Infiltration

Urban Caver Donor location: San Antonio, Tx Gender: Male quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur \| \| \| \|	importance of rope < on 4/13/2004 1:42 AM >

	I'm not posting this to get flamed, just letting you know in advance.... how important do you think rope is? I mean i have been exploring drains, ditches, sewers, and abandoned buildings since i was 8-9 (brother was a great influence)... the places i have gone include the old plantation house behind LabCorps (formerly National Health Laboratories, formerly Revlon Labs), before the blood bank bought the property and had the house erased.... Midget Mansion (after it was torn or burned down, mainly explored the land - killer bamboo forest - and basement levels, power distribution center, etc). and most ditches, stormdrains, and sewer lines within a 5 mile radius... not once have i needed rope... The reason i pose this question is, harbor freight has 75' of camo rope for like 15.99 or so... I have been rapelling many times at enchanted rock and big bend, climbing at big bend, and caving all over south texas... I still have my harness, carabiners, 1 ascender (long story), 2 descenders (figure 8, and a figure 8 with horns), nuts, expanding nuts, cowtails, etc... Is there any realistic situation i may need the rope? back when alamo quarry was actually a quarry, we would just take a 20' rope and loop it over the external ladder to climb it... same thing with water towers and such... is there a realistic reason for me carrying my harness, equipment, and 75' of rope in my vehicle?

Duke Noble Donor location: Awww-shitby, Ontario Gender: Male Move it or lose it \|	Re: importance of rope <Reply # 1 on 4/13/2004 2:05 AM >

	Need? I don't see what that has to do with anything. If you HAVE that stuff, chances are you'll find a use for it, especially if you invest in a grapling hook. Besides, if you've ever played Sam and Max hit the Road you'll know that "Rope always comes in handy in these types of games." Contrary to popular belief, death isn't just for dead people. I know I was surprised too! It can happen to anybody! Horses, fiddler crabs, even a potato can die! - Tick

Malabaristo location: Eau Claire Wisconsin Gender: Male \| \| \|	Re: importance of rope <Reply # 2 on 4/13/2004 2:18 AM >

	75 feet of what sort of rope? I wasn't aware that Harbor Freight sold any climbing gear. Granted, I don't know their inventory all that well, but $16.99 seems a bit on the cheap side for something you're trusting your life with.

Urban Caver Donor location: San Antonio, Tx Gender: Male quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur \| \| \| \|	Re: importance of rope <Reply # 3 on 4/13/2004 3:45 AM >

	not sure of the type, just know that i hauled my brothers suburban (1980-83 model) 15 miles with it, so, it cant be too bad.... seriously it doesnt say if it is static or dynamic, no weight classes, i figure since all we used was two loops, its probably 1000 to 1500 lb static... as for harbor frieght, they seem to be much like any other outlet store, i have gone to one and found rubber boots for 5 bux, yet they had nothing else useful, then hit another and found an assortment of hard hats, anchors, and flashlights.... i really think it just depends on what each one stocks, but am not certain. the rope in question is the same one i used when scaling a pecan tree in my bro's yard, and it supported my weight plus the limbs i was lopping off and lowering... so it cant be that bad.. i weigh around 150, the drop from the top of the tree was around 30'. I did a free fall and started slowing down maybe 10 feet from the ground... taking into consideration the descender, i figure i hit the stop point around 5' from groundm, i dont know if the bounce was attributable to the tree or the rope, but i hit bottom then bounced back up... either way the rope seems to be able to carry a 150lb 20' drop without any issues... and we have used it for towing a boat out from behind his garage, suspending an engine, and some training on an old oak tree in my backyard since then... so it cant be too crappy. i HAVE the stuff already, but am considering buying another 75' length to keep in the vehicle... i mean hell, i can find a use anywhere... "tosses it over a house I'm spiderman! Tjhe realistic view however is what i am looking for, like... is there a chance i will come across a storm drain with a 20' drop to a sump? alternate way to a 2nd story open window? etc.... just trying to gain some input, as i try to make ue at the bottom of my budget... have 2 internet connections to pay, 3 phone bills, and am rebuilding a server soon.

