I'd just like to point out that this is Av's site and he can do what he wants.

There, I hope we all found the 12th iteration of that basic obviate useful!

It's been fun hearing the same shit from the same people about how it's Av's site over and over again, weve had a blast watching grown men perv over a 14 year old girl, raw fun slagging off once respected members of this board who are not here to defend themselves... But all good things must end, right?

This thread is surely an all time classic from the Ultimate Entertainment Resource!!

Now that every problem this site has is fixed by me posting this - and all rifts healed, I hope we can lock this thread and continue the awesome UE'fest that UER represents.

Personally, for one, I'm going to head off and post some threads about flashlights in UE Main and getting naked in Other!! UE ROCK!

Chris...

J'ever notice, and this is an average, global trend over dozens of similar threads, that...


People who want change and voice their dissention:

1. Have been members here over a year.
2. Often have been or are moderators/webmasters/etc elsewhere.
3. Have contributed tons of help and knowledge in the past.
4. Have explored a ton of locations. Many of them being risky,
amazing and difficult.


People who are blissful with the current status-quo:

1. Are more recent registrations.
2. Don't much participate elsewhere let alone run any service or site.
3. Offer little more than banter on the stage to capture attention.
4. Have explored small vacant houses, unused roads or
cement foundations, if anything at all.


Again, there are exceptions but this has been what I've noticed over time. Thought it was worth mentioning. If there was to be any change in the overall mission and direction of this place, I'd want the ideals to initiate from category one, personally. But the simple fact is that it all lies in one set of hands and it's pretty clear that no matter how many people throw themselves into the fiery pit, it will be in vain. I'd say 5% want change, 5% don't and 90% of this place just doesn't even want to get involved, like most of the internet. They will post questions, PM each other, upload pictures and bicker until the day http://www.uer.ca returns a "404 - Page not Found" error.

I'd love to see a shakedown and restructure, but it's not my website and so I'll continue to use it the way it is but be selective of what content I post and assume I am walking amongst taggers, looters, property owners, children and armchair explorers, because this is not an assumption, it is most definitely a fact.

Posted by yaggy it is most definitely a fact.

It is most definitely not.

-av

Posted by yaggy People who want change and voice their dissention: ... People who are blissful with the current status-quo: ...

Like you said, 90% of the people don't care. These are the people who I am aiming the site for.

There are many excellent explorers here on this site, and most of them just don't bother posting in these political threads at all. Those that do, often can do so without resorting to insults or without pushing their opinion on someone.

To bring up Ninj again -- One of his strengths was that when he posed a suggestion or gave his opinion on how something should be done, he posted just that. His opinion.

"Here is how I think it should be done" he would say. He did not say "You should do it this way" or "I'm leaving if it's not done my way".

Posting your opinion without trying to force people into it is the best way to make sure people listen to you.

-av

Posted by Avatar-X It is most definitely not. -av

Oh fuck off (sorry)... But fuck off!!

There statistically MUST be taggers, looters and arm-chair explorers here on UER.CA. I know for a FACT that there are several property owners here too and I'm also pretty sure that there is a very prominent security company in the UK sitting right here watching it all happen.

If not?? Av - point me to the mass of evidence you no doubt have to refute this? One word 'no' answers don't fill us with confidence or prompt us to change our collective mind any!

When you have a screen door guarding your submarine (level 3) then of course some water is going to get in. This is why I thought L3 was a stupid idea to begin with - because it wouldn't work and hey hey!! it doesn't!

Yaggy makes some excellent points about UER as a whole... You can claim 'arbitrary explorer scale' all you want Av, but it's clear there are actual explorers and there are 'claimed' explorers here. And look who's shouting loudest that everything is fine?

Yes; fourteen year olds, a pervert with a mustache and a couple of people who have been members for less than a year and who 90% of the 'old school' explorers have never even fucking heard of.

This shit no longer makes any sense.

Chris...

The "screen door" Level 3 system is no different than, say, Deggi5, where you must know someone in order to get in.

It prevents (a) the general public and (b) people we don't know enough about yet from having full access to all information.

Obviously, nothing is 100% secure, and you should take this into account when you post things on any internet site. This is one of the reasons why UER disallows ANY posting of entrance details (like "go around the back, there's a hole in the fence") even among full members.

-av

Posted by turbozutek Oh fuck off (sorry)... But fuck off!!

