Infiltration

EinZweiDrei location: NJ Gender: Male I've had so much on my mind -- I was so glad when I died. \| \|	Respirator Risk/Reward < on 2/17/2004 10:55 PM >

	The infallably effective respirators of the half or full size seem to me incredibly bulky - for some, absurdly impractical, I'd wager - and also, probably not needed for, I'd think, the majority of sites. What do you people find works as far as respirators, regarding using a full mask, using a small paper surgical mask, or using nothing at all? Sure, better safe than sorry and all, but, really, who doesn't like that feeling of travelling light? Also, is there some sort of [most likely absurdly expensive] ubermensche respirator that filters asbestos and doesn't take up a silly amount of space?

Jester location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada Gender: Male Always just out of sight... \| \|	Re: Respirator Risk/Reward <Reply # 1 on 2/17/2004 11:09 PM >

	The asbestos rated respirators from Most hardware stores are really not all that large... I carry two in a reasonably small side pouch. It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf.

Shane Moderator location: Bronx, NY Gender: Male \| \| \| \| \|	Re: Respirator Risk/Reward <Reply # 2 on 2/17/2004 11:18 PM >

	I've been doing this for a while, and I intend to keep doing it for many years to come. The slight inconvenience/bulkiness of a respirator is most definately worth not getting cancer or mesothilioma in 30 years. They fit just fine inside a cargo pocket or backpack. I don't bring it along everywhere, and if I'm not wearing that, I don't wear anything at all (the paper masks do nothing for asbestos). "Because there's no possibility of real disaster, real risk, we're left with no chance for real salvation. Real elation. Real excitement. Joy. Discovery. Invention. The laws that keep us safe, these same laws condemn us to boredom. Without access to true chaos, we'll never have true peace. Unless everything can get worse, it won't get any better." -Chuck Palahniuk

clark location: Illinois Gender: Male \| \| \|	Re: Respirator Risk/Reward <Reply # 3 on 2/17/2004 11:46 PM >

	i dunno. respirators are more a comfort than a health necessity. though the nonscientific world at large has made up its mind, i remind everyone that incontrivertible tests proving the carcinogenic effects of asbestos have never gone beyond saying that the results are inconclusive. futhermore, asbestos is not a magic bullet. it takes regular, extended exposure before measurable amounts of it get into your lungs. while you may kick up a lot of dust and dirt in your travels, unless you decide to use the insulation as a punching bag, your odds of getting dangerous amounts of it airborn are slim to none. for me, the bigger problem is the occasional sinus infections i land when i suck in too much dust in a weekend. but i'm honestly not worried about asbestos exposure. perhaps if i'm still doing this in 5 or 10 years, i'll decide it's worth it, but right now a filter just doesn't seem that necessary to me. /Brendan

kowalski \|	Re: Respirator Risk/Reward <Reply # 4 on 2/18/2004 12:29 AM >

	And in 5-10 years you will have had 5-10 years worth of exposure every few weekends or whatever. The problem with using the occasional exposure argument is that what we're talking about is not a one-time exposure here, we're talking about a hobby that, depending on what we're exploring, exposes us to the stuff repeatedly and consistently over a long period of time (unless you're some fair-weather explorer who is going to get bored of this in a few months and move on to some other thing to toss your free time into). Is it the same as someone working in a building with loose/damaged asbestos for a period of years? No. Is it the same as someone who spent their life mining or processing asbestos? Of course not. But are our chances of contracting asbestos-related ailments raised if we repeatedly spend a few hours exploring asbestos-contaminated structures? Absolutely. It's up to every explorer to individually assess whether they should respond to this increased risk or ignore it. Last week the Wraiths and I spent some time in an old institutional building being prepared for demolition. The demo crews had torn the asbestos insulation out of the ceilings and it littered the floors, with its dust undoubtedly present throughout the atmosphere of the structure. You can bet we wore respirators. Last summer, I explored a steam tunnel passage at a university during an asbestos abatement project, passing more than a hundred bags of removed insulation and knowing the place was contaminated heavily enough to require airlocks and fans to ensure positive pressure. I wouldn't have done it without a mask. The half-masks are quite comfortable and easy to breathe through. I've never had any complaints with them.

