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Captain Obvious
    
location:
among the tank farms
Gender: Male
in ur xbox...there are midgets
 |  | Tagging, Murals and other Artish Stuff
< on 7/8/2006 9:33 PM >
|  | | | Tags: No
Murals: Yes
Drain markings: Yes
We've all seen good sites ruined by an illegible Krylon scrawl. It wrecks places that might otherwise be post-apocalyptic. Freedom Tunnel-style murals are something different. If someone is willing to take on the expense, it'd be nice to see them cut out (yeah, right) and saved. Drain marks seem acceptable, i.e. DanB got this far, 7/8/06.
[last edit 7/9/2006 2:32 AM by Captain Obvious - edited 2 times]
Nov. 24, 2007--The city of Cleveland, Ohio, announces that it has developed tactical nuclear weapons, and does not wish to hear any more jokes.
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supaslush
location:
San Diego
Gender: Male
| | Re: Tagging, Murals and other Artish Stuff
<Reply # 1 on 7/9/2006 12:33 AM >
| | | | Although the graf thread has been done before, I'll drop my two cents in the bucket. I agree with the unacceptability of tagging. It does nothing but uglify an area; apparently the palm tree in front of my old house was the property of MS-13. Who knew?
I have more respect for big mural artists. While I don't enjoy their style of art, I recognize the effort that they put into it. That being said, if these guys can somehow acquire tens-to-hundreds of dollars worth of spray-paint, couldn't they somehow acquire a canvas rather than mark somebody elses stuff up? Get some mortar and bricks and build your own damn wall to paint!
Tunnel markings are cool. It's cool to see that somebody was doing the same thing as you were except X number of years ago.
(edited to correct poor word choice)
[last edit 7/9/2006 12:35 AM by supaslush - edited 1 times]
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heinrick
 
location:
Cascadia
Gender: Male
| |  | Re: Tagging, Murals and other Artish Stuff
<Reply # 2 on 7/10/2006 3:49 AM >
| | | | I think murals, when done well and respectively can be cool. My university is in a riverside town which has some beautiful parks that are sometimes ruined by other college taggers. Two years ago, some guy painted this cool mural over the bank of an overpass that was previously covered with four-letter words, and it has since been untouched.
Tagging (about half of it, anyway) just ruins almost every location, IMHO, especially where murals, artwork, and/or good architecture exists.
Though, as supaslush said, when reaching a rare destination, I suppose it can be cool to leave a small mark. I've seen attics, vent spires, and tunnels of hospitals that already had marks from former employees from almost every year they were used, including fun stuff like "The great snow storm of '56" which were kind of cool to read. 
-- heinrick
[last edit 7/10/2006 4:46 AM by heinrick - edited 1 times]
http://www.flickr.com/photos/heinrick05/ |
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ian_evil
location:
Providence, Rhode Island
Gender: Male
we hope you have enjoyed our program.
| |  | | Re: Tagging, Murals and other Artish Stuff
<Reply # 3 on 7/10/2006 4:38 AM >
| | | | Posted by supaslush
That being said, if these guys can somehow acquire tens-to-hundreds of dollars worth of spray-paint, couldn't they somehow acquire a canvas rather than mark somebody elses stuff up? Get some mortar and bricks and build your own damn wall to paint!
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Hey! Why don't you take that money for D-cells and P100 filters and build your own little decrepit "abandonment" and explore that! Because that's totally the same thing.
People I know who use a lot of paint either steal it, buy it in bulk or use rollers. It's a lot cheaper, and it maintains the "written in public" part inherent to the definition of graffiti.
I usually don't care if someone changes the way a place looks- there are lots of places.
I hate 90% of the effortless vandalism out there, because it's boring, sloppy and somehow gets lumped in with street art. But every once in a while it might be funny.
Anything else beyond that which accents, personalizes or alters a location in some kind of artistic or expressive way (tossing file cabinets out of windows GENERALLY excluded) is fine. So.. if you're writing a name on the wall in block letters, stacking all the chairs in one corner, planting flowers or whatever, at least you're out of the house and exploring.
I dunno. I like to stencil. Street art is what got me into exploration in the first place.
[last edit 7/10/2006 4:40 AM by ian_evil - edited 1 times]
[center][b]New England Industrial Culture Online[/b]
Stencil/Graffiti, Street Art - Industrial/Exprimental Music - Urban Exploration
"[i]We are the ones you had to dehumanize.[/i]"[/center] |
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heinrick
location:
Cascadia
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Tagging, Murals and other Artish Stuff
<Reply # 4 on 7/10/2006 4:43 AM >
| | | | Yikes, I wanted to modify my previous post, but quoted myself. Sorry.
