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UER Forum > Canada: Alberta / BC > Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels. (Viewed 1537423 times)
A. Lien 


Location: Fantasy Island B.C.
Gender: Male
Total Likes: 17 likes


Abductees Anonymous all welcome

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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1420 on 4/14/2007 8:23 AM >
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Posted by yellow_wallpaper

Nope. H.


I was pondering your AV, and thinking that you are Asian, and perhaps an observer of sorts, someone who might hang back a bit. Then I saw your self portrait. hmmm. (I can relate to the photo reporter type of strategy)

Quote by Surekill:

"It was stand alone, at least from the drawings in Dr Lai's book."

Perhaps not everything in Dr. 'Lai's' book is the truth...

Cue X-Files music... Now!





My sister is Charlotte Light and Dark. Who am I?

Farewell and thank you... "I was doing something that I thought could have some impact someday. In many ways, it's really these photographs that kept me going creatively." Dennis Hopper
KublaKhan 


Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Total Likes: 199 likes


With Satan, it's always gimmie, gimmie.

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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1421 on 4/14/2007 8:41 AM >
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Posted by Tanuki

Beer. Bribe us with beer. It works.
KK likes everybody after about 3 pitchers.



Flatterer.

(pssst...Peterman's mom gave me a drive home tonight)


When are you coming home?





"The truth is knowable. But probably not, ever, incontrovertible."
--Don DeLillo
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KublaKhan 


Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Total Likes: 199 likes


With Satan, it's always gimmie, gimmie.

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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1422 on 4/14/2007 5:46 PM >
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So Peterman, A. Lien and I sat for a brief before heading down to a local pub to meet a new friend. Peterman, as always, had some new and vital information concerning a project, and we were advised to pick a date and prepare. Time is on our side for only so long. He also suggested that I purchase some new boots.

We met VanIsleStyleophile. I was expecting to meet some angst-filled guitar-playing woman in combat pants and Birkenstocks. Instead, I met a cute boy who plays guitar, wears combat pants and has a great voice.

Seriously, Brother. Nice set. I remember saying to Peterman that there's a lot of really good music coming out of Victoria, and one never knows who's going to be The Next Big Thing.

Just don't be the next Nelly Furtado, cuz we already had a Nelly Furtado Day at City Hall, and the mere thought of having another fills me with fear and loathing.

I might have mentioned this to A. Lien as well. He would have likely responded with "...yeah...that's great. Let's go check out Location X right now while this beer buzz is making me mellow." He's always thinking two moves ahead of the rest of us.

I have a feeling that we can work with VanIsleStyleophile, and I'm looking forward to meeting again, and to discussing our Next Big Thing, a plan so professionally weird that it requires each of us to leave specific notes for our next of kin.

Thanks for the pints, VanIsleStyleophile. When's your next gig?




"The truth is knowable. But probably not, ever, incontrovertible."
--Don DeLillo
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Tanuki 


Location: Victoria, BC
Total Likes: 1 like




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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1423 on 4/14/2007 6:36 PM >
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Posted by surekill
I thought they dug up and got rid of the cistern at some point? besides it was never shown to connect to those drains. It was stand alone, at least from the drawings in Dr Lai's book.


The cistern wouldn't have connected to storm drains, but it would have had to connect to some water pipes, and originally had some access from the top. But it may be completely stand alone now.

But it doesn't really matter if the cistern is supposed to connect to the storm drains. If a given space already has a stormdrain, or extended basement, or sewer line, then there can't also be a cistern there. Unless the cistern was shaped like a funky donut, which I don't think it was. The place where the cistern is supposed to be is actually a very busy bit of ground, with all sorts of things down there. And they are all pretty old. The biggest space that's under ground there which isn't already occupied by some other underground space (and we've been in these spaces to ground truth them) is only a couple feet wide, too small for a big cistern.




surekill 


Location: Victoria, BC.
Gender: Male
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I like tacos

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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1424 on 4/14/2007 7:44 PM >
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Isn't there like 20 or 30 feet between the drain and the storefronts? I didn't think this cistern thing was more than 10 feet wide was it? Well, anything's possible maybe it's deeper than the "original" storefront.




