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UER Forum > Canada: Alberta / BC > Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels. (Viewed 1536794 times)
nobody 


Location: VANCOUVER B.C.
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5:55 is a state of mind

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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1460 on 4/17/2007 10:41 PM >
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Posted by A. Lien


We can.



Absolutely, and I peed myself when I read it, thank you Kubla, you owe me fresh Underwear, or you can wash these ones, let me know. N.




Operating Entirely With Bad Intentions
Tanuki 


Location: Victoria, BC
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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1461 on 4/18/2007 7:32 PM >
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The cistern on Store St. was built in 1859. It was the first cistern in Victoria, commissioned by Alfred Waddington to protect his business at Waddington Alley and Store St. The same year a second cistern was built in a central location along Government St. There was a few years break, and then several more cisterns were built.

In 1877 Victoria got it's first fire hydrants, so the cisterns weren't as important, but they were still kept for back up until their use was discontinued in 1908 with the introduction of a pressurized salt water system that fed out of the harbour. In total, 13 cisterns had been built throughout Victoria by that time.

The cisterns were underground tanks with brick or wood walls and bottoms, and wooden lids which could be lifted for filling or for use by the fire department. Later on they were kept filled by underground water mains, which were originally 12 foot long hollowed logs reinforced with wire.




yellow_wallpaper 


Location: Victoria, Canada
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If you're not dirty, you're not doing it right.

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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1462 on 4/18/2007 10:09 PM >
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Crazy, where'd you find that info?

Maybe its worth asking the fire department what they know (unless thats where you got it)




"...let us step into the night and pursue that flighty temptress, adventure." - Dumbledore
Tanuki 


Location: Victoria, BC
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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1463 on 4/18/2007 10:56 PM >
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From the book "First Water, Tigers! A History of the Victoria Fire Department.", as was recommended by anvil. And the title actually does make sense now that I've read a bit of the book.

There must have been detailed maps as to the exact location of each of the 13 cisterns during the period that they were been used. But these would be 100 years old, and anything older than about 1970 seems to get put into the archives, so they would be there. And unfortunately it will be the Victoria archives, so one would have to defeat the troll.




KublaKhan 


Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Total Likes: 199 likes


With Satan, it's always gimmie, gimmie.

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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1464 on 4/19/2007 12:08 AM >
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Posted by Tanuki
From the book "First Water, Tigers! A History of the Victoria Fire Department.", as was recommended by anvil. And the title actually does make sense now that I've read a bit of the book.

There must have been detailed maps as to the exact location of each of the 13 cisterns during the period that they were been used. But these would be 100 years old, and anything older than about 1970 seems to get put into the archives, so they would be there. And unfortunately it will be the Victoria archives, so one would have to defeat the troll.


BRIDGEKEEPER: Stop! Who would cross the Bridge of Death must answer me these
questions three, ere the other side he see.
LAUNCELOT: Ask me the questions, bridgekeeper. I am not afraid.
BRIDGEKEEPER: What is your name?
LAUNCELOT: My name is Sir Launcelot of Camelot.
BRIDGEKEEPER: What is your quest?
LAUNCELOT: To seek the Holy Grail.
BRIDGEKEEPER: What is your favorite color?
LAUNCELOT: Blue.
BRIDGEKEEPER: Right. Off you go.
LAUNCELOT: Oh, thank you. Thank you very much.




"The truth is knowable. But probably not, ever, incontrovertible."
--Don DeLillo
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anvil 


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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1465 on 4/19/2007 2:30 AM >
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So it's possible the cistern on Store Street either the extended basement, and possibly the existing drain system. 1859-1877 is pretty early in the city's history. The building at the corner of Store and Johnston might date to later than 1908 - not sure about that. Glad the book had such good info - I'd forgotten how valuable a resource it is.

And its unlikely that 150 year old water cisterns with wooden tops are still under there, supporting the weight of streets, sidewalks,etc. Pretty much puts to rest the idea that they're still down there - unless they were completely filled in with earth, cement, etc.



[last edit 4/19/2007 2:34 AM by anvil - edited 2 times]

KublaKhan 


Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Total Likes: 199 likes


With Satan, it's always gimmie, gimmie.

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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1466 on 4/19/2007 3:06 AM >
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Posted by anvil
So it's possible the cistern on Store Street either the extended basement, and possibly the existing drain system. 1859-1877 is pretty early in the city's history. The building at the corner of Store and Johnston might date to later than 1908 - not sure about that. Glad the book had such good info - I'd forgotten how valuable a resource it is.