Somebody please delete this. :/
[last edit 7/10/2006 4:45 AM by heinrick - edited 1 times]
http://www.flickr.com/photos/heinrick05/ |
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Stowmontgomery
location:
Binghamton, NY
Stow Montgomery in the Pavillion, then kill him in the Pagoda
| |  | | | Re: Tagging, Murals and other Artish Stuff
<Reply # 5 on 7/10/2006 1:31 PM >
| | | | yeah im definately all about the murals...but in all my exploring ive only come across one place with some real decent stuff...
   
sorry i dont know how to make them get bigger....
[last edit 7/10/2006 1:45 PM by Stowmontgomery - edited 3 times]
"Discovery is a painful and arduous thing," said the young boy.
"What did you say?" responded the man.
"I said, 'It's my birthday, and I want you to sing.' " |
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tzaone
Gender: Male
| | Re: Tagging, Murals and other Artish Stuff
<Reply # 6 on 7/10/2006 3:23 PM >
| | | | edit
[last edit 7/10/2006 3:38 PM by tzaone - edited 1 times]
make moves |
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supaslush
location:
San Diego
Gender: Male
| | Re: Tagging, Murals and other Artish Stuff
<Reply # 7 on 7/10/2006 3:56 PM >
| | | | Posted by ian_evil
Hey! Why don't you take that money for D-cells and P100 filters and build your own little decrepit "abandonment" and explore that! Because that's totally the same thing.
People I know who use a lot of paint either steal it, buy it in bulk or use rollers. It's a lot cheaper, and it maintains the "written in public" part inherent to the definition of graffiti.
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Well, my tongue was in cheek with the "build your own wall" comment, but not entirely. I think that street artists could come up with cooler ways to display their art than walls, sidewalks, mailboxes, etc., is all. I've only seen rare and scattered instances of thoughtfully placed graffiti.
And with regard to the stealing and buying-in-bulk of paint, the same could be said for other art supplies like canvases. I don't advocate stealing though.
On the other hand, I'm not one to monkey with tradition and there is a long history of people writing on walls. My favorite instance was in the ruins of Pompei, where some ancient Greek had reportedly scrawled:
"Everybody writes on walls except for me."
Which, if I came across something like that while exploring, I don't think I'd be able to help that it would brighten my day.
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KTownUE
location:
Kenosha, WI
Gender: Male
Small town UE all up in the midwest.
| | | Re: Tagging, Murals and other Artish Stuff
<Reply # 8 on 7/10/2006 7:31 PM >
| | | | I dont much enjoy grafitti on sites because all the stuff around here sucks and it just detracts from the site itself. Now some cool art I wouldnt mind so much. I personally would never do any spray painting but thats me.
5D Mk 2 with Grip
50mm f/1.2L || Canon 70-200 f/2.8L IS
|| 16-35mm f/2.8 L Mk. 2 || Canon 580EX 2 Flash |
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Deuterium
location:
PNW
Gender: Male
| | Re: Tagging, Murals and other Artish Stuff
<Reply # 9 on 7/11/2006 2:40 AM >
| | | | Posted by ian_evil
Hey! Why don't you take that money for D-cells and P100 filters and build your own little decrepit "abandonment" and explore that! Because that's totally the same thing. |
You're comparing apples and oranges. You're comparing tools for seeing and self-protection against tools of destruction. Paint compares to a wrecking bar and a sledgehammer, tools most urban explorers do not carry. The clashing points of these two categories are they're carried for the purpose of causing a damage to a property. Anything you render to a property that is undesirable to the owner and incurs an expenditure to correct it is a damage.
Do you really think its the samething to go into a car dealer lot after hours to just check out cars(i.e. trespassing) and entering the same alot armed with tools of destruction to damage the cars to your liking(i.e. criminal trespass with an intent of commiting felony destruction of property, much like so called "graffiti artisits")?
People I know who use a lot of paint either steal it, buy it in bulk or use rollers. It's a lot cheaper, and it maintains the "written in public" part inherent to the definition of graffiti. |
And these people are a liability to urban exploration community. They're the kind of people who commit a crime(larceny), in order to commit another crime(felony criminal damage) . These crime are what property owners fear and what authorities look for. So you feel ok letting these selfish criminals get away with things that ruins exploration in general?
I usually don't care if someone changes the way a place looks- there are lots of places.