It was nice knowing you Turbo.. though I hope I'm wrong.

Posted by turbozutek There statistically MUST be taggers, looters and arm-chair explorers here on UER.CA.

Well of course there are, Av. I mean, honestly.

Not to speak ill off current members, but dev is an admitted looter/trasher/et al. There are more than a few who have openly admitted to being armchair explorers, for one reason or another. And, of course, it is foolish to believe that there are not property owners/security/police agents on this board.

I'm all for civil debate.. but Civil Denial serves no purpose.

TMiB

Posted by Avatar-X The "screen door" Level 3 system is no different than, say, Deggi5, where you must know someone in order to get in. -av

What?!?

Ok, I'm going to hire a baby-sitter for tonight, shall I get someone who's posts I've reviewed - or whom I've actually met?

I know both systems have their flaws, damn, don't get me wrong - but I think that L3 is the most flawed. I also think the idea 'meh, it's Level3, it's all good' could be REALLY dangerous for those explorers who maybe have not been around long enough to know any better.

Just remember kids, L3 or not, everything you post here is as good as public.

Anyways, this is getting off topic - the only reason I mention Level-3 is because it's a flaw that needs addressed - but every time it (or it's like) is discussed? People get banned, a few hard-core n00b idiots post 'meh, it's Av's site, etc etc' and fuck all gets done.

THIS is the real problem. Everyone can respect a decision that was reached through research, co-operation and intelligent discussion.

We are having a hard time respecting decisions lately.

Chris...

Posted by Avatar-X It is most definitely not. -av

Wait, now that's just denial.

Taggers: If I see users here spraypaint walls with my own eyes, are they not a tagger?

Looters: If I see users here who have gone into locations to recover valuabe materials, tools and equipment with my own eyes, are they not looters?

Prop Owners: If I see users here who are either in charge of security for a property or are the actual deed-holders, are they not property owners?

Children: C'mon, you know what I mean on this one.

Armchair: Now this one you can't even begin to debate. Also includes fakers who copy images or fabricate information.


And I mean this in the plural sense, not isolated cases.
What's worse, this can only be the tip of the iceberg since I
don't make it a habit to know many taggers, looters or owners,
so I can only assume there are many more,
beyond those I've met and beyond my local area.
They are often not very vocal,
so it is easy to let them slip through the cracks,
the way things are.

But why am I even spinning my wheels on this? It's clear this type of debate will continue to be stonewalled. I've said my two bits, like many before me. It will soon be lost in the void.

I'd like to keep this thread going, because unlike most of the other threads, things have been mostly civil here.

For some reason, some of the people who have been banned (Mike Dijital, Seicer) keep coming back to spam the board and site. If you are so anti-UER, why do you keep coming back? Surely your respective sites are better for you.

yaggy/man in black -- Of course you are right. There will always be all of those people, no matter how stringent you make the membership requirements or how exclusive the club becomes. You just have to take it into account when you post stuff.

Just remember kids, L3 or not, everything you post here is as good as public.

In the same way that an item placed behind a locked door is "Safe". 99% of people will ignore the door, or will try the door and find it locked. The remaining 1% will break down the door, or pick the lock, to retrieve the item.

My point is: The Level 3 system brings the content on UER to an acceptable level of "safe". It's never 100% safe, but it's safer than without it.

-av

Hmmm. lots of good points on both sides. So I guess I'll chime in and piss some people off.

Having a web presence doesn't make you a real explorer. I know a 70 year old man who has been in over 1,000 mines, and he doesn't know how to turn a computer on. Running a website doesn't say anything about who you are as an explorer.

Yes there are kids on this site. ALL of us were kids once, and now we're grown up. During the recent temporary shift of power to the Mods, one of the mods asked if I would make a point of trying to help the noobs when they seem to be floundering. "Absolutely" was my reply, and I've tried to do just that. IF we would take a little time and pay a little attention, some of these folks will turn out to be the real deal. If we ignore them and flame them, they will turn out to be arrogant little pricks without a clue about what exploring is about.

Time on UER means less than nothing. I really like this site, and I'm pleased to be a member, but how long you've been a member of UER is so irrelevant as to defy any rational explanation of why it even came up. There are plenty of people out there exploring who would put anyone on this board to shame, and they aren't UER members.

