|
null_recipe
location:
Portland, Oregon
Gender: Male
 |  | Chemical Awareness:
< on 5/3/2004 10:12 PM >
|  | | | When exploring abandoned industrial sites always be on the alert for possible chemical contamination. It has been a common practice to leave toxic waste on a site if the people could get away with it. This is another reason why they sometimes do not demolish such sites as it would create a superfund situation requiring extensive environmental clean up and soil removal, etc.
Note: I am going to describe a worst case toxic scenario:
If you see deteriorating 55 gallon drums sticking out of the ground, beware. Also in the site, never open any chemical containers. Stay out of old transformer housings that may contain PCB's.
Signs of chemical contamination are obviously detectible by smell and sometimes you will see discoloration of material or soil, no plant life on the spot in question. Oil or "rainbow" slicks on water. Do not let your body come into contact with any such soil, materials, and especially the water. Use appropriate PPE (Personal Protective Equipment). Wear boots (rubber boots or slip on galoshes would provide more protection), heavy gloves, and long pants and long sleved shirts. If you stay away from liquid you should be okay. And plan for respirators if you smell heavy solvent smells. I forgot to mention, some chemicals will "grow" crystals or fungi looking things when they seep out of containers. It also would be a good idea to wear some sort of glasses to protect your eyes.
Just be on the look out for anything out of the ordinary and take decent pictures. Stuff like this should be reported for clean-up.
The key is to staying dry and away from liquids, as some chemicals such as acids, require water to activate once they have dried up or formed into crystals. (i.e- Sulfuric, Phosphoric, Hydroflouric.) Now, if there are gasses present, that is another story and it has already been well addressed. This usually is only a concern in confined spaces or tunnels.
General signs of chemical exposure: Diziness, increased heart rate, dilation of pupils, dry and scratch throat, cannot think clearly, lethargy, unconsiousness, convulsions, coma and death. Skin: rashes or first degree burns. Some chemcials such as hydroflouric acid have no symptoms initially. It immediately attacks and leeches the calcium from the exposed area. A few hours later you will have extreme pain and the remedy is amputation if direct calcium injections and paste do not slow it down. Worse yet, is death.
(Some chemcials have no smell, such as Hydroflouric Acid.)
Okay, enough said. Just watch out for the obvious and be safe. I am pretty new here, however If anyone has any questions about chemicals, or industrial equipment, just ask. I was in the Navy for 14 years aboard ship and I worked in the aviation field. Since I got out I have worked in heavy industry and in the semiconductor field. I work directly with toxic chemicals on a regular basis.
[last edit 5/3/2004 10:12 PM by null_recipe - edited 1 times]
|
|
PAWolf
      
Not from Pennsylvania
location:
KCMO
Gender: Male
We haven't located us yet.
| |  |  |  | Re: Chemical Awareness:
<Reply # 1 on 5/4/2004 12:20 PM >
|  | | | What sorts of industries use hydroflouric acid? I know it can be used in glass etching but aside from that where else might it be a hazard?
Make Beer, Not War. |
|
MacGyver
location:
St Paul, Minnesota
Gender: Male
"Someone go find me a paperclip, a D-cell battery, and a cheese grater"
| | Re: Chemical Awareness:
<Reply # 2 on 5/4/2004 12:38 PM >
| | | | Posted by PAWolf
What sorts of industries use hydroflouric acid? I know it can be used in glass etching but aside from that where else might it be a hazard? |
Quick googling, my friend (it helps to spell it right, too):
http://www.turi.org/PDF/hf.pdf
http://www.google.com/search?q=hydrofluoric+acid+uses
[last edit 5/4/2004 12:38 PM by MacGyver - edited 1 times]
Like a fiend with his dope / a drunkard his wine / a man will have lust for the lure of the mine
"If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent." |
|
salt
location:
winta hill, in sommaville
Gender: Male
| | | | Re: Chemical Awareness:
<Reply # 3 on 5/6/2004 6:49 PM >
| | | | Lately ive been very concerned about polychlorinated byphenyls. Ive been seeing so many pcb cleanup machines, which were used for holding pcb's(industrial waste) They appear to still be switched on but are not connected to any power source. From what ive read once one of these containment machines is on, you can not turn it off. PCB's are a very dangerous, if spilled into the groundwater they can contanminate hundred of square miles. And they are extremely harmful to humans. Does anyone have anymore info about pcb's, ive been able to find several sites such epa's main site, but the info they give is rather un-informative as to where pcb's come from.ie. what kind of industrial waste(oil/petrolium, bio/organic waste??). I also did a search the forum and was suprised that no results came up.