I hate 90% of the effortless vandalism out there, because it's boring, sloppy and somehow gets lumped in with street art. But every once in a while it might be funny. |
Is it art or is it vandalism? How about it's misdemeanor or felony criminal damage depending on the extent of cost of repair? Do you realize the expense involved in fixing the damage of criminal defacement?
http://www.nograff...damage_getting.htm
Anything else beyond that which accents, personalizes or alters a location in some kind of artistic or expressive way (tossing file cabinets out of windows GENERALLY excluded) is fine. So.. if you're writing a name on the wall in block letters, stacking all the chairs in one corner, planting flowers or whatever, at least you're out of the house and exploring.
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What gives you the right to personalize someone else's property to your taste? I want to personalize your place of living by making it a dumpster, because I think its artistic, so by your logic, this should be acceptable, because its only the artistic value of the criminal that counts, apparently.
[last edit 7/11/2006 2:51 AM by Deuterium - edited 2 times]
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CaptOrbit
 
location:
Sarasota, FL or Cincinnati, OH
Gender: Male
There you are, right back in the jungle again.
| | | Re: Tagging, Murals and other Artish Stuff
<Reply # 10 on 7/11/2006 4:42 AM >
| | | | I believe that there is a difference between someone trying to express them selves artistically, and basically just random acts of destruction like tagging. Having said that whether we like it or not, pretty much everything Deuterium said is still true.
[last edit 7/11/2006 5:38 AM by CaptOrbit - edited 1 times]
The personal responsibility train left the station years ago, and you gave it the finger as you watched it leave. |
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blackhawk
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
Mission Control
UER newbie
| | | Re: Tagging, Murals and other Artish Stuff
<Reply # 11 on 7/11/2006 5:30 AM >
| | | | Posted by ian_evil
Hey! Why don't you take that money for D-cells and P100 filters and build your own little decrepit "abandonment" and explore that! Because that's totally the same thing.
People I know who use a lot of paint either steal it, buy it in bulk or use rollers. It's a lot cheaper, and it maintains the "written in public" part inherent to the definition of graffiti.
I usually don't care if someone changes the way a place looks- there are lots of places.
I hate 90% of the effortless vandalism out there, because it's boring, sloppy and somehow gets lumped in with street art. But every once in a while it might be funny.
Anything else beyond that which accents, personalizes or alters a location in some kind of artistic or expressive way (tossing file cabinets out of windows GENERALLY excluded) is fine. So.. if you're writing a name on the wall in block letters, stacking all the chairs in one corner, planting flowers or whatever, at least you're out of the house and exploring.
I dunno. I like to stencil. Street art is what got me into exploration in the first place.
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Yeh, yeh, we all know your an artist, how about a different face? After the first dozen it gets old. Deuterium seems to appreciate it as much as I do.
Posted by ian_evil
**Similar to the US policy on torture, I do not condone vandalism.
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Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
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supaslush
location:
San Diego
Gender: Male
| | Re: Tagging, Murals and other Artish Stuff
<Reply # 12 on 7/11/2006 7:38 AM >
| | | |
I'm not sure that this thread really belongs in "How-to, Tutorials, and Useful Information" and maybe ought to have been posted in "Main" since this doesn't really seem to be a how-to or a tutorial as much as it is just a general discussion (and one that's been hashed over before, at that!).
Just my thoughts on the matter. : )
I'd also like to acknowledge Deuterium's car-dealer analogy: that was smart.
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tzaone
Gender: Male
| | Re: Tagging, Murals and other Artish Stuff
<Reply # 13 on 7/11/2006 12:52 PM >
| | | | while i cant really say anything that deuterium is out of line, you gotta realize graffiti writers may participate in urban exploration, they are not urban explorers the same as you. they most likely came to abandoned buildings through their graffiti, ie searching out spots to hit or just looking for other peoples graffiti. its two different cultures, this one where we just like to take pictures and see cool shit around abandoned sites, and while graffiti writer's culture is also about finding cool spots, theyre looking for a spot to put their name up and put their art somewhere that someone might see it unexpectedly and have a reaction. whats wrong in this culture isnt so much wrong in that one, and vice versa.
make moves |
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Deuterium
location:
PNW
Gender: Male
| | Re: Tagging, Murals and other Artish Stuff
<Reply # 14 on 7/11/2006 1:21 PM >
| | | | Posted by tzaone
while i cant really say anything that deuterium is out of line, you gotta realize graffiti writers may participate in urban exploration, they are not urban explorers the same as you. they most likely came to abandoned buildings through their graffiti, ie searching out spots to hit or just looking for other peoples graffiti. its two different cultures, this one where we just like to take pictures and see cool shit around abandoned sites, and while graffiti writer's culture is also about finding cool spots, theyre looking for a spot to put their name up and put their art somewhere that someone might see it unexpectedly and have a reaction.
