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blackhawk
  
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
Mission Control
UER newbie
 |  |  | Re: Your Take ... on taking things?
<Reply # 40 on 6/17/2006 6:10 AM >
|  | | | Posted by Stowmontgomery
well, just out of curiosity, how many of you have had bad run-ins with the cops,security, etc?
personally ive never had one problem (except walking into a homeless commune thing) but beyond that ive been fine every time and knowing the cops in my town and how they dont care about anything except their paycheck and getting things for free, i really don't see me gettin in trouble anyways. i always try to go to low risk places and even the one time we went to a building on main st. where it involved us removing boards, tying ropes onto a large pole and having 3 people rapelling down into a basement window no one saw a thing.
this isnt ment to sound pretentious or anything but it seems that the main reason most of you guys dont take stuff is to either leave it for photographic interests of other explorers or to not get into more trouble... neither of which i see being an issue for me.
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I lost count years ago as most were not of any consequence, and many were enjoyable. I am a sick pup, though. Taking pics and trying to hide is counterproductive. I take pics, and that's it. You search me, and I am what I say I am. You can't be honest, and do dishonest acts as a matter of routine conduct.
Lying is a liability that consumes enormous amounts of resources to be use effectively. The more lies, the higher that cost. Older people tend to realize this, and refrain from wanton use of lies. I can lie very effectively, and not give myself away. Used only as a last resort, and then always try to lie by omission, rather than directly. Give no weapons of value to your enemy. Doing it in real time, under stressed out conditions is a true form of art.
I've seen people with silver tongues dance out of impossible circumstances. By just using the right words, the right way. A lier's words sound tainted, someone with a silver-tongue, their words are a pleasure to let sink in. If you can't do that; tell the truth. Don't hurt yourself. Ha!
Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
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CaptOrbit
   
location:
Sarasota, FL or Cincinnati, OH
Gender: Male
There you are, right back in the jungle again.
| | | Re: Your Take ... on taking things?
<Reply # 41 on 6/20/2006 1:58 AM >
| | | | I've found a lot of trinkets/signs I thought were pretty interesting, but for the most part I really don't want any thing that came from usually that filthy of an enviroment in my home. I have in fairness, made a few exceptions, almost always from buildings about to be demolished.
btw I've noticed that as worn out as this topic is people don't seem to mind chiming in.
[last edit 6/20/2006 7:00 AM by CaptOrbit - edited 3 times]
The personal responsibility train left the station years ago, and you gave it the finger as you watched it leave. |
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The_Man_in_Black
location:
Near Buffalo
Gender: Male
Rodents Of Unusual Size? I don't think they exist..
| | Re: Your Take ... on taking things?
<Reply # 42 on 6/20/2006 5:23 AM >
| | | | Posted by Stowmontgomery
So when we go urban exploring to places chock full of stuff, we tend to take "artifacts."
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No sir, not all of us "tend to" at all. I don't mean to sound brusque, but please don't assume the actions of others based upon yours.
Posted by Stowmontgomery
I mean if people are allowed to dig up sacred graves in the name of history, why shouldn't i have the right to take some random doo hickey from a factory no one will ever use again
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As an archaeology major, you well know that this argument is utter garbage.
Proper archaeological excavation of ancient tombs, temples, statuary, et al, is our only link to that distant past, or that forgotten culture. And in performing a detailed, scientific excavation, we as a people can learn about our past, and about who were are, based upon that.
Pilfering a key or tool or "random doo hickey" from a UE site serves no purpose in that regard whatsoever, save to fulfill the taker's own selfish desires/wants.
This comes up often in debates about pro VS. anti-salvage in the Titanic community, and the answer is the same: the Titanic isn't even 100 years old, is well documented, and contained nothing that could be considered a lost link to our past. The very opposite can be said of, say, bog excavations in Scotland or recovering a true artifact like the Rosetta Stone.
In short, the items that are in a site are a part of that location. The sense of excitement that you felt when you found the artifact will also be felt by the next person who might be lucky enough to see it. The position of "Well.. if I don't take it, the next guy will" is a straw dog - should one allow the potential actions of a future visitor to modify our personal ethics, or cause us to steal when normally we would not? Of course not. In short - don't sink to the level of a thief.
TMiB
I miss ednothing.. and Glass.. and Seicer.. and Jester.. and Chainsaw.. and THD.. and Mike D.. and Crossfire.. and Noah Vale.. and Maynard.. and pixie.. and Mr. Yuk.. and Worm Wirsbo.. and Miss_Informed... and dev.. Rest In Peace, dev. |
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CaptOrbit
location:
Sarasota, FL or Cincinnati, OH
Gender: Male
There you are, right back in the jungle again.
| | | Re: Your Take ... on taking things?