'Dukes Noble Donor Gender: Male At least someone llikes me \| \|	Re: Respirator Risk/Reward <Reply # 5 on 2/18/2004 1:06 AM >

	Respirators make you feel like a dumbass. You're not going to go into a site enough times to get cancer or lead poisoning. I guess there are a few people here who might eat lead paint chips but that's another matter. They also make photography a pain in the ass. One thing I will say is that from a psychological point of view, they will remove the stink of a bad location, mold, or otherwise. Some of the downstate hotels around NY are so bad, even in winter, I "felt" that it was hard to breathe after entry, just because of the combination of smell/moisture. I went to Woodworkers Warehouse for the Going out sale, but they were out of the cartridge style. I think it's a comfort thing. Wear it if you want , but I don't think safety is the issue, I think its to remove any distractions. Summary: I would wear one if I "felt" better off with it than without it. Dukes content edit [last edit 2/18/2004 1:08 AM by 'Dukes - edited 1 times] I got your tour winner right here pussies, at least he'd crash out trying.

Capone location: London, Ontario Gender: Male UEL \| \|	Re: Respirator Risk/Reward <Reply # 6 on 2/18/2004 1:30 AM >

	I use a respirator. It "makes me feel better" knowing that even though I may not be inhaling dangerous amounts of asbestos, I'm still being protected. Plus as others have said it filters out all the dust, mold, and various other nasty shit that can be present. That said, I don't wear it everywhere. Usually only to locations I know for a fact (or strongly suspect) contain asbestos or dangerous levels of other things which can lead to respiratory problems. So there I was, in this creepy old hallway...

clark location: Illinois Gender: Male \| \| \|	Re: Respirator Risk/Reward <Reply # 7 on 2/18/2004 3:31 AM >

	kowal, your points are noted. but still, as i said, positive proof that asbestos is a cancer-causing agent is yet to be found. that doesn't mean it's a risk worth taking, but it's just something to think about. secondly, if i knew i was going to be wading in asbestos, then yes, i might reconsider, but not because i am necessarily worried about losing a lung down the road somewhere. unless you're sneaking in while the crews are on lunch break, odds are the vast majority of it will settle before you're in. asbestos isn't atmospheric dust, it's a generic name given to a number of mined minerals. perhaps i am mistaken, in which case i apologize, but that considered, i am under the impression it does not "hang" in the air indefinitely as some air pollution does, since it is a heavier mineral. also, only very specific types of asbestos are even in question as being potentially dangerous. but the bottom line is, if i was wading through ripped out insulation, which i have yet to do, i'd probably wear a respirator more to avoid the pains involved with fiberglass contact than fear of asbestos. to each his own i guess, but that's just my take on it. and no, i doubt i'll still be as adventurous ten years from now when i'm getting into my 30s and likely to be starting a family. i can hope i will be, but only time will tell. /Brendan

LearnedHand Gender: Male \| \|	Re: Respirator Risk/Reward <Reply # 8 on 2/18/2004 3:59 AM >

	Clark, why would you even take a chance when we're talking about cancer? I wear a respirator with p100 filters and I was wondering how much use these things can handle before they need to be replaced? [last edit 2/18/2004 4:00 AM by LearnedHand - edited 1 times]

Shane

Moderator
location:
Bronx, NY
Gender: Male

Re: Respirator Risk/Reward
<Reply # 9 on 2/18/2004 4:02 AM >

Posted by Equivokal
Clark, why would you even take a chance when we're talking about cancer?

I agree fully, I'd rather look a bit dorky and be slightly inconvenienced than to risk cancer.

I wear a respirator with p100 filters and I was wondering how much use these things can handle before they need to be replaced?

From what I've read you're supposed to wear them until they become difficult to breathe through. They don't have a shelf life like some other types of filters.

"Because there's no possibility of real disaster, real risk, we're left with no chance for real salvation. Real elation. Real excitement. Joy. Discovery. Invention. The laws that keep us safe, these same laws condemn us to boredom. Without access to true chaos, we'll never have true peace. Unless everything can get worse, it won't get any better." -Chuck Palahniuk

-MisfitStyle-

Re: Respirator Risk/Reward
<Reply # 10 on 2/18/2004 4:37 AM >

Posted by 'Dukes
Respirators make you feel like a dumbass. You're not going to go into a site enough times to get cancer or lead poisoning.

