Infiltration

Mark Very Noble Donor location: South Carolina Gender: Male What is a lion, king of the savannah, when hes at the south pole? \|	Self Defense (facts instead of opinions) < on 9/8/2006 7:37 AM >

	I wanted to post this for a while, but I had to dig for these numbers. These numbers I have been told come from the FBI data for 1993. I would assume things haven't changed to much since 1993. This information came from a debate about guns, but I want alot of people here to get a few facts. To many people on here say the would do _____ because they felt it was the safest. Many also have made the argument that they think people who carry guns, knives, etc were more probable to get hurt. Well right now a few of you are going to eat your words. I am not telling you to go buy a gun, or carry five knives, but if your going to make a decision about self defense you should know the numbers. Chances are most of you wont encounter a issue in the building itself but on the way to and from some place. Take what you will from this information and plan your own protection accordingly. "If the threat level goes up its probably because of me." "I am looking for a girl who enjoys headbutting beltbuckles"

DevilC location: Washington, District of Corruption Gender: Male I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their views. \| \|	Re: Self Defense (facts instead of opinions) <Reply # 1 on 9/8/2006 10:23 AM >

	Thank you. Close to 40,000 Americans die each year from gunfire. But this includes 30,862 suicides which may have been completed by other means without a gun available. Of the 10,000 remaining deaths, we can eliminate approximately 1400 as accidental (1994 figure) which gets the total down to 8600 - presumably the number who die by "hostile" gunfire. What we cannot do is weed out the gang-related or drug-related killings or the justifiable homicides where battered spouses kill an abuser and similar situations. Using the 8600 figure, that's 0.0035% of the population. If we consider the 8600 in light of their 3 million gun-carrying civilians per day, then we are facing a yearly "misuse" percentage of less than 0.00008%. That would be a 99.99% safety rate! DESPITE the hype and fear, as the numbers of US citizens carrying handguns legally has risen dramatically, so too has the crime rate fallen just as dramatically. That the US has the worst crime victimization rates in the West is absolutely a myth. Since the bubble of the mid-90s and he end of the crack epidemic our crime rate has fallen to its lowest level since the FBI started keeping uniform records of it 50 years ago. [last edit 9/8/2006 10:44 AM by DevilC - edited 2 times] Science flies you to the Moon. Religion flies you into tall buildings.

Tek-69 location: Philly 'burbs Gender: Male \|	Re: Self Defense (facts instead of opinions) <Reply # 2 on 9/8/2006 11:51 AM >

	I like guns, and I don't know about anywhere else but I know gun violence is up in philly. If I had some loot I'd have a piece, but alack I got no ends, so I got no guns. For those of you that do, just don't let your attacker get your gun an shoot ya, not only does that suck, but it's embarrassing. ---==Keep-Hope-Alive==---

Explorer Zero \| \|	Re: Self Defense (facts instead of opinions) <Reply # 3 on 9/8/2006 12:45 PM >

	Thanks for the facts Mark (and DevilC) but Im predicting this thread gets buried in the Other forum. I have no quarrel with those that choose to be defenseless, its actually better in a big picture sort of way. That being said most of the urban exploring I do indicates going unarmed because: 1. I dont want to escalate a misdemeanor into a felony 2. Dont want to lose my right to carry (see #1. above) 3. I try to avoid situations that might escalate into use of deadly force (backing off when you can safely do so is no disgrace and in most states required before using deadly force) Cold Dead Hands man

fedge location: Gaud Corners, Ontario, Canada Gender: Male you blight up my life™® \| \|	Re: Self Defense (facts instead of opinions) <Reply # 4 on 9/8/2006 1:37 PM >

	Using my closest reference for a big city, Toronto, a city of 2.5 mill which swells to over 5 mill during weekday business hours - and with respect to the families who've lost their own due to guns - under 100 gun deaths/injuries per year is actually not bad odds for a city that big. Now, of course, if I get shot I'll be complaining about the "proliferation of guns in our society". It's all about perspective. You can't have this argument with the mother of 15 year old Jane Creba who was randomly shot while shopping in downtown Toronto the day after Christmas. 18-odd Years Of UER-ing!