Corporeal Punishment location: Lima Center, WI Gender: Male Welcome to your heart... \|	Re: importance of rope <Reply # 4 on 4/13/2004 4:32 AM >

	Um, as I understood it, proper climbing rope is upwards of $200. I would trust aspects of my life (such as my legs not being broken, my ankles surviving an impact, and other such things) to the cheaper stuff, but not my actual life. I've got 100 feet of $20 rope sitting next to me, but I have not yet found a use for it. I intend only to take it into the woods with me when the weather gets nicer. In a building, drain, etc, I would trust what I was attaching it to less than I would trust the actual rope. I would not, however, use cheap rope with anything intended for rappeling, as I assume that would put a different type of strain on the rope. The stuff I have would hold upwards of 300 pounds easy, but I thought I read somewhere that there is a big difference between using it to tie a raft, and using it to climb. Something about the stress or load or something. Anyways, I'd like to have some of this cleared up, myself. Any rope experts out there? Suit by Armani...Balls by King Kong. "Please do not offer my god a peanut"

Krenta location: Saint Paul, MN Nope, wasn't me. \|	Re: importance of rope <Reply # 5 on 4/13/2004 6:04 AM >

	Not a rope expert, by any means... but rope is one of those things that you either really need, or don't need at all. A lot of drains (at least around here) have diversion chambers, dropshafts, and other similar thingies that aren't readily climbable. Buildings are debateable, and I don't want to start the grappling hook thread again, but some people find a use for it. Even when you can climb something, a rope is frequently useful for lowering or raising tripods, backpacks, or whatever from one level to another. A short length of rope/utility cord/webbing works great to open some certain types of manhole covers that have a loop molded into them. Like TVB, I'd be more wary of whatever you're attaching the rope to than the rope itself, if it's a decent-quality rope with no "problems" (dry rot, for instance). I've gotten 50' of pretty nice, two-thousand-pound rated static climbing rope for $20, and some of us have been using a 16' length of 1" braided nylon rope from a hardware store to enter/exit a local drain for several months now, and it's worked fine, though it's starting to get a little fuzzy. If you're not going to be in a position where you'd be falling on the rope, it'll probably be fine for whatever you do with it... but, as always, your mileage may vary. If you've got a car and use it to UE, throw the rope in the trunk. It's a lot less "suspicious" than a crowbar, after all, and you might just find an use for it. Have Speed Graphic, Will Travel.

Uncle Goose location: Ghent, Belgium Gender: Male The Goose knows best. \| \|	Re: importance of rope <Reply # 6 on 4/13/2004 11:07 AM >

	The one time I really needed one I didn't have one. I had to decent from a fairly steep hill so instead I used my bajonet to lower myself. Now I have a rope with me all the time. A 1000 days of sorrow can disapear in a split second, it takes only one person to make it happen.

Plytheman location: Lawrence, Massachusetts Obey The Deer \| \|	Re: importance of rope <Reply # 7 on 4/13/2004 11:31 AM >

	If you have the gear, go for it... who knows when it would come in handy... I'm achin, I'm shakin, I'm breakin, Like Humans Do!! -Byrne

MacGyver location: St Paul, Minnesota Gender: Male "Someone go find me a paperclip, a D-cell battery, and a cheese grater" \|	Re: importance of rope <Reply # 8 on 4/13/2004 12:10 PM >

	You should be very, very wary of trusting your life to $15 worth of rope that has no ratings or specifications. Proper climbing rope is not only constructed differently than cheap rope and from different materials, but it has also passed extremely rigid safety inspections and six sigma quality probablility tests. Also, once you have used a rope of any sort for something like towing a car, I would never rely on it to support my weight again. The kinds of forces you can create between two cars bouncing along a road may or may not hurt the rope, but are you really going to risk it? I have some industrial twisted nylon rope I use for felling trees and whatnot. It works great for setting up handlines while exploring, but I would be hesitant to use it in such a way that I am entirely depending on it to keep me from falling. I have a 10.5x60m Mammut climbing rope I use strictly for climbing things. It's several years old, but I trust it completely. I know exactly where it's been stored, who has used it, and what for. I've never exerted it to forces other than people fallin, ascending, and rappeling. Like a fiend with his dope / a drunkard his wine / a man will have lust for the lure of the mine "If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent."