No, but if you visit many different sites, it might just be a problem. Especially because there are still so many places where we're unaware as to whether or not there is asbestos.

They also make photography a pain in the ass.

Cancer, I find, would also be a fairly large pain in the ass.

"I feel like I just got in a battle of wits with some kid in a helmet I found licking a window."

Need help? Please use the Contact a Mod forum — I'm slow to see PMs.

clark location: Illinois Gender: Male \| \| \|	Re: Respirator Risk/Reward <Reply # 11 on 2/18/2004 6:24 AM >

	i guess you guys raise good points. i'm trying to offer a well-organized alternative viewpoint, but i'm by no means set in my ways. /Brendan

Uncle Goose

location:
Ghent, Belgium
Gender: Male

The Goose knows best.

Re: Respirator Risk/Reward
<Reply # 12 on 2/18/2004 8:05 AM >

Posted by Equivokal
I wear a respirator with p100 filters and I was wondering how much use these things can handle before they need to be replaced?

The best would be to replace them after every use, but this tend to be expensive. There is no way to tell when a Filter is shot. I'm collecting gasmasks for over 10years now (210 masks in the collection so far) and I still waiting for a good test. If you use it frequently I would say that you change your filter every 3 months.

I always use a fullface British Military S10 mask and since I'm mostly in Camouflage it looks pretty cool

A 1000 days of sorrow can disapear in a split second, it takes only one person to make it happen.

Shane

Moderator
location:
Bronx, NY
Gender: Male

Re: Respirator Risk/Reward
<Reply # 13 on 2/18/2004 3:29 PM >

Posted by Uncle Goose
The best would be to replace them after every use, but this tend to be expensive. There is no way to tell when a Filter is shot. I'm collecting gasmasks for over 10years now (210 masks in the collection so far) and I still waiting for a good test. If you use it frequently I would say that you change your filter every 3 months.

I always use a fullface British Military S10 mask and since I'm mostly in Camouflage it looks pretty cool

Gas mask filters are very different from P100 filters. P100's do not have any kind of protection from gases, it's a "particulate" filters as such don't have an exact limited life. The exception to this is when there are oil aerosols present, these cause the filters to loose their effectiveness and will not make them harder to breathe through. If you aren't in an environment where oil aerosols are present, they can be used until they become hard to breathe through or are damaged. Here is is straight from the CDC(http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/respupdt.html):

The current NIOSH service-time-limit recommendations for nonpowered particulate filter respirators are that filter elements should be replaced at the following frequencies:

All filters. The service life of all filters is limited by considerations of hygiene, damage, and breathing resistance. All filters should be replaced whenever they are damaged, soiled, or causing noticeably increased breathing resistance.

P-series filters should be used and reused in accordance with the manufacturer's time-use limitation recommendations when oil aerosols are present. P-series filters should be used and reused subject only to considerations of hygiene, damage, and increased breathing resistance if oil aerosols are not present.

edit: spelling
[last edit 2/18/2004 3:29 PM by Shane - edited 1 times]

Jester location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada Gender: Male Always just out of sight... \| \|	Re: Respirator Risk/Reward <Reply # 14 on 2/18/2004 3:44 PM >

	Asbestos particles are so small, when airborne, they don't settle quickly like dust. Besides that point, as soon as you step into a place with asbestos particles present, you will very quickly have the air you are breathing full of asbestos particles. Pixie has some medical training, and in her courses they got to look at the asbestos health issue fairly in depth. Because the asbestos generally takes years to cause cancer, it's not something they do a 3 month study on and give you your instant gratification that you can go and snort asbestos particles. But, what is known clearly is that the asbestos particles do catch throughout your lung tissue and cause irritation. Of course the amount that a person has attached to their lung tissue is a determining factor, but each person is different and will have different tolerances. It seems completely illogical to think that all the cases of cancer linked to this are wrong, and that you will be fine just because you want to believe you will... Have any of you noticed in any of your papers in the last few months, that there were some asbestos class action suits being filed for people who've contracted cancer related to asbestos exposure ? I personally find very little discomfort carrying a respirator with me when going to a site that I suspect will have an asbestos problem, and don't mind wearing it once I'm there at all. The building I took Kowalski to last week had just had all the pipes ripped out, prepping for it's demo. There was piles of asbestos everywhere, ripped apart and strewn all over. We were walking over and through heaps of it. There is no way I would have done that without a respirator. It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf.

