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Infiltration Forums > Archived UE Tutorials, Lessons, and Useful Info > Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer (Viewed 2953 times)
Dokk 


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Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 40 on 2/21/2007 3:12 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by systemx29
I have 2 questions.

First off,say im shooting an an abandoned building on ACTIVE psych center grounds. am i breaching patient privacy? i should be allowed to shoot,as long as im not showing where patients live,correct?


First off, you should stay away from an active psych center, it's just not cool.

Secondly, i have had run-ins with mall security after a trip for example,where they demanded my cf card,obviously,they werent getting it from me,but next time, how do i go about telling them they cant have it without a court order,without backing myself into a corner?




First thing you do with mall security is to remember that they are mall SECURITY not a registered law enforcement agency. They can ask you to leave the property and then escort you off the property and they can detain you until the police arrive if you've been really really bad btu that's it. If mall security approaches you cooperate with them as much as possible. If you want, you can offer to show them photos that you've taken to make friends with them and put them at ease that you are not up to trouble. If they tell you that they are confiscating ANY of your property, ask then what ground they have for such a demand. (They will have no legal grounds for confiscation) If they insist, tell them you are calling the police and reporting a theft of private property. Ask them if they are arresting or detaining you. If they say no (which, if they are smart, they will) ask them what they plan to do if you try to leave. If they say they will prevent you from leaving in any way, ask them to call the police or you can if you have a cell phone and report to the police EVERYTHING that has transpired. Report to the police officer attempted theft of private property, attempted kidnapping, and unlawful arrest. Make sure that all of this transpires in front of other shoppers in the mall. Never go back to the office to sort things out. Always sort things out in front of witnesses. Once you are in thier office, you have no witnesses and they can claim anything happened.

If you are friendly with mall security officers, they will most likely be very nice and friendly with you and just say, "the owners don't allow photography on property so don't do it any more." and allow you to finish shopping or leave. Remember, a mall is private property and owners can prohibit photography on site but that doesn't mean you can't take photos from the sidewalk across the street if you want. If they get unfriendly or rough with you or insist on confiscating your photos, call the cops or ask them to. At that point they have to but hopefully it won't get that far.

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Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 41 on 2/21/2007 3:50 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by Dokk
They can ask you to leave the property and then escort you off the property and they can detain you until the police arrive if you've been really really bad


You do understand that this is useless nonsense, right? What exactly is the legal definition of really bad?

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Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 42 on 2/21/2007 6:41 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by Dokk
They can ask you to leave the property and then escort you off the property and they can detain you until the police arrive if you've been really really bad btu that's it.


"Excuse me, but you're being really, really bad."

Um, I think you might have had a run in with a stripper cop.



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Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 43 on 2/21/2007 6:47 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
"really bad" isn't that the fun kind of girl?

Municipal trespass is a real arrest; just because your issued a ticket you are still technically under arrest; the cop can take you in if they choose to. They can also obtain a search warrant to seize your memory cards, nice and legal.
They will give back the cards with the images intact, however if your committing a crime at the time, like home invasion, I doubt that would be the case.

Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
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Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 44 on 2/24/2007 2:27 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by ExKa|iBuR
Good info. But, keep in mind, there is nothing to stop a Police Officer from demanding that you delete your pics, or get arrested. They could also smash your camera.. Good luck proving it was them in court.

The more you post the more I question your grip on reality!
Where do you work?
What reality are you living in?
Cops have no such right.
Property is property.
A court could force you to delete your images.
Images are property and so is a camera.
A cop has NO right to destroy property.
That would be tantamount to telling a drunk driver he had to push his car over a cliff.


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Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 45 on 2/24/2007 3:32 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by DevilC

The more you post the more I question your grip on reality!
Where do you work?
What reality are you living in?
Cops have no such right.
Property is property.
A court could force you to delete your images.
Images are property and so is a camera.
A cop has NO right to destroy property.
That would be tantamount to telling a drunk driver he had to push his car over a cliff.