<Reply # 43 on 6/20/2006 7:11 AM >
| | | | Come to think of it the last time I took something it was after the building manager (property owned by a world wide organization) told me “Any thing you want take it, ’cause anything that you or the salvage crew leaves gets bulldozed.” so I guess that really doesn't count. That and it was a time I actually had permission to be there.
[last edit 6/20/2006 7:12 AM by CaptOrbit - edited 1 times]
The personal responsibility train left the station years ago, and you gave it the finger as you watched it leave. |
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Jonsered
location:
Back in New Mexico where I belong
Gender: Male
Dressed for a scarecrow ball.........
| |  |  | Re: Your Take ... on taking things?
<Reply # 44 on 6/20/2006 4:04 PM >
| | | | Posted by CaptOrbit
Come to think of it the last time I took something it was after the building manager (property owned by a world wide organization) told me “Any thing you want take it, ’cause anything that you or the salvage crew leaves gets bulldozed.” so I guess that really doesn't count. That and it was a time I actually had permission to be there.
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I don't think anybody on this board will give you a hard time about taking things from a location when you have permission of the owner. At that point, it isn't stealing, its being given a gift.
I have changed my personal exploring ethics code. From now on it will be: "Take only aimed shots, leave only hobo corpses." Copper scrappers, meth heads and homeless beware. The Jonsered cometh among you, bringing fear and dread.
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CaptOrbit
location:
Sarasota, FL or Cincinnati, OH
Gender: Male
There you are, right back in the jungle again.
| | | Re: Your Take ... on taking things?
<Reply # 45 on 6/21/2006 6:03 AM >
| | | |
I don't think anybody on this board will give you a hard time about taking things from a location when you have permission of the owner. At that point, it isn't stealing, its being given a gift. |
True enough I suppose.
The personal responsibility train left the station years ago, and you gave it the finger as you watched it leave. |
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charlie23
location:
Varna, Bulgaria
Gender: Male
| |  | | Re: Your Take ... on taking things?
<Reply # 46 on 6/21/2006 9:40 AM >
| | | | | In short, the items that are in a site are a part of that location. The sense of excitement that you felt when you found the artifact will also be felt by the next person who might be lucky enough to see it. |
I fully agree with that sentiment IF the site is likely to be explored again, restored or still in partial use.
If it's slated for razing I wouldn't consider taking something a theft any more than I would consider dumpster diving theft.
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The_Man_in_Black
location:
Near Buffalo
Gender: Male
Rodents Of Unusual Size? I don't think they exist..
| | Re: Your Take ... on taking things?
<Reply # 47 on 6/21/2006 7:00 PM >
| | | | Posted by charlie23
I fully agree with that sentiment IF the site is likely to be explored again, restored or still in partial use.
If it's slated for razing I wouldn't consider taking something a theft any more than I would consider dumpster diving theft.
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And I should point out that this is probably the only exception to my feelings on UE theft. If a building is quite literally slated for demo in a week, I say no foul.
However, there are some that will pilfer just on a rumour of demo. That's just selfish, in my opinion.
TMiB
I miss ednothing.. and Glass.. and Seicer.. and Jester.. and Chainsaw.. and THD.. and Mike D.. and Crossfire.. and Noah Vale.. and Maynard.. and pixie.. and Mr. Yuk.. and Worm Wirsbo.. and Miss_Informed... and dev.. Rest In Peace, dev. |
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Sanitarium
location:
Florida
Gender: Male
| |  | Re: Your Take ... on taking things?
<Reply # 48 on 6/21/2006 7:02 PM >
| | | | I might add that I covered my ass & had either the prop owner or demo foreman sign a paper saying that it was a gift or I had purchased it. Which I have done on occasion.
In fact that's how I got all of my old Ford porcelain signs.
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optik
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
Twin Cities, MN
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Your Take ... on taking things?
<Reply # 49 on 6/24/2006 8:29 AM >
| | | | I usually go to a building for the first time with a notebook so I can write down the things I want to take, and then I come back with a semi-trailer and a forklift, as well as 8 illegally immigrated Mexicans to help palletize things. I usually only take pointless little things noone will miss, like the walls and doors and staircases and of course the occasional stack. I figure by minimizing what I take it won't ruin it much for the next person to explore it. And remember, it's not breaking and entering if you steal the door first! I remember this cool cave full of really cool bricks I found along the river a couple of years ago, and I took all the bricks and built my house out of them... I figured even though the bricks were totally awesome, people were really there to see the cave and not some stuff inside of it.