And its unlikely that 150 year old water cisterns with wooden tops are still under there, supporting the weight of streets, sidewalks,etc. Pretty much puts to rest the idea that they're still down there - unless they were completely filled in with earth, cement, etc.


There's a store on the corner of S and P St.'s, directly across from the JH, and I was told by the shopkeeper that there is an entrance that leads to a tunnel that cuts across where this (alleged) cistern should be, and that the tunnel continues under W St. and then does a slight turn towards what is the Customs House.




"The truth is knowable. But probably not, ever, incontrovertible."
--Don DeLillo
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meggaman 


Location: victoria
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Hmmm,,what does this button do,,

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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1467 on 4/19/2007 5:10 AM >
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http://magazine.cl...inia.edu/x8589.xml
lookie,,lookie,,

81417.jpg (52 kb, 579x452)
click to view


cistern's , never know whats under there,,



[last edit 4/19/2007 5:26 AM by meggaman - edited 2 times]

surekill 


Location: Victoria, BC.
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I like tacos

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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1468 on 4/19/2007 5:49 AM >
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Wasn't store street a footbridge in 1860? When did they fill the ravine in anyhow?




anvil 


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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1469 on 4/19/2007 6:55 AM >
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Footbridge? Never heard of that before. Where was the bridge supposed to be?




surekill 


Location: Victoria, BC.
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I like tacos

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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1470 on 4/19/2007 8:58 AM >
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Market Square encompasses the lower block of Johnson, Store and Pandora Streets and the courtyard in the centre now covers the ravine which ran East to West between Johnson and Pandora (then Cormorant). Three footbridges crossed the ravine at Store, Government and Douglas.

Map from 1859 showing the footbridges before the ravine was filled in and Johnson Street was raised to its current level.
81422.jpg (77 kb, 450x615)
click to view


Map showing the Cistern as a green circle.
81425.jpg (86 kb, 644x582)
click to view


Map from Dr Lai's book. The cistern is shown to be above the drain.
I think it's safe to say there was room for it above the drain.
They obviously dug it up and got rid of it at some point.



[last edit 4/19/2007 9:02 AM by surekill - edited 2 times]

anvil 


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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1471 on 4/19/2007 5:04 PM >
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Nice. Interesting that the maps don't coincide.....one shows Pandora between Johnston and Cormorant, the other shows Pandora as Cormorant.

As for the cistern location, to me it looks like the cistern was beside, not above the drain. You can see the vertical drain pipe comes up to street level, beside the cistern. It couldn't do that if the cistern was directly above it.

Also, the map location of the cistern is completely different than in Lai's book. The map shows it closer to Waddington Alley, which makes sense considering he was the one who had it built, to protect his interests.



[last edit 4/19/2007 5:11 PM by anvil - edited 1 times]

KublaKhan 


Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Total Likes: 199 likes


With Satan, it's always gimmie, gimmie.

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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1472 on 4/19/2007 5:17 PM >
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...curiouser and curiouser...




"The truth is knowable. But probably not, ever, incontrovertible."
--Don DeLillo
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yellow_wallpaper 


Location: Victoria, Canada
Total Likes: 5 likes


If you're not dirty, you're not doing it right.

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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1473 on 4/19/2007 5:45 PM >
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Posted by meggaman
http://magazine.cl...inia.edu/x8589.xml
lookie,,lookie,,

81417.jpg (52 kb, 579x452)
click to view


cistern's , never know whats under there,,



Those pictures are making me antsy.


Posted by anvil
Nice. Interesting that the maps don't coincide.....one shows Pandora between Johnston and Cormorant, the other shows Pandora as Cormorant.


I don't think it showed Pandora as Cormorant, the map cuts off just before they merge.




"...let us step into the night and pursue that flighty temptress, adventure." - Dumbledore
J Peterman 


Location: Victoria B.C.
Total Likes: 15 likes


I'm going hunting for mysteries, cover me.

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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1474 on 4/19/2007 6:07 PM >
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Yea, Dr. Lai's map shows the cistern being slighty higher and beside the cistern. But in reality the drain runs right along side the extended basements, with no more than a meter's room between the drain and the basement.




I'm going hunting for mysteries, cover me.
anvil 


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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1475 on 4/19/2007 6:19 PM >
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Look at the maps again. On the top map, the streets go as follows (from bottom to top): Johnston, Pandora, Cormorant. On the bottom map (which I've seen before and noticed this then, too), the streets go Johnston, then Cormorant. What is Pandora on the top map is labelled Cormorant on the bottom. Pandora and Cormorant never actually merged - they separately intersected with Store - albeit fairly close together. As the bottom map is a very old one (I believe late 1800s-early 1900s), it was drawn long before Pandora was realigned. So it is incorrect.