Tanuki 


Location: Victoria, BC
Total Likes: 1 like




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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1425 on 4/15/2007 1:08 AM >
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Posted by surekill
Isn't there like 20 or 30 feet between the drain and the storefronts? I didn't think this cistern thing was more than 10 feet wide was it? Well, anything's possible maybe it's deeper than the "original" storefront.


I don't remember all the exact measurements, but it was closer than that, plus there's the extended basements. There's less than 2 feet of space for the cistern to be in, which isn't enough. It could be deeper, and be sitting underneath the store basements, but this seems like an unlikely place for a cistern. I think the good doctor was just wrong about the original placement of that cistern.




surekill 


Location: Victoria, BC.
Gender: Male
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I like tacos

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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1426 on 4/15/2007 9:28 AM >
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The drain is about 16 or 20 feet underground right? Was this drain and cistern thing put in before or after they raised Johnson St? I know the brick goes right up to the current street level but maybe the extra brickwork was added afterwards? Maybe the cistern was on the other side of the drain, more towards the water. Perhaps he just got its position wrong in the book? Didn't it also say they removed the cistern at some point?



[last edit 4/15/2007 9:28 AM by surekill - edited 1 times]

Tanuki 


Location: Victoria, BC
Total Likes: 1 like




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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1427 on 4/15/2007 3:27 PM >
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Posted by surekill
The drain is about 16 or 20 feet underground right? Was this drain and cistern thing put in before or after they raised Johnson St? I know the brick goes right up to the current street level but maybe the extra brickwork was added afterwards? Maybe the cistern was on the other side of the drain, more towards the water. Perhaps he just got its position wrong in the book? Didn't it also say they removed the cistern at some point?


I think that the cistern and stormdrain must have existed at the same time. The stormdrain there looks like the original stormdrain system, and the stormdrain system would have been needed when the cistern was there, it was a street then and they needed to drain the lakes and marshes somehow. And I see no reason that they would have wanted to bury the cistern 2 stories deep just to avoid the stormdrain. Leading me to the conclusion that he got the position wrong in the book. It may have since been removed, but regardless, it was never where he places it in the book.

I think you're right that it's closer to the water. On the other side of the old street (which has shifted somewhat to its current location).




djokibi 


Location: Victoria, B.C.
Gender: Male
Total Likes: 0 likes


Urban Junglist

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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1428 on 4/15/2007 6:25 PM >
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Myself and a few friends are going to check out the Hall of Wonders, today.
I will post pictures when we return.



[last edit 4/15/2007 6:28 PM by djokibi - edited 1 times]

DJ Okibi - Union Sound System
anvil 


Gender: Male
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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1429 on 4/15/2007 6:36 PM >
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"During excavation work in the late 1950s, members of a city crew discovered a large water cistern about five feet beneath the road surface fo Store Street near Chinatown. This huge semi-circular structure was about ten feet high, twenty-four feet long, and twenty feet wide at its base." p 35 of Forbidden City

The book says that the Cistern was only five feet beneath Store Street - not two stories below. It also clearly shows that the cisterns and storm drains existed at the same time.

In the endnote, it says that Charles Goldie, engineer of underground services, City of Victoria gave this information, and that Goldie knew of the cistern before the excavation. So the city must have had maps, documents, etc. showing where these were located.


These cisterns were used in the early days by fireman for water storage according to Dr. Lai. Which would make sense, considering the city's water supply came from Spring Ridge.

"And I see no reason that they would have wanted to bury the cistern 2 stories deep just to avoid the stormdrain." Lai clearly says the cistern was five feet under the street.

"Leading me to the conclusion that he got the position wrong in the book. It may have since been removed, but regardless, it was never where he places it in the book." What led you to that conclusion?

"I think you're right that it's closer to the water. On the other side of the old street (which has shifted somewhat to its current location). "

Store Street never shifted - it ran along the front of the Market Square buildings, where the parking road/area is. The cistern should have been dead smack in the middle of that parking area. Store Street was lined with buildings on the water side - across from the Market Square buildings - including a brewery and other large structures - which were removed in the mid-20th century, and the connector between Store and Wharf Streets was cut through where those buildings used to stand.