RevSM location: South Central Texas \| \|	Re: importance of rope <Reply # 9 on 4/13/2004 3:14 PM >

	I have used rope 3 or 4 times while exploring using the full getup – harness ascender / decenders etc. I actually carry all my gear in my trunk even though I rarely need it. I would say it can be useful but like everyone else, I don’t know if I would trust my life to the rope that you are considering. There is an army surplus store in Austin called Banana Bay that had 120’ static rappelling rope for about $60 +. You might consider that if you have the funds. Plus it would be nice to have an extra rope for safety if we ever go out and do something involving climbing / rappelling. Tetanus for Breakfast! http://www.shatteredshutter.com

Rockman1 Noble Donor location: Depends on the time of day Gender: Male \|	Re: importance of rope <Reply # 10 on 4/13/2004 3:25 PM >

	Being somewhat of a rope expert to a degree. A few guidelines to follow are 1. Static rope is great for rescue situations ( less stretch ) but also less shock value should you slip= harder stop!2. Dynamic rope is preferred for sport rapelling situations, more stretch and greater shock absorbing qualities. A bar rack is now the standard used over figure eights, but the eights are easier to use, they just disperse less heat meaning more rope fatigue. Buy rope that is tagged and rated, never mind any army surplus crap that sells for like $15.00 it's probably worth just that. Good rope is expensive, kernmantle is the best fibre system to choose from. Kernmantle rope is durable, requires less care than natural fibre rope and you can easily detect flaws. Never, ever use rope that is used for climbing/ rapelling for any other purpose, like towing a car or waterskiiers. Also avoid stepping on rope, as durable as it is, when you stand on it you crush the fibres and grind in minuscule amounts of dirt, debris or even glass. On the subject... when you are using rope to rapell, avois flash rapelling, you know SWAT style stuff, it melts the outer sheath of the rope. Use an old piece of carpet as edge protection where the rope meets the edge of the building when rapelling. [last edit 4/13/2004 3:25 PM by Rockman1 - edited 1 times] Gettin' close to an overload...everyday's a no win situation..

Mark Very Noble Donor location: South Carolina Gender: Male What is a lion, king of the savannah, when hes at the south pole? \|	Re: importance of rope <Reply # 11 on 4/13/2004 3:26 PM >

	To clear nearly all this up You are probably looking at boat rope. Boat rope is woven nearly identicaly as climbing rope. Will it work..... yeah(kinda) however there is a downside. If you are repeling and or ascending you are putting stress on the rope its not designed to take. This boat rope is made out of mainly synthetics (I forget the type) but it melts very easily. If your a fast repeler like me you can heat rope up even 20 feet worth in a second. The heat makes weak spots in the woven threads. See the green spot in the pic. Generally the outer shell of the rope (the red sides) wont show it. You have to physically feel the rope for differences. Climbing rope however wont. However there is wet and dry rope. One rope you dont get wet and cant remeber off the top of my head because honestly I just forgot. Do a little reserch. If you are repeling get STATIC rope. This rope does not streach. Which is probably what most UEers need. you can put knots in etc works great and is cheaper then climbing. Also static rope you should go to a climbing store. Buy it off the spool. Also get 1" webbing. This is what you use to tie off the rope to. Knots are another story you MUST KNOW. Warning for all who use rope! If your rope goes over a 90 degree angle or any rough angles DO NOT just put the rope there. Put pipe insulation around it a thtat point. 2 layers works best. If you dont your rope can just magicly cut without you seeing it up top. The internals can rip then the outer shell will go once the inner part cuts. PM me for more info. "If the threat level goes up its probably because of me." "I am looking for a girl who enjoys headbutting beltbuckles"