Alright, well when you have a run in with the police, I'll be very interested how you make out when you tell them what they can and cannot do.

You're 100% correct. The officer has ZERO right to destroy your property, be it digital or physical - we couldn't agree more about that. However, there is also absolutely NOTHING stopping an officer from using as much intimidation as he/she wants to in order to convince you to delete them yourself. Something like "If you delete them, we'll be done here. If you don't, you're under arrest" would be highly likely, and it's happened numerous times to numerous people.

That said, if a Police Officer does something which isn't legal you'd have a pretty hard time proving it. Let's say you say/do something that REALLY gets under an officer's skin. If he/she were to do something stupid (and illegal) such as smash your camera, you'd have a VERY difficult time proving it in court unless you had several people see it and testify as such. If you were caught trespassing, you're already guilty and already a "criminal" in the eyes of the law. So now suppose you went to court and the issue of your broken camera came up. The judge would look at you as someone who is already breaking the law and are making excuses/stories to get out of any trouble you might be in.

Like I said before...a Police Officer can do just about anything he/she wants as long as it doesn't leave a bruise or break a bone. Note: "can do" doesn't mean "legally can do", it means "can get away with doing" - there's a big difference there. I'm not talking out my a$$ on that, I know quite a number of Police Officers who have all told me pretty much the exact same thing. One good friend of mine (Police Officer) told me he pulled somebody over for speeding, when the guy gave him a hard time "somehow" one of his tail lights got broken, and another ticket was issued. Legal? Hell no. But good luck proving otherwise to a judge. The sad reality is that our legal system is heavily biased towards the state (that is, the police) and if you think for one second that everybody is treated the same in the eyes of the law, you are VERY sadly mistaken.

I speak from experience, not from "book smarts", so to speak. I've been on both sides of the coin as the guy getting the shaft and as the guy doing the shafting, so I can speak pretty good about the realities of this kind of thing. And no, I'm not a lawyer (thank god).


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Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 46 on 2/24/2007 9:28 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by ExKa|iBuR

Like I said before...a Police Officer can do just about anything he/she wants as long as it doesn't leave a bruise or break a bone. Note: "can do" doesn't mean "legally can do", it means "can get away with doing" - there's a big difference there. I'm not talking out my a$$ on that, I know quite a number of Police Officers who have all told me pretty much the exact same thing. One good friend of mine (Police Officer) told me he pulled somebody over for speeding, when the guy gave him a hard time "somehow" one of his tail lights got broken, and another ticket was issued. Legal? Hell no. But good luck proving otherwise to a judge. The sad reality is that our legal system is heavily biased towards the state (that is, the police) and if you think for one second that everybody is treated the same in the eyes of the law, you are VERY sadly mistaken.



First it never pays to piss off a cop, especially if he's arresting you!

There's a lot of grey areas here.

Police and Feds can seize film and memory cards if your arrested. That's not destroying. I had that happen. It was more a misunderstanding, but at first the cops were really hyped up for me. Later when they realized how much the equipment was worth, and that I wasn't doing anything more than taking pictures, they were sort of breathing a sigh of relief that they had acted professionally in my take down. They didn't damaged any equipment, but they did review my memory cards. At that point it was a more friendly encounter, and I supplied the software to view the RAWS. The chief made a copy with my blessing and gave them all back. I still had to pay some fines for "oversights" on my part, but all in all these cops were ok guys once they figured out I wasn't giving them shit. In fact they were downright nice in the end.

Had I given them a shitty attitude, things would have been much more expensive, been a lot harder, and it would have taken a lot longer. Even if you could sue them for wrongful arrest and win that suit, is it worth the risk and all the nerve racking trouble it causes? In the end that would also hurt the community.

Most cops are ok people as long as you don't put the into a position where they HAVE to arrest you, and as long as you show a bit of respect. Compliance is one of the ways they gauge if they'll have a repeat call or more trouble during an arrest; they don't like that!

Remember: good criminal trial lawyers aren't cheap. The cops know this, and sitting in court is part of their job. You don't get paid to do this!