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Exactly what I fear and these people are those who shouldn't be granted a full membership and have their full membership revoked if found to be a tagger in the interest of protecting UE sites.
"
Full Members are people who have contributed to this site or have been recommended by another Full Member. These folks have contributed some meaningful content to the forum and/or location database, have been long-time explorers with a web presence or have otherwise shown that they're explorers and not taggers, vandals, cops, etc. This level gives access to all available forums and the location database."
| whats wrong in this culture isnt so much wrong in that one, and vice versa. |
You took quite nice pictures of your exploration sites. Now, picture in your mind how much worse these places would have been if they were defaced by street vandals. UEing is quite often illegal, but its merely passively invasive and the effect of true explorers is similar to museum visitors. Even if you get in the museum illegaly to enjoy the viewing experience w/o the crowd, you're breaking the law, but you're not ruining the viewing enjoyment for the subsequent visitors.
Street criminal vandals, well... fuck things up for the subsequent people.
It isn't about culture, because I'm not aware of any culture where its openly acceptable to destroy other people's property just because you feel like it. I highly despise trashing other people's property.
[last edit 7/11/2006 1:41 PM by Deuterium - edited 2 times]
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tzaone
Gender: Male
| | Re: Tagging, Murals and other Artish Stuff
<Reply # 15 on 7/11/2006 3:55 PM >
| | | | Posted by Deuterium
Exactly what I fear and these people are those who shouldn't be granted a full membership and have their full membership revoked if found to be a tagger in the interest of protecting UE sites.
You took quite nice pictures of your exploration sites. Now, picture in your mind how much worse these places would have been if they were defaced by street vandals. UEing is quite often illegal, but its merely passively invasive and the effect of true explorers is similar to museum visitors. Even if you get in the museum illegaly to enjoy the viewing experience w/o the crowd, you're breaking the law, but you're not ruining the viewing enjoyment for the subsequent visitors.
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so youre saying all any vandals knows how to do is ruin anything thats around them. suppose a graffiti writer got into urbex, whats to say they would not have the sense and responsiblity of being a true explorer to leave the abandoned building they come across untouched? and while i do not condone in any way, the destruction or alteration of exploration sites, i must to say that i have, on rare occasion, seen a piece of graffiti while exploring that i thought both contributed to the look of the site, was thoughtfully and respectfully placed, and added to the experience i had while exploring. but really only like once. so im going to agree with you 99% because in just about every instance, graffiti does indeed detract from the site. i can only think of a few examples where it would seem appropriate to see graffiti covering a site, and it would have to be in some nyc subway tunnel or something like that. in nyc, graffiti became part of the history of the city in like the 70s, and any anthropologist 700 years down the road from now would surely appreciate seeing some 1970s tag in an uncovered nyc subway tunnel, as much as the the guys who first found the cave paintings in france or the anasasi's cliff drawings.
make moves |
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Deuterium
location:
PNW
Gender: Male
| | Re: Tagging, Murals and other Artish Stuff
<Reply # 16 on 7/12/2006 6:26 AM >
| | | | Posted by tzaone
so youre saying all any vandals knows how to do is ruin anything thats around them. suppose a graffiti writer got into urbex, whats to say they would not have the sense and responsiblity of being a true explorer to leave the abandoned building they come across untouched? |
There is no guarantee on anything. There's no guarantee that a driver who's been arrested twice for DUII twice would do it again for the third time, but it is in the society's best interest to have his license revoked for the sake of reoccurance.
and while i do not condone in any way, the destruction or alteration of exploration sites, i must to say that i have, on rare occasion, seen a piece of graffiti while exploring that i thought both contributed to the look of the site, was thoughtfully and respectfully placed, and added to the experience i had while exploring. but really only like once. so im going to agree with you 99% because in just about every instance, graffiti does indeed detract from the site. |
I understand there's dissenting opinions on a form of vandalism known as "graffitti" but I believe our graffitti law represent the interest of the majority of people. Unfortunately, you can't satisfy the interest of every single person and I think it is important that the majority view is represented.
If it wasn't so, the place would be full of graffitti and there would be porn shops and Wal-Mart stores wherever the owners please. Currently, zoning law, in the interest of majority prevents that from happening without some restrictions.