I'm troubled by the recent rash of bannings as much as any of you. I've seen some people whose company I really enjoyed leave, but I've also seen some people get banned that deserved no more than a major ass kicking. The taggers, vandals, scrappers and the like is an issue that I don't know how to solve. I only post locations here that I think are both safe to go and see, and safe from damage that someone might inflict on them. There is no method of completely securing anything. I have a buddy who is an undercover narc, and if you spent any time with him, you would welcome him to UER with open arms, not realizing that you had invited the wolf into your home.

This is a complex situation. UER has been around for years, and seems to have been in a constant state of change. That is likely to continue, but there is simply no need for the open hostility I'm seeing. If we're all so passionate about the subject, then we ought to all be willing to work together to make it work.

Feel free to trash me now.

Jonsered is the perfect example of how to discuss concerns without pissing people off. I've disagreed with him a number of times, but I still listen to his voice and respect his opinions. Him being a right-winger has never had any bearing on my perception of his character

if you run out of logic just go on the personal attack why thats brilliant

I really thought you guys could do better than that.

In other words if you dont agree with all the whiners, youre just a 14yr old or someone that nobody has ever heard of, or cares what you think since obviously you dont have a right to speak, youve never explored anything except a road or foundation and now you have to shut the fuck up? thats just brilliant!

I have a concrete foundation I think I'll add to the DB now. You guys go ahead and beat the dead horse a while if it makes you feel good.

Av, there's no way you can compare the Level system to Deggi. UER has almost 43 times the user base of D5. Thats why on Deggi we know that we can speak freely about places we've been, because we know everyone on there is trust worthy. UER, on the other hand, is like Community College; anyone can get in. But hey, keep up on all these bannings and you could close the user difference pretty quickly, I'm sure.

Did you ever think that the reason there's a new thread on shutting down the LDB every week is because its a problem that needs to be addressed? Well, that is back in the day when there was a forum open to talk about site concerns, before dissent was outlawed on UER. So why keep coming to UER if we dont like it? Because unlike banning people who say things you dont want to hear, just ignoring a problem wont make it go away. What happens on UER and gets said on UER can do a lot to affect UE for every one, even people who have no idea what UER is.

Your biggest problem Av, and subsequentially the site's biggest problem, is that you can never be wrong. Never. Rather then take a good look at your mistakes on this site (which is fine, everyone makes mistakes) you just find new ways to defend what you've done and ban anyone who confronts you on it. None of us needed this thread to know you were back, you never left! Even when you said you were giving power over to your moderating team the last thing you do before stepping down is trash a whole forum filled with meaningful discussion on where to take UER. Rather than see any changes come to your forum that were out of your control, you first wipe out all our talks on changes and then you continue to lock, delete, and ban from your position of 'retirement'.

UER is just like a travel guide to UE. The LDB now has Lat and Long points for locations for christ's sake. It doesn't get much easier than that, does it? Isn't the point of UE to find locations and explore unknown territory? Being able to just look up a town and have all the coordinates of all the abandonment s right there kinda takes away from the challenge a bit, dont you think?

Whatever, if you want to run this place like this then go ahead, have fun ring leading the biggest baby-sitting site on the net.

Posted by Avatar-X If you are so anti-UER, why do you keep coming back? Surely your respective sites are better for you. -av

i was wondering that too, if it is as bad as some say, then why keep coming back?

Posted by Jonsered Having a web presence doesn't make you a real explorer. I know a 70 year old man who has been in over 1,000 mines, and he doesn't know how to turn a computer on. Running a website doesn't say anything about who you are as an explorer.

However, being a real, long time explorer *does* make someone an asset to a board such as UER. Therein lies the issue.

Yes, Av's board, we all agree. We should also realize that the long timers that were banned (some for very specific reasons, some for.. less than specific reasons) were truly instrumental to the success of this site. A good example.. at the bottom of every page on UER is a Graphical Design kudo to Crossfire.

As others have stated - these long timers as so passionate in their opinions about UER *because* of the fact that they've invested so much of their time here. Just like Av.. they feel like it's kind of their baby too.

As for L3.. yes, of course some people will be deceptive and slip through the cracks. What I would love to know is this: why are people that have openly admitted to being vandals still allowed to hold L3 access? I mean, I can even see the point to how Seicer used to talk about trying to save historical documents from a site.. but openly bragging about vandalizing/damaging a site should equate to an instant kick back to Basic.