If your shooting professionally you may want to be more aggressive about your rights on public property and such. Most of us aren't making a living doing this, so it's hard to justify legal expenses to do it!

Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
Deuterium 


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Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 47 on 2/25/2007 12:25 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by The Found Artists


My original thought was blue laws... but as it turns out - there was an issue at one of the state hospitals and so the legislature addressed the issue (back in the 1890's) with a statute that resolved this particular issue and was legislated broadly as well so that this procedure could be applied to other facilities.

The irony... same year... the town in which my office is located... has enacted a rule that fines you 25 cents if you fell asleep with your shoes on.

Go figure.


Sounds like urban legends to me, much like detonating a nuclear device in Chico, CA is a $500 fine.

Would you provide us with the actual code, so we can look it up on findlaw.com?

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Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 48 on 2/25/2007 5:07 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by Dokk
First thing you do with mall security is to remember that they are mall SECURITY not a registered law enforcement agency. They can ask you to leave the property and then escort you off the property and they can detain you until the police arrive if you've been really really bad btu that's it.


Maybe down there. Up here in Canada, a security guard has exactly the same power as a police officer when conducting an arrest. That is to say, they can use as much force is as necessary, you can be charged with assaulting an officer if you strike them, you can be charged with resisting arrest if you resist - all that kind of thing.

For all intents and purposes, in Canada, when a security guard places you under arrest, you may as well pretend it's an arrest by a Police Officer, because their authority to do so is IDENTICAL to that of a Police Officer, and they have as much power as a Police Officer to ensure you get arrested and don't move (this includes using an A.S.P. on your ass if you try and fight). The ONLY difference is that once a Security Guard has arrested you, he/she must turn you over to the Police. That's it.

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Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 49 on 2/25/2007 11:31 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by ExKa|iBuR


Maybe down there. Up here in Canada, a security guard has exactly the same power as a police officer when conducting an arrest. That is to say, they can use as much force is as necessary, you can be charged with assaulting an officer if you strike them, you can be charged with resisting arrest if you resist - all that kind of thing.

For all intents and purposes, in Canada, when a security guard places you under arrest, you may as well pretend it's an arrest by a Police Officer, because their authority to do so is IDENTICAL to that of a Police Officer, and they have as much power as a Police Officer to ensure you get arrested and don't move (this includes using an A.S.P. on your ass if you try and fight). The ONLY difference is that once a Security Guard has arrested you, he/she must turn you over to the Police. That's it.


Exactly ExKa.

Security Officers have pretty much the same powers as the owner of the property. And yes, they have to contact the Police when it is safe to do so and to turn you over to the Police immediately when the Police arrive.

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Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 50 on 2/26/2007 1:37 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I can't stand ambulance chasers. Go schill somewhere else you blood sucker and take your shit law degree with you; don't you have some major company to shake down?

Where you from Manhattan? That makes sense.




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Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 51 on 2/26/2007 1:53 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by micro


And that's why you don't go to Lakeview on a Saturday. Also, getting dressed up as workers using the crew's own protective gear probably wasn't the best idea either. Did you think that wearing a full-body white suit would help make you blend in with your environment?




I agree, Lakeview on a Saturday is a bad idea. We didn't use the crew's own protective gear, we used our own. Yes, the full-body white suits helped us blend in with the environment since there was a two inch cover of snow everywhere and the highest chance of us getting seen was outside the building. Since at the time we were under the impression that the building is abandoned with nobody on the grounds, we didn't really need to blend in once inside; we needed protection from asbestos, and in case of an accident or emergency, we can remove the suits in about 10 seconds. If we would have changed into a black outfit once inside, the outcome would have been the same, but we left the white ones on 'cause we thought we looked funny.

Cam, tripod, and lenses. Industrial Decay.
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Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 52 on 2/26/2007 2:00 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by blackhawk
My Pony, fucking around at construction sites IS asking for it.

Big surprise.