[last edit 7/12/2006 6:27 AM by Deuterium - edited 1 times]
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Ducky_SJ
location:
Down & Out
Gender: Male
Hate upon hate upon hate.
| | | Re: Tagging, Murals and other Artish Stuff
<Reply # 17 on 7/12/2006 6:33 AM >
| | | | LOOK,
I can see hardly any of you who wasted your time posting on the subject of graffiti actually grasps an understanding of the practice. I can understand one's hatred for seeing the same name etched or sprayed onto the walls of their favorite abandonment, 'cause I couldn't agree more. But the truth is: THAT ISN'T GRAFFITI, THAT'S VANDALISM. Graffiti involves more than one color(or dimension) and, more than anything, style. Real artists wouldn't spray their name on a wall at an abandoned asylum or school anyway; they'd go for the roof. AND the paint that is obnoxiously sprayed everywhere isn't worth "10s-to-100s" of dollars. Some asshole scribbling their name on a wall with the artistic ability of a third grader is very different from a Tag - Get it right or shutup.
[last edit 7/12/2006 6:34 AM by Ducky_SJ - edited 1 times]
In the space of a smile I found sleep. |
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CaptOrbit
location:
Sarasota, FL or Cincinnati, OH
Gender: Male
There you are, right back in the jungle again.
| | | Re: Tagging, Murals and other Artish Stuff
<Reply # 18 on 7/12/2006 8:15 AM >
| | | | This thread seems to have become more about the ethics/philosophical nature of graffiti/tagging/whatever, much like the ethics debates that rage every time someone starts a thread relating to taking items while UEing.
If I take say, a big coil of nice extension cord, or a power tool from a site am I thief? What if I only take a key that I find on the floor, or say some minor, minor, trinket from an old supply closet as a souvenir am I still a thief? That debate can and has gone on for page after page.
How about this scenario; I get to the attic of a site and find a “guest book” on the walls, if I sign it is that vandalism? If I spray paint my name in a hall way is that vandalism? If I methodically haul in hundreds of dollars worth of paint, and spend hours sketching and filling in a large and complex mural, am I a vandal now?
I believe from a philosophical standpoint that we can flame each other’s opinions and values in perpetuity, but one thing that I believe is NOT up for debate is this, in the eyes of the law doing ANY of the above makes you a thief or vandal plain and simple. If apprehended removing anything from a site, or making any mark on it, you will probably have a difficult time explaining why your own personal code of ethics makes it okay to a judge.
Ultimately our own personal beliefs help define who we are as both people and urban explorers, and we will never agree on the many of the finer points. When dealing with the law though, what constitutes a criminal act is well defined in black & white. It is ultimately up to us as the individuals. We must decide... Is it okay? Is it worth the risk?
CO
The personal responsibility train left the station years ago, and you gave it the finger as you watched it leave. |
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Deuterium
location:
PNW
Gender: Male
| | Re: Tagging, Murals and other Artish Stuff
<Reply # 19 on 7/12/2006 9:55 AM >
| | | | Posted by CaptOrbit
This thread seems to have become more about the ethics/philosophical nature of graffiti/tagging/whatever, much like the ethics debates that rage every time someone starts a thread relating to taking items while UEing.
If I take say, a big coil of nice extension cord, or a power tool from a site am I thief? What if I only take a key that I find on the floor, or say some minor, minor, trinket from an old supply closet as a souvenir am I still a thief? That debate can and has gone on for page after page. |
It's a matter of common sense. You don't compare speeding and hit and run.
How about this scenario; I get to the attic of a site and find a “guest book” on the walls, if I sign it is that vandalism? If I spray paint my name in a hall way is that vandalism? If I methodically haul in hundreds of dollars worth of paint, and spend hours sketching and filling in a large and complex mural, am I a vandal now? |
I suppose so. Clearly, use of common sense say the two are very different because the extent of harm is different. Someone removing your bumper sticker is a vandalism as is someone getting your whole car with paint stripper.
#1.. likely nobody cares
#2.. yes that would be vandalism by consensus
#3.. by definition of most state laws, that would be felony criminal damage
I believe from a philosophical standpoint that we can flame each other’s opinions and values in perpetuity, but one thing that I believe is NOT up for debate is this, in the eyes of the law doing ANY of the above makes you a thief or vandal plain and simple. If apprehended removing anything from a site, or making any mark on it, you will probably have a difficult time explaining why your own personal code of ethics makes it okay to a judge.
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Real life isn't quite sin is sin, guilty is guilty. Magnitude makes all the difference in the world. You go to an abandoned gym that just went out of business.
1. You go in and find a cool knob, so you keep it.
2. You bring a semi to take all the remaining workout equipments.
Stealing, yet totally different in the eyes of law.
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Ethics