If these structures were no longer in use by the 1950s, wouldn't it make sense - from a safety/engineering standpoint - that they were either removed or filled in?




Tanuki 


Location: Victoria, BC
Total Likes: 1 like




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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1430 on 4/15/2007 7:07 PM >
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Good research anvil, as always, and believe it or not you are actually agreeing with me. Yes, the stormdrain and cistern existed concurrently, and yes, the cistern is not below the level of the stormdrain and basements. In both of these facts, the information in Lai's book matches perfectly with what I would logically expect from inspecting the actual area.

What I'm saying is that if both of those facts are correct (and we both think they are), then the location that Lai gives cannot be correct. The little drawing that Lai gives is wrong. There is not room between the stormdrain and the extended basements for a cistern. In that little parking lot you are talking about, there is the extended basements, a bit of space, and then the stormdrain. There is not near enough room for a 20 foot wide cistern. The cistern has to be on the other side, under the grassy bit, or somewhere else all together.

The cistern may have been filled in or removed, or it could have just been covered up. That's generally what Victoria seems to do to underground spaces. I think that it's most likely there, but there is no entrance into it. At least not until something collapses and an entrance opens up. I was hoping that the stormdrain passed close enough to the cistern, and was old and dilapidated enough, that there might be a bit of collapse and one could find the cistern from there. But that doesn't seem to be the case.




anvil 


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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1431 on 4/15/2007 7:31 PM >
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Couple of questions:

- How far in front of the storefronts do the extended basements run?
- Do all of the Market Square Store Street buildings have these extended basements?

- how far below street level are the storm drains? Could these drains be newer than the ones in Lai's book - i.e. could they have redone the drains at a later date, brought them closer to street level, when they removed the cistern?

- Have you tried to contact Goldie - who was interviewed for the book? If he's still alive, he might prove an incredible source of information.

- I'm going to assume, that if these cisterns were used as reservoirs for fire fighting, that they dated back to prior to when there was pressurized water systems in place. That would be logical, as pressurized hydrants were in general use by the early 20th century, and possibly even earlier. This might help establish dates in regards to the network of cisterns. There's a good book on the early fire fighting in Victoria - can't exactly remember the name - something like "go, Tiger, go". Rare book, but could be useful.


- there must be records of these things somewhere - City or Provincial archives (though I've done extensive research in the BC Archives with reference to the water systems of Greater Victoria, and found nothing there), Fire Department collections, other municipal records......




yellow_wallpaper 


Location: Victoria, Canada
Total Likes: 5 likes


If you're not dirty, you're not doing it right.

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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1432 on 4/15/2007 9:03 PM >
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Posted by Tanuki
History prof at UVic? I'd be interested in chatting with him. Probably several of us would be. Any chance of disclosing his name, perhaps over beer? I'm sure you could get a tunnel tour out of it.

JP and I have undisputable evidence that the cistern isn't where Dr. L would put it, because we've been beneath Victoria at that location and it wasn't there.


Well, considering I'm not old enough to get into a bar, I'd have to take a rain cheque. I'll pm his name to anyone who wants it; however, you must use it for good and not evil. Haha.


Posted by A. Lien


I was pondering your AV, and thinking that you are Asian, and perhaps an observer of sorts, someone who might hang back a bit. Then I saw your self portrait. hmmm. (I can relate to the photo reporter type of strategy)



Hmm. You're off by a continent. I'm Ukrainian and just very short.

Yellow Wallpaper is a short story writen in the 1800s about mental illness and confinement.



[last edit 4/15/2007 9:06 PM by yellow_wallpaper - edited 1 times]

"...let us step into the night and pursue that flighty temptress, adventure." - Dumbledore
Tanuki 


Location: Victoria, BC
Total Likes: 1 like




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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1433 on 4/16/2007 12:16 AM >
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Sorry, it was last summer when JP and I were searching for the cistern, and I don't remember the exact measurements. But I'm certain that there isn't room for Lai's schematic to be correct. All the stores on that side of that block have extended basements. It's possible that the stormdrain is more recent, but again it looks old, so I think it was concurrent with the cistern. I don't think they would have changed the vertical location of the stormdrain, because that is pretty constrained by the physics of drainage. It seems much more likely that Lai was mistaken about the exact locations of things. I think it is very unlikely he actually went down there and checked the spaces out, like we did.