Yeah, we thought the site was not active, when we noticed that there's a work crew present we started to leave but first, my fellow explorers had to go get a couple of bags of gear stashed away in a room. Didn't want to take a chance of leaving all that gear behind, but it costed us precious time and of course the ticket.

Cam, tripod, and lenses. Industrial Decay.
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Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 53 on 2/28/2007 3:37 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by ExKa|iBuR


Maybe down there. Up here in Canada, a security guard has exactly the same power as a police officer when conducting an arrest. That is to say, they can use as much force is as necessary, you can be charged with assaulting an officer if you strike them, you can be charged with resisting arrest if you resist - all that kind of thing.

For all intents and purposes, in Canada, when a security guard places you under arrest, you may as well pretend it's an arrest by a Police Officer, because their authority to do so is IDENTICAL to that of a Police Officer, and they have as much power as a Police Officer to ensure you get arrested and don't move (this includes using an A.S.P. on your ass if you try and fight). The ONLY difference is that once a Security Guard has arrested you, he/she must turn you over to the Police. That's it.


Ugh, ASP's are illegal are they not, even for law enforcement personnel? SO few security firms even have regular batons (as it costs so much to licence/train people to use them). I'd like to know what province they are legal in.

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Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 54 on 2/28/2007 4:57 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Here in Ontario, they're 100% legal. They just have to be licensed.

Most security companies are licensed for both the ASP and a PR24 baton, as are most law enforcement officials.

There's actually no law preventing an ordinary citizen from carrying them either. However, if you use one, you will be charged with assault with a weapon, as both the PR24 and the ASP are considered weapons of opportunity, meaning you can carry them all you want, but the second you use one - even for self defence - you're commiting assault with a weapon - unless you're specifically licensed to use one.

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Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 55 on 2/28/2007 8:36 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by ExKa|iBuR
Here in Ontario, they're 100% legal. They just have to be licensed.

Most security companies are licensed for both the ASP and a PR24 baton, as are most law enforcement officials.

There's actually no law preventing an ordinary citizen from carrying them either. However, if you use one, you will be charged with assault with a weapon, as both the PR24 and the ASP are considered weapons of opportunity, meaning you can carry them all you want, but the second you use one - even for self defence - you're commiting assault with a weapon - unless you're specifically licensed to use one.


Hmm thats interesting.... I didn't realize you could even buy them here.

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Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 56 on 3/1/2007 2:23 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by ExKa|iBuR
. . . if you use one, you will be charged with assault with a weapon, as both the PR24 and the ASP are considered weapons of opportunity, meaning you can carry them all you want, but the second you use one - even for self defence - you're commiting assault with a weapon. . .

How awesome is it to live in a land where you have no right of self defense?
That is absolutely hideous. Talk about a violation of BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS!


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Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 57 on 3/1/2007 2:34 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Mobile
 
Who says you can't defend yourself? You just can't use a weapon. It's the same as using a gun to defend yourself...if you do it, you're going to jail, plain and simple.

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Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 58 on 3/1/2007 2:41 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by ExKa|iBuR
Who says you can't defend yourself? You just can't use a weapon. It's the same as using a gun to defend yourself...if you do it, you're going to jail, plain and simple.


Not in the USA.

Most states allow the use of a firearm in self defense against an armed assailant, be it gun or baseball bat outside the home.

PA is very pro resident. I can shoot an intruder in my house even if they are unarmed; the burden of proof is on them.

Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
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Re: Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer
<Reply # 59 on 3/1/2007 2:41 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by ExKa|iBuR
Who says you can't defend yourself?
You just can't use a weapon.
It's the same as using a gun to defend yourself...if you do it, you're going to jail, plain and simple.

You make it sound OK.
That is pretty awful, in fact.
What if you cannot defend yourself?
The average person could not defend themself if I wanted to do them physical harm.
Why should one be limited like that by the state?
And for what reason?
The criminal certainly will not be similarly limited.



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Infiltration Forums > Archived UE Tutorials, Lessons, and Useful Info > Basic Legal Information - From me... I'm an Art Lawyer (Viewed 2953 times)
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