I'm not trying to make this an ethics thread, please understand. But if the stated purpose of the L3 system is to protect the sites, then it should be used that way.

Posted by Jonsered Feel free to trash me now.

Not at all. Thank you for a well thought out post.


TMiB

Posted by White Rabbit Oh for God's sake, was ANYONE in here screaming bloody murder at Av? Don't bother answering, because no one was. This was one of the most civil policy debates I've ever seen on UER, yet you guys still come in here saying, "This is Av's site!" Like we don't know that, and like we're making demands on him. If you want to debate why you think UER doesn't need any change, debate it. But don't come into a civil thread where NO ONE was making demands and accuse everyone of something they OBVIOUSLY weren't doing. That's nothing more than a juvenile attempt to stop a debate that you don't agree with. And you guys do it because it works half the time.

"Here" is this website not this particular thread. I apologise everyone if I created confusion by misstating myself. I respect what most had to say here even if I'm not in total agreement with them. One or two of them I sent a PM, and didn't say it in open public forum. They showed respect, and I responded in kind. Is sending a PM rather then saying it openly a good enough effort to not break the thread, or a respected member's face?

Your the one I was digging into in case you had not noticed, in response to your post. When you take a cheap shot at me, I will at my discretion, come back to take a dead center aimed shot at you. You are mistaken if you believe you can tell me what to do, say, or think. You just did both again, and it's no bother answering you. It's a stone cold pleasure.

Posted by Plytheman Av, there's no way you can compare the Level system to Deggi.

Sorry for the confusion -- I did not mean to directly compare the level system and Deggi. I was merely trying to point out that they are both systems which limit access, so not "just anyone" can get in.

Did you ever think that the reason there's a new thread on shutting down the LDB every week is because its a problem that needs to be addressed?

Addressing problems is fine -- but if it turns to flaming, bitching, whining, and moaning, then it's not getting done.

Your biggest problem Av, and subsequentially the site's biggest problem, is that you can never be wrong. Never.

I am frequently wrong, and have admitted to it many times. For example: Recently, I was wrong to announce an elections process before I had fully though it through, and upon polling the membership I realized that elections were not the best way to go. A lot of people put a lot of work into elections, and it was pulled away. I should not have done it that way.

UER is just like a travel guide to UE. The LDB now has Lat and Long points for locations for christ's sake.

To me, exploration has always been about the building/tunnel/place itself, and not about trying to find it in an urban wasteland. The lat/long points are optional.

Whatever, if you want to run this place like this then go ahead, have fun ring leading the biggest baby-sitting site on the net.

See, comments like this are not constructive, and are likely to result in your post being deleted or you being banned. Calling all members of UER "babies" is immature and doesn't help anything.

why are people that have openly admitted to being vandals still allowed to hold L3 access?

We try our best not to allow this. If you know of anyone who is L3 and admits publically to vandalism or theft, please let me know, and we can see about the best solution (stripping L3 or doing a poll or whatever).

All right, Av, maybe I shouldn't have said "shut the fuck up," but here's why I am I'm right about them needing to knock it off. I'll put it as simply as I can.

If you want to post your support for Av in this discussion--great. If you want to tell turbo and myself and whoever why we're wrong--great. If you just want to post your opinion about the matter at hand--great.

However, if you have nothing more substantive to post than "This is Av's site and he can do what he wants!" (in other words, no one should voice their opinion because this is Av's site), then you're initiating a TOTALLY SEPARATE ARGUMENT. Whether or not anyone should be able to question Av-X is a completely separate argument that is NOT what we're talking about. You're off-topic. And your off-topic, secondary argument just totally derails the thread because everyone has to now address your post.

That's why this is not a simple case of "if you don't like what they say, ignore it." Because when these guys initiate this ridiculous secondary issue in EVERY site policy thread, it completely derails them. Usually because every fifth post or so is someone saying it. It's off-topic and they ought to be posted elsewhere so that people who actually want to talk about the matter at hand can do so without having to argue two debates at once.

For God's sake, am I REALLY the only one here who gets tired of watching EVERY site policy thread get overwhelmed with "This is Av's site!" posts? I'm all for people posting their support of Av-X, but those posts are just basically telling people they shouldn't speak up at all.

I've really only seen the "this is av's site" posts in threads where the opponents are trying to force me to do something.

I've never seen it in threads with well-reasoned constructive arguments that make their point clearly and provide a good alternate or suggested solution.

-av