Pandora today is actually Cormorant - they realigned things in the 1960s, when they built Centennial Square. Ripped down a whole block of Chinatown to do it.

The only thing I can suggest is that Pandora was a later creation, and it didn't exist when the old map was drawn. Which, now that I look at it, makes sense when you look at how Cormorant and Johnston are aligned, and which direction Pandora runs in the later map. I've never come across any info on when and why Pandora was created - anyone else?



[last edit 4/19/2007 6:21 PM by anvil - edited 1 times]

surekill 


Location: Victoria, BC.
Gender: Male
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I like tacos

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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1476 on 4/19/2007 8:18 PM >
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Yeah the street names have done a shuffle!

Umm as for the cistern, I would say that Lai's drawing is just a hypothetical drawing and not meant to be precise fact. All I am saying is that there is/was enough room for a 10 foot deep cistern to be between the drain and the street somewhere. That fire map is probably the most accurate source for its location. There are a bunch of manholes there but I can't recall what the are all supposed to be for.




Tanuki 


Location: Victoria, BC
Total Likes: 1 like




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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1477 on 4/19/2007 9:34 PM >
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Good research surekill, and I think you are conclusively showing that Lai's map is wrong.

I'd assume that the old fire map is correct, the location of the cistern would have been important at the time. And it's placement of the cistern seems quite logical, it places the cistern in an intersection so it could serve four blocks at once, and closer to the person who paid for it.

But the fire map doesn't agree with Lai's map. The fire map places the cistern closer to Waddington Alley, and further away from the buildings. According to the fire map the cistern is almost 50 feet from the edge of the buildings. That old stormdrain is much closer, only a few feet beyond the extended basements. Meaning that the cistern must be on the other side of the stormdrain. Lai's drawing has the location of the stormdrain wrong, and the location of the cistern relative to the stormdrain wrong. I've just quickly sketched where the stormdrain is actually located on the fire map, stormdrain in purple.

81446.jpg (81 kb, 644x582)
click to view


Anyways, one would think that they removed it, but Victoria does have a tendency to just pave things over and hope they disappear. And then sections of road cave in, and they just pave it over again. So it might still be there. And one day I might be walking along Johnson St and see a truck disappear into a hole in the road.





[last edit 4/19/2007 9:53 PM by Tanuki - edited 1 times]

KublaKhan 


Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Total Likes: 199 likes


With Satan, it's always gimmie, gimmie.

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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1478 on 4/19/2007 11:44 PM >
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Posted by Tanuki
Good research surekill, and I think you are conclusively showing that Lai's map is wrong.

I'd assume that the old fire map is correct, the location of the cistern would have been important at the time. And it's placement of the cistern seems quite logical, it places the cistern in an intersection so it could serve four blocks at once, and closer to the person who paid for it.

But the fire map doesn't agree with Lai's map. The fire map places the cistern closer to Waddington Alley, and further away from the buildings. According to the fire map the cistern is almost 50 feet from the edge of the buildings. That old stormdrain is much closer, only a few feet beyond the extended basements. Meaning that the cistern must be on the other side of the stormdrain. Lai's drawing has the location of the stormdrain wrong, and the location of the cistern relative to the stormdrain wrong. I've just quickly sketched where the stormdrain is actually located on the fire map, stormdrain in purple.

81446.jpg (81 kb, 644x582)
click to view


Anyways, one would think that they removed it, but Victoria does have a tendency to just pave things over and hope they disappear. And then sections of road cave in, and they just pave it over again. So it might still be there. And one day I might be walking along Johnson St and see a truck disappear into a hole in the road.



Yeah...I've heard that once or twice.





"The truth is knowable. But probably not, ever, incontrovertible."
--Don DeLillo
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yellow_wallpaper 


Location: Victoria, Canada
Total Likes: 5 likes


If you're not dirty, you're not doing it right.

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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1479 on 4/19/2007 11:49 PM >
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Oh, my bad about the roads. I don't drive so I'm rusty with street names.


Question. Is the "Chinese Theatre" in the map shown that old face of a building in an empty lot? Its across from the driveway to Market Square.




"...let us step into the night and pursue that flighty temptress, adventure." - Dumbledore
UER Forum > Canada: Alberta / BC > Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels. (Viewed 1536794 times)
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