|
|
BigPoppaMikey
This user has been banned. See the banlist page for more details.
location:
Milpitas, California
Gender: Male
Don't follow me unless you want to...
| | |  | | Re: Chemical Awareness:
<Reply # 4 on 5/6/2004 7:09 PM >
| | | | HF acid is used in refineries and let me tell you a couple of things about it.
1. Water does not dilute it.
2. The ONLY way to nuetralize it is with calcium gloucanate.
3. You may not notice it until hours later.
4. And one exposure in the smallest amount sets you up for loss of bone density like oesteoperosis in the future. This WILL happen.
So, do not mess with HF acid. It is one of the nastiest acids known to mankind.
As for PCB's, when we used a Vactor to suck off a site contaminated with PCB's, we were informed by the US Government that the truck ALSO had to be buried along with the waste. There is no way to COMPLETELY decontaminate the truck. Needless to say my office manager was quite pissed as it was a new truck and it cost around US$750,000.
My two cents says just be careful out there when UE'ing or you may end up with something that lasts for a lifetime and I'm not talking about the memories either...
Wishing I was Jack Dalton just to have all the cool leftovers... |
|
salt
location:
winta hill, in sommaville
Gender: Male
| | | | Re: Chemical Awareness:
<Reply # 5 on 5/7/2004 4:53 PM >
| | | | Yo, big poppa. What the hell is a vactor, and do you know exactly what pcb's are.
|
|
MacGyver
location:
St Paul, Minnesota
Gender: Male
"Someone go find me a paperclip, a D-cell battery, and a cheese grater"
| | Re: Chemical Awareness:
<Reply # 6 on 5/7/2004 5:21 PM >
| | | | Remember, google is your friend!
A vactor is a truck with a delightfully oversized vacuum pump and holding tank. They are used to clean up sewage spills and all sorts of other things where a massive wet vac on wheels is handy:
The encyclopedia has some limited info about PCBs, and google has lots of answers:
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/english/iyh/environment/pcb.html
http://ohioline.osu.edu/cd-fact/0201.html
http://www.albany.edu/sph/superfund/pcb.html
Like a fiend with his dope / a drunkard his wine / a man will have lust for the lure of the mine
"If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent." |
|
Marshall Alpha-1
location:
Teh Great White North Eh...ya Hoser
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Chemical Awareness:
<Reply # 7 on 5/7/2004 5:55 PM >
| | | | HF ACID sets you up for immediate Bone density problems eh? hmm im knckered...
As well, if your offloading a tanker truck full of Caustic, DO NOT wipe your brow with your glove, ive never felt ANYTHING burn like that before... ever.
But on another note...
They shouldnt have had to bury the Vac truck BigP, coulda sent it on up to the swan hills site in Alberta, we do full decontaminations of sheit like that up here
S:"My Bag's frozen solid"
Dixon:"So is mine"
S:" I meant my messenger bag..."
Dixon:" Oh...uh yea" |
|
Mancubus
| | Re: Chemical Awareness:
<Reply # 8 on 5/7/2004 8:10 PM >
| | | | Hehe. Yeah, death would be a pretty good indicator something isn't right.
|
|
BigPoppaMikey
This user has been banned. See the banlist page for more details.
location:
Milpitas, California
Gender: Male
Don't follow me unless you want to...
| | | | | Re: Chemical Awareness:
<Reply # 9 on 5/7/2004 8:52 PM >
| | | | Gotta love a Vactor, the stainless tanks on the sides are for a pressure washer. Love them damn things, they are sooo helpful. Anyway, if there is no way to test negative on ALL equipment (we have to decon everything after a job like that and then test it) then it has to go. We drummed up and buried all our equipment (full face respirators, hydroblast boots, etc.). The vactor was buried because no matter how many times we diesel rinsed the cyclone, it still came up positive. Our company (and the EPA) does not take a chance of off-loading PCB's onto another site.