desmet When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. \| \| \|	Re: Self Defense (facts instead of opinions) <Reply # 5 on 9/8/2006 2:05 PM >

	Thanks for posting this. Very interesting. I'm a libertarian so I'm all about self defense and opposing gun control, but I've hesitated on carrying a knife. I've heard this kind of info before, but it's good to see it in B&W. Maybe the spyderco will go in the pack this weekend.

DevilC

location:
Washington, District of Corruption
Gender: Male

I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their views.

Re: Self Defense (facts instead of opinions)
<Reply # 6 on 9/8/2006 2:10 PM >

Posted by desmet
Thanks for posting this. Very interesting. I'm a libertarian so I'm all about self defense and opposing gun control, but I've hesitated on carrying a knife. I've heard this kind of info before, but it's good to see it in B&W. Maybe the spyderco will go in the pack this weekend.

Libertarianism = the way forward in the US.
Think 2x about the knife unless you know how to use it. We generally remark that "The man you need a knife to beat is one who can take it from you, and the man who you can successfully use it upon is one whom you could defeat without its aid."

And to Fedge:
Last year 43,500 people were killed in the US by automobiles. Personification is not a legitimate means of debate.
[last edit 9/8/2006 2:12 PM by DevilC - edited 1 times]

Science flies you to the Moon. Religion flies you into tall buildings.

fedge

location:
Gaud Corners, Ontario, Canada
Gender: Male

you blight up my life™®

Re: Self Defense (facts instead of opinions)
<Reply # 7 on 9/8/2006 2:26 PM >

Posted by DevilC
And to Fedge:
Last year 43,500 people were killed in the US by automobiles. Personification is not a legitimate means of debate.

Yes. I agree with you. But after you get hit by a car it's hard not to want to have more of a crackdown on speeders and drnk drivers.

[last edit 9/8/2006 2:29 PM by fedge - edited 1 times]

18-odd Years Of UER-ing!

DevilC

location:
Washington, District of Corruption
Gender: Male

I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their views.

Re: Self Defense (facts instead of opinions)
<Reply # 8 on 9/8/2006 2:57 PM >

Posted by fedgeYes. I agree with you. But after you get hit by a car it's hard not to want to have more of a crackdown on speeders and drnk drivers.

I live in DC. Speeding around the I495 beltway it is impossible not to have your blood pressure increased by careless and reckless drivers chatting away on cell-phones.
I believe that there should be zero tolerance for driving while drunk and that there should be stiff penalties for distracted (driving while talking on a handset of while watching an in-dash movie!) 2 months ago an imbecile distracted by her cellie did $10,000 worth of damage to my car.
None of this has anything to do with guns though.
Sorry to assist in the thread hijacking Mark.

Science flies you to the Moon. Religion flies you into tall buildings.

jasonbirder

Re: Self Defense (facts instead of opinions)
<Reply # 9 on 9/8/2006 3:12 PM >

Well looking at the Rates of injury chart...I can see that compared to carrying no weapon at all, having a gun reduces the risk of injury by a massive 8%...woohoo!!!
Surely that has to be worth all the difficulties and dangers associated with carrying a gun for such a MASSIVE reduction in the risk rate...particularly as I would think it is safe to assume the severity of injury is likely to be higher if guns are involved!
Oh...and look...carrying a knife makes you almost twice as likely to be injured as carrying no weapon at all...