Ferret

location:
Toronto

Re: Respirator Risk/Reward
<Reply # 15 on 2/18/2004 3:59 PM >

Posted by clark
kowal, your points are noted. but still, as i said, positive proof that asbestos is a cancer-causing agent is yet to be found. that doesn't mean it's a risk worth taking, but it's just something to think about. secondly, if i knew i was going to be wading in asbestos, then yes, i might reconsider, but not because i am necessarily worried about losing a lung down the road somewhere. unless you're sneaking in while the crews are on lunch break, odds are the vast majority of it will settle before you're in. asbestos isn't atmospheric dust, it's a generic name given to a number of mined minerals. perhaps i am mistaken, in which case i apologize, but that considered, i am under the impression it does not "hang" in the air indefinitely as some air pollution does, since it is a heavier mineral. also, only very specific types of asbestos are even in question as being potentially dangerous. but the bottom line is, if i was wading through ripped out insulation, which i have yet to do, i'd probably wear a respirator more to avoid the pains involved with fiberglass contact than fear of asbestos. to each his own i guess, but that's just my take on it. and no, i doubt i'll still be as adventurous ten years from now when i'm getting into my 30s and likely to be starting a family. i can hope i will be, but only time will tell.

Actually, you're off on several points.
Firstly, the way asbestos causes cancer is very well documented and studied, as it is rather unique in that it is a non-chemical cause (asbestos is almost completely chemically inert).
Secondly, the name is not generic, but referes to a specific mineral compound in a specific form.
Thirdly and most dangerously, asbestos dust does suspend in the air, that is, it will hang for a very long time in the air. Humidity will help it settle, but in a dry environment, there will be airborn asbestos dust even if the area has not been disturbed for monthes.

Krenta

location:
Saint Paul, MN

Nope, wasn't me.

Re: Respirator Risk/Reward
<Reply # 16 on 2/18/2004 11:27 PM >

I'd just like to mention that, while not as "scary", perhaps, as asbestos, pigeon shit is just as bad (actually, slightly worse - much lower exposure threshold) to breathe. Thankfully, the stuff tends to, um, stay where it lands, but if it's dry and getting torn up (as during, say, demolition/remodeling of a vacant building) I'd be more concerned of inhaling pigeon droppings than asbestos.

From Cryptococcosis Mould:

Cryptococcosis manifests itself most commonly as meningitis but in recent years many cases of pulmonary disease have been recognized...

The source of human infection is not clear. This organism is ubiquitous, especially in areas like abandoned buildings contaminated with pigeon droppings. The portal of entry is the respiratory system. Evidence is developing which indicates that the initial exposure may be many years prior to the manifestation of disease. The organism can be sequestered for this time.

Infection may be subacute or chronic. The highly fatal meningoencephalitis caused by C. neoformans has a prolonged evolution of several months. The patients symptoms may begin with vision problems and headache, which then progress to delirium, nuchal rigidity leading to coma and death unless the physician is thinking about cryptococcus and does a spinal tap for diagnosis and institutes aggressive therapy. The CSF is examined for its characteristic chemistry (elevated protein and decreased glucose), cells (usually monocytes), and evidence of the organism...

Just thought I'd mention that.

Respirators may be geeky, and may make photography "inconvenient", but meningitis and pulmonary problems are a big price to pay for a couple of photographs, IMO.

[Mod edit: Fixed quote tag. -Shane]
[last edit 2/19/2004 2:31 AM by Shane - edited 1 times]

Have Speed Graphic, Will Travel.