Wishing I was Jack Dalton just to have all the cool leftovers... |
|
F A S T
location:
Oakland, CA
Gender: Male
Coastal Wind
| | | | Re: Chemical Awareness:
<Reply # 10 on 5/8/2004 4:28 AM >
| | | | If you see deteriorating 55 gallon drums sticking out of the ground, beware. Also in the site, never open any chemical containers. Stay out of old transformer housings that may contain PCB's.
|
I found an old transformer house that had documents inside that pertained to PCB and to LEAD.
Supposedly its been cleaned up and will go on the market for sale in a month or so.
Would you be concerned?
What exactly does PCB do to you?
F A S T |
|
BigPoppaMikey
This user has been banned. See the banlist page for more details.
location:
Milpitas, California
Gender: Male
Don't follow me unless you want to...
| | | | | Re: Chemical Awareness:
<Reply # 11 on 5/8/2004 5:07 PM >
| | | | Cancer and reproductive problems (read mutants). Unless the place was torn down, it is still contaminated. The stuff is in everything when it is used in a place... And I know which site that is, F A S T...
Wishing I was Jack Dalton just to have all the cool leftovers... |
|
SPEK Photo
location:
Where you were not.
"Chere cachère!"
| | | Re: Chemical Awareness:
<Reply # 12 on 5/9/2004 1:10 AM >
| | | | I took this one at Jenkins Valve site of Montreal Canada, the site is one of the most contaminated in the province, mainly from heavy metals and pcb.
http://www.uer.ca/locations/viewgal.asp?picid=16052
also there was a strange gelly substance in on the asphalt at the back, of something that looked like a pile of clear melting ice, but it really wasn't ice! The thing lasted the whole winter and became kind of more dry.
november 2003
april 2004:
metal powder in pouches, and unknown substance in barrels.
Pour fins d'archives.
WWW.EXPLORATIONURBAINE.CA |
|
null_recipe
location:
Portland, Oregon
Gender: Male
| | Re: Chemical Awareness:
<Reply # 13 on 5/10/2004 6:14 AM >
| | | | Spec,
That jelly like substance may be old transformer oil. Was it located near any damaged transformers? If so, I would be willing to bet it is loaded with high levels of PCB's.
|
|
null_recipe
location:
Portland, Oregon
Gender: Male
| | Re: Chemical Awareness:
<Reply # 14 on 5/10/2004 6:30 AM >
| | | | Posted by Dixon
HF ACID sets you up for immediate Bone density problems eh? hmm im knckered...
As well, if your offloading a tanker truck full of Caustic, DO NOT wipe your brow with your glove, ive never felt ANYTHING burn like that before... ever.
But on another note...
They shouldnt have had to bury the Vac truck BigP, coulda sent it on up to the swan hills site in Alberta, we do full decontaminations of sheit like that up here
|
Ha, ha, you are right about not wiping your brow! We sometimes joke about that sort of thing. I work in some extremely toxic chemical environments with acid gear, acid gloves, etc. I know if I accidentally got sulfuric acid on me when I wash my jeans, little holes form were you were exposed when you wash them! Also, if my safety glasses fall off while I am working I leave them on the floor. (I wear a face shield.) Since I work with 100% sulfuric acid, Hydroflouric acid, amonnium hydroxide, etc. I have become very cautious. I was paranoid at first.
Some stuff is so contaminated that it is just easier to bury it. (Again it depends on what the contaminant is too.) From my experience using sulfuric or HF acid you can never completely decontaminate a contaminated item. We rinse them with deionized (DI) water many times and some use sodium bicarbinate if it is not a high purity tank. Then we will place small patches of DI water on various surfaces and use PH paper to see what the reading is. Almost always, you can never get the part back to neutral PH. Maybe you guys could have deconned the truck though, or maybe not. However there is another issue and that is legal liability.