Many also have made the argument that they think people who carry guns, knives, etc were more probable to get hurt

Well on average they are more likely to be hurt aren't they if you compare carrying no weapon vs a mix of carrying guns/carrying knives...
[last edit 9/8/2006 3:15 PM by jasonbirder - edited 1 times]

Mark Very Noble Donor location: South Carolina Gender: Male What is a lion, king of the savannah, when hes at the south pole? \|	Re: Self Defense (facts instead of opinions) <Reply # 10 on 9/8/2006 6:30 PM >

	Alright here is some data ont he data. These are UCR reports, which come from the police departments themselves. The information may not be prefect because some cities don't file, or accidently miss file information. However apparently this info is the best we have. They say give it about a 3-7% rate of error one way or another. "If the threat level goes up its probably because of me." "I am looking for a girl who enjoys headbutting beltbuckles"

blackhawk

This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
Mission Control

UER newbie

Re: Self Defense (facts instead of opinions)
<Reply # 11 on 9/8/2006 10:18 PM >

Posted by jasonbirder
Well looking at the Rates of injury chart...I can see that compared to carrying no weapon at all, having a gun reduces the risk of injury by a massive 8%...woohoo!!!
Surely that has to be worth all the difficulties and dangers associated with carrying a gun for such a MASSIVE reduction in the risk rate...particularly as I would think it is safe to assume the severity of injury is likely to be higher if guns are involved!
Oh...and look...carrying a knife makes you almost twice as likely to be injured as carrying no weapon at all...

Well on average they are more likely to be hurt aren't they if you compare carrying no weapon vs a mix of carrying guns/carrying knives...

Thank you Mark, this is interesting. Some of the stats are surprising; a gun effectiveness/safety ratio is better than others means of defense overall. I would use a combination of methods depending on the encounter. It conforms what I have been taught, mostly be Nam war vets, but others as well. Most times live is pretty slow, not much going on that would make you fear for your life. That quiet is shatter by violence at unpredictable intervals. You had better be ready if you intend to survive intact.

Jasonbirder I think your misreading the stats, first they aren't saying what crimes are being completed. If it's a murder, rape, or assault I'll take my chances with a weapon in my hands rather than saying 'yes sir!' to someone that already intends harm to me. If they are in your house they almost certainly intend to harm you, even kill you.

If you do nothing the crime is more likely to be completed. I say shut them down ASAP.

Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.

Free Baller location: New Jerssey Gender: Male I have a friend in Jesus. Seriously, Jesus ate my friend. It was horrible. \|	Re: Self Defense (facts instead of opinions) <Reply # 12 on 9/8/2006 10:39 PM >

	Awsome, Im very pro guns. And at first thought most would think guns are bad, fools still belive after thought. Trying to win hearts and minds, but willing to splatter them if neccesary.

Geo \|	Re: Self Defense (facts instead of opinions) <Reply # 13 on 9/8/2006 11:39 PM >

	"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

Mark Very Noble Donor location: South Carolina Gender: Male What is a lion, king of the savannah, when hes at the south pole? \|	Re: Self Defense (facts instead of opinions) <Reply # 14 on 9/9/2006 6:54 AM >

	Also realize those numbers might also be more positive for guns, knives and other weapons. Many weapons owners do not report, or lie about the brandishing of weapons because it is illegal to have them. "If the threat level goes up its probably because of me." "I am looking for a girl who enjoys headbutting beltbuckles"

Mark Very Noble Donor location: South Carolina Gender: Male What is a lion, king of the savannah, when hes at the south pole? \|	Re: Self Defense (facts instead of opinions) <Reply # 15 on 9/12/2006 9:29 PM >

	I think this is the first time a thread about weapons, and such hasn't turned into a flame war. "If the threat level goes up its probably because of me." "I am looking for a girl who enjoys headbutting beltbuckles"

Ruck location: Texas Gender: Male \|	Re: Self Defense (facts instead of opinions) <Reply # 16 on 9/20/2006 5:43 PM >

	Good thread. Thanks, Mark. "For the listener, who listens in the snow, And, nothing himself, beholds Nothing that is not there and the nothing that is." ~Wallace Stevens

Infiltration Forums > Archived UE Tutorials, Lessons, and Useful Info > Self Defense (facts instead of opinions) (Viewed 587 times)