The Victoria archives, like any good treasure, are guarded by a troll. So unless they've digitized it and put it online it's very difficult to get. Your ideas of searching out Goldie and that old firefighting book are excellent leads, I'll look into that.


Posted by yellow_wallpaper
Well, considering I'm not old enough to get into a bar, I'd have to take a rain cheque. I'll pm his name to anyone who wants it; however, you must use it for good and not evil. Haha.


Thanks!



[last edit 4/16/2007 12:16 AM by Tanuki - edited 1 times]

konk 


Location: Toronto ON
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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1434 on 4/16/2007 12:55 AM >
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Another cistern was found a few years ago, there was an article at the time in the TC. Some city worker popped open the wrong manhole cover and found a cistern full of water that would have been used for firefighting purposes. I don't know if it is somehow possible to search back issues of the TC, but the story was within the last 5 years or so.




anvil 


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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1435 on 4/16/2007 1:05 AM >
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The book is titled "First Water, Tigers! A History of the Victoria Fire Department." by Dave Parker .

He may not have gotten the location wrong, but could the dates be off? Do we know when the cistern was built? How long it was used for? Perhaps the cistern predates the Market Square buildings, which were built in the late 1880s - 1890s.




Tanuki 


Location: Victoria, BC
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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1436 on 4/16/2007 1:22 AM >
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They have the book at UVic special collections, I'll check it out tomorrow.

Does anyone know if there's an easy way to search the back issues of the TC?




A. Lien 


Location: Fantasy Island B.C.
Gender: Male
Total Likes: 17 likes


Abductees Anonymous all welcome

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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1437 on 4/16/2007 2:39 AM >
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Posted by yellow_wallpaper

Hmm. You're off by a continent. I'm Ukrainian and just very short.

Yellow Wallpaper is a short story writen in the 1800s about mental illness and confinement.


Very interesting, and shows my psychic abilities to be worth about fiddy cent, if dat. The story Yellow Wallpaper sounds intriguing. I've been thinking about reading The Bell Jar. (Even if it's a chick flick of a book, who cares) Maybe there are some similarities.

If you have access, or relatives in Ukrainia, well, it seems there are a lot of awesome things to explore there.

Yeah, Tanuki, that Archive lady, wow, she's an odd duck. Cyborg would be my guess. There must be some way to warm her up, but I don't pack that kind of heat. Sorry, that didn't come out right. I mean, maybe a furnace repair man could cheer her up.

I believe the TC has microfish, or at least the ability to track their own stories. Good luck.




My sister is Charlotte Light and Dark. Who am I?

Farewell and thank you... "I was doing something that I thought could have some impact someday. In many ways, it's really these photographs that kept me going creatively." Dennis Hopper
KublaKhan 


Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Total Likes: 199 likes


With Satan, it's always gimmie, gimmie.

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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1438 on 4/16/2007 3:12 AM >
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Posted by Tanuki
They have the book at UVic special collections, I'll check it out tomorrow.

Does anyone know if there's an easy way to search the back issues of the TC?


Canadian Newsstand database. As a UVic Student, you have unfettered access to this valuable resource.




"The truth is knowable. But probably not, ever, incontrovertible."
--Don DeLillo
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djokibi 


Location: Victoria, B.C.
Gender: Male
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Urban Junglist

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Re: Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels.
< Reply # 1439 on 4/16/2007 5:16 AM >
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Had a great time in the Hall of Wonders, today.
Found two entrances (and know of a third,) went part way down one, and all the way down the other.
We actually met up with two other groups of explorers.
I'll post some pictures as soon as my friend sends them.



[last edit 4/16/2007 5:17 AM by djokibi - edited 2 times]

DJ Okibi - Union Sound System
UER Forum > Canada: Alberta / BC > Under the Garden City: Victoria B.C. secret tunnels. (Viewed 1537423 times)
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