Lastly, HF is scary stuff, especially the 49% used in etching. It depends on how much you get on you as enough can kill you, especially if you inhale the vapors. I heard a horror story about a Vietnamese man who worked at a smaller semiconductor plant and he could not speak much english. An engineer gave him some parts to clean in a wet sink. A short time later the engineer came by and he was cleaning the parts with no acid gloves. He ended up losing both arms. (This was pre-osha back in the early days of the industry.)
One more thing, another sign of contamination is heavy corrosion, especially on newer things that you know contacted chemicals. Chlorine will eat stainless steel up.
[last edit 5/10/2004 6:33 AM by null_recipe - edited 1 times]
|
|
hax0r
| | | Re: Chemical Awareness:
<Reply # 15 on 5/10/2004 8:55 PM >
|  | | | Posted by salt
...and do you know exactly what pcb's are.
|
PCB's were used at one time in large electrical equipment like transformers because of their high heat exchange rating. They were used to conduct heat away from say a transformer. I'd say the most common place you'd find them in ue is in a plant that used to manufacture large electric equipment or in some sort of power station with large high-voltage transformers. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but if it hasn't leeked out of the casing of something it's probably not gonna hurt you. but you probably should stay away from old transformers especially if the casing is damaged.
Air Iraq: We get you there, you get back |
|
null_recipe
location:
Portland, Oregon
Gender: Male
| | Re: Chemical Awareness:
<Reply # 16 on 5/10/2004 10:06 PM >
| | | | Posted by hax0r
PCB's were used at one time in large electrical equipment like transformers because of their high heat exchange rating. They were used to conduct heat away from say a transformer. I'd say the most common place you'd find them in ue is in a plant that used to manufacture large electric equipment or in some sort of power station with large high-voltage transformers. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but if it hasn't leeked out of the casing of something it's probably not gonna hurt you. but you probably should stay away from old transformers especially if the casing is damaged.
|
You are absolutely correct in what you say.
The PCB's are in the older transformers cooling oil, I believe, which if the transformer is intact should not pose much of a problem. I would be worried about the soil and ground water though.
|
|
SPEK Photo
location:
Where you were not.
"Chere cachère!"
| | | Re: Chemical Awareness:
<Reply # 17 on 5/11/2004 2:52 AM >
| | | | Posted by null_recipe
Spec,
That jelly like substance may be old transformer oil. Was it located near any damaged transformers? If so, I would be willing to bet it is loaded with high levels of PCB's.
|
No, it wasn't, it was outside on the asphalt between two buildings. it wasn't there in 1996, and it as kind of dried up during the winter.
BTW. PCB were oil or oil additive. That's why we always say "oil contaminated with PCB" added to oil, PCB makes them really resistant to temperature and far more better for electric resistance.
at Jenkins lots of PCB contaminated oils come from the old fluid cutting oil from machinery. When cutting metals, you always use a mix of 90% water and 10% soluble oil. PCB were used to in oil as an everlasting cutting oil, well lasting as long as the oil wasn't too dirty. After use, old oil was... dumped on the site like jenkins, stored in tanks like at jenkins again, or also sprayed on gravel country road to minimize dust.
Pour fins d'archives.
WWW.EXPLORATIONURBAINE.CA |
|
null_recipe
location:
Portland, Oregon
Gender: Male
| | Re: Chemical Awareness:
<Reply # 18 on 5/11/2004 4:09 AM >
| | | | If you ever go back to that site again you could write down the chemical symbols or names & I could probably tell you what they are by looking them up. I have access to quite a bit of chemical data files.
|
|
SPEK Photo
location:
Where you were not.
"Chere cachère!"
| | | Re: Chemical Awareness:
<Reply # 19 on 5/11/2004 10:47 PM >
| | | | Posted by null_recipe
If you ever go back to that site again you could write down the chemical symbols or names & I could probably tell you what they are by looking them up. I have access to quite a bit of chemical data files.
|
you mean barrels and pouches?
pouches were metallic powder chrome or zinc and barrel, I don't remember I will take pictures of it next time but what is in the barrel isn't necessary what is the thing inside...
Pour fins d'archives.
WWW.EXPLORATIONURBAINE.CA |
|
Powered by AvBoard AvBoard version 1.5 alpha
Page Generated In: 93 ms
|
|
Ethics