Mark Very Noble Donor location: South Carolina Gender: Male What is a lion, king of the savannah, when hes at the south pole? \|	Re: importance of rope <Reply # 12 on 4/13/2004 3:29 PM >

	Rock man got to it while I was making my damn pic. Anyways hes got the details as well. Good post I might add. "If the threat level goes up its probably because of me." "I am looking for a girl who enjoys headbutting beltbuckles"

Urban Caver Donor location: San Antonio, Tx Gender: Male quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur \| \| \| \|	Re: importance of rope <Reply # 13 on 4/13/2004 6:07 PM >

	Thanks for all the replies RevSM: good call, the rope you are talking about is (i assume) the olive drab, 7/16" nylon twisted climbing rope? if so, thats the same stuff we used to use on turkey peak all the time while rapelling.. and would be a far better idea than the junk i was looking at. Rockman1 and Mark: Thanks for the info, i still have some static and dynamic ropes i used to use for caving, but, they have been stored in a garage that has flooded twice, and gets its fair share of heat and rodents... so, am probably going to throw it out soon, or keep it around for light utility use (both of the ropes have been gnawed on, friggin sewer rats).. As far as bar racks go, i used to have one that i used exclusively for caving, but i sold it off a while back, along with a chest/upper harness, to someone that couldnt afford new ones and really needed the equipment, as it wasnt seeing much use over here and i never really got used to either of them... I learned on figure 8's, so am more comfortable with them i guess.. MacGuyver: Wasnt going to use the exact same rope i used to tow the car, was going to buy a new length of it, but good call and good advice. Now, here's the fun part, i hit the harbor freight website, since the rope had no specs on it at the store, and... decided against buying any more of it... turns out the ratings are much lower than i had thought, and quite frankly i am amazed that it held up to towing the suburban.... here's the specs 75 FT. x 3/8'' POLY ROPE, CAMOUFLAGE Strength braided 514 lbs. tensile strength Working load, 244 lbs. definately not something i would trust my life with...

Servo

Re: importance of rope
<Reply # 14 on 4/13/2004 6:52 PM >

Posted by trintek
514 lbs. tensile strength
Working load, 244 lbs.

Especially since when you fall and then try to stop, the faster you stop, the more force you're going to be putting on the rope (F=ma, large acceleration means larger force for the same mass)... very easy to go over that 244 lb if you already weigh 150 or so. That's only a factor of safety of 2 from their given tensile strength (which may also have a FoS, but there's no way to know). I would probably go with a much more generous factor of safety for the rated load due to possible defects and other uncertainties. This is just good engineering sense.

(edit: I really can't spel today)
[last edit 4/13/2004 6:51 PM by Servo - edited 2 times]

RevSM location: South Central Texas \| \|	Re: importance of rope <Reply # 15 on 4/13/2004 7:57 PM >

	I forgot the specifics but actually the rope that I have is not the twisted nylon rope but rather very similar to standard climbing rope with the braided sheath and the inner core. I don’t know about the twisted kind, I’ve never used it before. If you don’t decide to get it before UTEX I can show you mine or even take you to Banana Bay. I might have some time if you want to come up before UTEX too but probably not until May. Tetanus for Breakfast! http://www.shatteredshutter.com

Plytheman location: Lawrence, Massachusetts Obey The Deer \| \|	Re: importance of rope <Reply # 16 on 4/13/2004 8:20 PM >

	Chaffing gear, my friends. =D Just about anything will work too... If you need a quick fix, duct tape will do the trick. I work at a sailing club, and although I really don't know as much about the rope types as I should (but I know some good knots =D) We use chaffing gear alot with the boats. Flexible pipeing works great, but if you want a short term quick fix, a few layers of duct tape will do the trick. Thats what we use on our docklines and anchor stuff when we need it and we've never had trouble with it. Again, its a quick fix that will get you through a climb, but using the same tape more than once or twice isn't too smart... BTW, if anyone knows a website with tutorials about rock climbing ascenders anddescenders, I would appreciate it as its been a while since I've climbed and I want to refresh my memory... I'm achin, I'm shakin, I'm breakin, Like Humans Do!! -Byrne

