took over YES or NO" tells me even less.

It could mean anything.

Besides which, this is all a bit of a fallacy - since people voted overwhelmingly to have the mods totally in power.. but... oh... ah... that didn't work... for some reason!?


Chris...

Posted by blackhawk No I'm stuck here working hard for my customers. I've had ones that gave me shit, they are gone. I only do work for people I personally like, company policy.

Running a Company and running a Community are very different things.

Chris...

I wasn't going to say anymore, but Emily is me for those who didn't get it. I tried giving advice and some constructive ideas, but they were shot down to that administrator. Know why?

Posted by White Rabbit So, on behalf of everyone who has had to hear you guys say, "This is Av's site! He can do what he wants!" for the millionth time, let me just say: Shut up the fuck up. Seriously. Everyone knows that, and no one's claiming any different. Just because some of us have disagreements with site policy or think certain changes would make things better around here, DOES NOT MEAN we're making demands on him. It doesn't mean we're disrespecting him. It JUST means we have an opinion on the site.

I had opinions but they were shot down because it was "his site and he could do whatever he wanted". So don't turn around and tell people not to say that when you got mad at me for giving opinions and telling me "It's my site, I'll do what I want".

*NOTE: This is what I see, so it may not be 100% on the dot* What I see as the main problem is that people are pissed that seasoned explorers are banned. Banned because they were being assholes and/or asked to be banned. And now everyone is calling for them to return and for their wishes to be granted.
I think everyone just needs to calm down, quit making demands and politely offer their opinions for change

I'm sure Av was out of line for something, we all have been. What it is I'm not quite sure. Someone mentioned getting a small group to mediate for Av. Isn't that what mods are for? If someone has a problem, take it to a mod and it can be brought to Av's attention. If you have a problem with Av directly, pm him. From what I've seen, he's been very reasonable and patient with those who have not been.

I know exactly how hard it is to leave a site that you put a lot of effort into maintaining friendships and the flow of information between old and new people. My suggestion is that if someone has an opinion on something that needs to change, talk to a Mod. Then the mods gets all these ideas and talk with Av and they can come to an agreement. If necessary have a poll going and let everyone decide, IF it will affect 90% of the population that "doesn't have a problem". Yes it is Av's site, and he's trying his damndest to please everyone and I'm sure he could use some sane help.

I don't know what started all this hullabaloo at first, but damn.

Posted by turbozutek Running a Company and running a Community are very different things. Chris...

same-same. If your not really good you fail. It's easy to poke fun ,and holes at something, it's exponentially harder to build a working organization and run it. If you are really trying to help the first thing to do is not to undermine the leadership. If you had an idea, PMed it to Av, done deal. If you want it done your way, get your own gig.

That's what I did, but when I'm here it's Av's show; that's called respect. Try learning the concept sometime.

Posted by Avatar-X and spamming the threads full of photos of me and other people. None of these photos are public -- they were obtained through private channels, and it's disgusting that these people don't respect my and other people's privacy. -av

So when are you going to take down the photos and locations of mine that I requested deleted over a year ago? I don't want them in the LDB.

Posted by abandonedsc So when are you going to take down the photos and locations of mine that I requested deleted over a year ago? I don't want them in the LDB.

Pm a mod they should do it pretty quick for you, I have deleted a few in the past. Its that simple, or do it yourself.

Jesus guys.

We were actually covering some ground here, I see a flame war starting up now.

Running a Company and running a Community are very different things

All I hear from that is truth, nothing else

that's called respect. Try learning the concept sometime.

What exactly did you hope to gain by making that statement? You know how turbozutek communicates, he is blunt and does not sugar cote things(this is why I have so much respect for him) and there is no way that he was fishing for a response like that from you.



shouldn't we try to keep this civil so we can actually accomplish something, no?

Posted by maypost shouldn't we try to keep this civil so we can actually accomplish something, no?

The only way we're going to accomplish something is if we all agree to disagree then go out and get pissed.

Posted by maypost Jesus guys. We were actually covering some ground here, I see a flame war starting up now. All I hear from that is truth, nothing else What exactly did you hope to gain by making that statement? You know how turbozutek communicates, he is blunt and does not sugar cote things(this is why I have so much respect for him) and there is no way that he was fishing for a response like that from you. shouldn't we try to keep this civil so we can actually accomplish something, no?

PS: And damn, please someone send food and fresh water for blackhawk I think he's got stuck up there!

That's not civil, it's a cheap shot. Yes he is fishing, but he may not like what he's caught.

For all of you who say it is Av's site you are not 100% right, He may own the site, but he does not, and can not, control 100% of it. I have a quote for you:

I get so sick of everyone and their "It's his site, he can do as he pleases" Excuse me, as I said before, I run other communities online, I came to realize VERY fast that it is NEVER "MY" site, it belongs to everyone who visits, everyone who adds to it, and I just make sure it's there and add as I please too. But without those who add to it and are there, it would NEVER be there! - Porcelain Princess