'Dukes

Noble Donor
Gender: Male

At least someone llikes me

Re: Respirator Risk/Reward
<Reply # 17 on 2/19/2004 2:46 AM >

Posted by Jester
Asbestos particles are so small, when airborne, they don't settle quickly like dust. Besides that point, as soon as you step into a place with asbestos particles present, you will very quickly have the air you are breathing full of asbestos particles.

Pixie has some medical training, and in her courses they got to look at the asbestos health issue fairly in depth. Because the asbestos generally takes years to cause cancer, it's not something they do a 3 month study on and give you your instant gratification that you can go and snort asbestos particles. But, what is known clearly is that the asbestos particles do catch throughout your lung tissue and cause irritation. Of course the amount that a person has attached to their lung tissue is a determining factor, but each person is different and will have different tolerances.

It seems completely illogical to think that all the cases of cancer linked to this are wrong, and that *you* will be fine just because you want to believe you will... Have any of you noticed in any of your papers in the last few months, that there were some asbestos class action suits being filed for people who've contracted cancer related to asbestos exposure ? I personally find very little discomfort carrying a respirator with me when going to a site that I suspect will have an asbestos problem, and don't mind wearing it once I'm there at all.

The building I took Kowalski to last week had just had all the pipes ripped out, prepping for it's demo. There was piles of asbestos everywhere, ripped apart and strewn all over. We were walking over and through heaps of it. There is no way I would have done that without a respirator.

I was just saying earlier that a lot of guys wear masks basically because it smells bad. My old elementary school was full of the stuff. Difference was it wasn't disturbed. Jester, I wouldn't step foot in that building. I knew guys who used to work asbestos removal.. They had belt worn respirators, wore clean suits. I wouldn't go wading through piles of asbestos, ever. Usually they must tent the room they are working on. Are you sure it wasn't just drywall or standard insulation of some kind? They're pretty strict with that.
Funny side note: the guys with the hip worn respirators used to remove the filtration elements on the weekend and use the box as a carbueretor for smoking.. uhh. tobacco! Let that mask fill right up with fragrant ..uh marlboro smoke.
Dukes

I got your tour winner right here pussies, at least he'd crash out trying.

Jester

location:
Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male

Always just out of sight...

Re: Respirator Risk/Reward
<Reply # 18 on 2/19/2004 5:51 AM >

Posted by 'Dukes
Jester, I wouldn't step foot in that building. I knew guys who used to work asbestos removal.. They had belt worn respirators, wore clean suits. I wouldn't go wading through piles of asbestos, ever. Usually they must tent the room they are working on. Are you sure it wasn't just drywall or standard insulation of some kind? They're pretty strict with that.

I've been through that building already, prior to them beginning to strip them of salvage, and all the stuff all over the ground now, was around the pipes, and tagged with the AIM, NAB labels marking it as asbestos...

I certainly wouldn't like to spend a lot of time in there, even with the respirators. We were in that building maybe 30 minutes, and that was enough...

It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf.

Ferret

location:
Toronto

Re: Respirator Risk/Reward
<Reply # 19 on 2/19/2004 3:00 PM >

While we're on airborne risks other than asbestos, let's not forget histoplasmosis, another nasty little fungus found in bird and bat droppings.

From Centers for Disease Control

What is histoplasmosis?

Histoplasmosis is a disease caused by the fungus Histoplasma capsulatum. Its symptoms vary greatly, but the disease primarily affect the lungs. Occasionally, other organs are affected. This form of the disease is called disseminated histoplasmosis, and it can be fatal if untreated.

How is someone infected with H. capsulatum?

H. capsulatum grows in soil and material contaminated with bat or bird droppings. Spores become airborne when contaminated soil is disturbed. Breathing the spores causes infection. The disease is not transmitted from an infected person to someone else.

What are the symptoms of histoplasmosis?

Most infected persons have no apparent ill effects. The acute respiratory disease is characterized by respiratory symptoms, a general ill feeling, fever, chest pains, and a dry or nonproductive cough. Distinct patterns may be seen on a chest x-ray. Chronic lung disease resembles tuberculosis and can worsen over months or years. The disseminated form is fatal unless treated.

There are alot of nasty things waiting for us in some of the places we go.

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