Rockman1 Noble Donor location: Depends on the time of day Gender: Male \|	Re: importance of rope <Reply # 17 on 4/14/2004 12:16 AM >

	The common cheap "yellow" rope found everywhere is usually polypropylene, great for basic marine use as it floats, but also no good at all for ascending / rapelling. The older "manilla" ropes improved in strength the first time they were moistened but subsequent exposure to water will weaken them over time. Choose a rope with aramid fibres and as mentioned buy a static rope over dynamic rope. For longevity store ropes in "rope bags" in a well ventillated dry location out of the sun. Be wary of keeping them in the trunk of your car, gas fumes and residue can decay rope fibres over time. Never store your ropes with knots in them, it causes mushy or weak spots. Just a little more info for thought. As far as knots go... lern the family of figure eights and perhaps an "alpine butterfly". Gettin' close to an overload...everyday's a no win situation..

Urban Caver Donor location: San Antonio, Tx Gender: Male quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur \| \| \| \|	Re: importance of rope <Reply # 18 on 4/14/2004 1:23 AM >

	Plytheman: http://www.tradgirl.com/climbing_faq/ http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Trails/8700/ http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/VerticalHome.shtml RevSM: I probably wont be picking it up before utex, the majority of my spendable cash at the moment is paying off bills and fixing up stuff on the jeep. edit- fixed spelling [last edit 4/14/2004 3:29 AM by Urban Caver - edited 1 times]

MacGyver

location:
St Paul, Minnesota
Gender: Male

"Someone go find me a paperclip, a D-cell battery, and a cheese grater"

Re: importance of rope
<Reply # 19 on 4/14/2004 2:42 AM >

Posted by Rockman1
For longevity store ropes in "rope bags" in a well ventillated dry location out of the sun.

It is generally better for ropes to be exposed to air while stored instead of sealed in a bag. Rope bags are mainly intended to protect the rope while it is in transit and provide a clean spot to stuff the rope if you have to pack up in a wet or dirty place. I store my rope in my bedroom closet, usually hung from the closet pole. The important thing, as mentioned, is to make sure the storage area is dry, not too hot, and out of major sunlight. Odd temperature/humidity isn't good for ropes, and the UV rays from sunlight break down nylon.

Be wary of keeping them in the trunk of your car, gas fumes and residue can decay rope fibres over time.

Good advice, but the explanation isn't quite correct. Tests by rope manufacturers have shown that petrolium products (gasoline, motor oil, grease, vasalene, etc.) doesn't seem to have any effect on the physical strength of nylon.

The real threat to your rope is acid. Storing nylon climbing equipment in the trunk of your car with a spare car battery will cause a fast an almost undetectable death of the rope. The acidic fumes in the air eat away at the construction of the rope and can cause it to lose alarming amounts of it's strength.

This doesn't mean it's a good idea to store your rope in a pool of used motor oil. Even if something hasn't been proven to damage climbing rope, it can have other unpleasant side effects. a slimy drippy rope soaked with oil will not be any fun to use the next time you have to rappel down it. Generally speaking, keep your gear away from any unusual substances, liquids, or fumes and you should be fine.

The two main figure eight variants are the most useful knots you can know. If you plan on climbing standing lines and don't know how to use ascenders, the prussik is your new best friend. I also recommend knowing how to tie and use a few variants of the bowline because of how much easier it is to untie than the figure eight after it has been tightened. Aw heck; here's a brief breakdown of the important knots in my opinion:

The figure eight and it's several variants are the main knots basic climbing requires. Know them well.

The double bowline is a great alternative to the figure eight when you want to tie in or make a loop at the end of a rope. It's easier to untie and looks really cool, but make sure you back it up properly.

Use a double fisherman knot to tie lengths of cord into prussik loops.

Climbing ropes without ascenders is most easily done using a pair of prussik loops attached to the standing rope with prussik knots.

[last edit 4/14/2004 4:56 PM by MacGyver - edited 1 times]

Like a fiend with his dope / a drunkard his wine / a man will have lust for the lure of the mine

"If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent."

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