In all reality your ethics are your ethics. Some people think its wrong to unscrew a piece of plywood or pick a padlock, others think thats kosher, but then they get their panties in a bunch when someone chains a steel gate to their truck and yanks it off the entrance to a cave system; some people think its a hellworthy trespass to take a piece of paper you find on the floor in a heap of papers, some people think thats all good, but then they get all bent out of shape when someone breaks out the screwdriver and removes a sign.
The point I'm trying to make is, who gives a shit if someone else thinks your actions are ethical or not? Are you going to lose sleep because some guy on the internet thinks youre unethical? Do what you're comfortable with, and screw what anyone else thinks. If you're a dumbass and steal the 8' tall sign outside of a building and end up in jail, you're the one sitting in jail. Get a spine and forget what people on the internet think about what you're doing. Do you seek approval for everything you do? If a chick wanted to go to bed with you, would you post her pic and ask everyone if they thought she was too fat to bone or not?
And another thing, who cares if someone else is ethical or not? Maybe if you're exploring with them you would want a set of ground rules, but personally, I don't care if some guy I've never even met thinks its ok to break a window and take a clock off the wall of an abandoned building, or an active one for that matter. It doesn't effect me, and isn't going to cause me to be exploring a jail cell. Get a life and stop condemning the actions of others. You're not some "explorer supervisor" ...You're just another explorer, so who are you to say which laws can be broken and which ones can't?
[last edit 6/24/2006 8:31 AM by optik - edited 1 times]
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Stowmontgomery
location:
Binghamton, NY
Stow Montgomery in the Pavillion, then kill him in the Pagoda
| |  | | | Re: Your Take ... on taking things?
<Reply # 50 on 6/24/2006 1:31 PM >
| | | | Damn straight!
: )
"Discovery is a painful and arduous thing," said the young boy.
"What did you say?" responded the man.
"I said, 'It's my birthday, and I want you to sing.' " |
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blackhawk
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
Mission Control
UER newbie
| | | Re: Your Take ... on taking things?
<Reply # 51 on 6/24/2006 4:01 PM >
| | | | Posted by optik
And another thing, who cares if someone else is ethical or not? Maybe if you're exploring with them you would want a set of ground rules, but personally, I don't care if some guy I've never even met thinks its ok to break a window and take a clock off the wall of an abandoned building, or an active one for that matter. It doesn't effect me, and isn't going to cause me to be exploring a jail cell. Get a life and stop condemning the actions of others. You're not some "explorer supervisor" ...You're just another explorer, so who are you to say which laws can be broken and which ones can't?
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Well after knocking off most of your quote, what is quoted above is what you had to say? When people raise hell and piss off the locals, the next poor sap who is not doing nothing other than exploring that site pays the price. Increase security, a willingness to levy stiffer penalties, ans worse the premature destruction and/or denial access to the site are the results of vandalism.
Who are you to tell anyone on this site what they can post? You got a grand total of what four posts? No pics. No useful info, except in my RFID thread, which was your first posting. Even there you merely agreed with me, and in reality I think you underestimated the portability of a RFID signal pick-up device. Does it come as a shock to you that some UER members want to keep sites they love around as long as possible?
Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
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optik
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
Twin Cities, MN
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Your Take ... on taking things?
<Reply # 52 on 6/25/2006 2:01 AM >
| | | | It doesn't come as a shock to me that explorers want to keep sites around as long as they can. And since part of what I was trying to get across was the point of who cares what someone on the internet thinks you should do, me telling people what they can and can't post isnt exactly a holy decree, now is it? Alot of the locations we go to have had some form of vandalism, be it tagging or copper theft or just windows being broken, so if someone takes a trinket or a small sign off the wall and gets caught, I don't see the owners or police coming down on you any harder than they already would have, as long as you're only carrying a camera.
I just think it's ridiculous to see people telling other people which laws they can and cant break, in fact, I think its just as ridiculous to see people asking other explorers what laws they think should be able to be broken. Like the thread I saw on whether or not its ok to climb in through an air-conditioner. It started as a guy asking if there were any dangers he hadnt though of before going in through the air-conditioner... which I consider to be a perfectly practical question. And then, people start bitching about the ethics of going in through the air-conditioner. Unless you're exploring with this person, who cares if they sneak into an active building through the air conditioner? Who cares if its a private business you sneak into? The real-estate company who owns the abandoned whatever, and the land it sits on, is also a private business, but its more ok to trespass in that case? I posted in this thread instead of that one because this one seemed to have even more of the behavior I was referring to. Whats my take on taking things?? Whats YOUR take on taking things? Theres all the information you require. You know its illegal, then again so is the trespassing and or breaking and entering you're doing.
You can't stop taggers, vandals, or copper thieves, what makes you think you can control the behavior of other explorers you arent exploring with? If you want a location left a certain way, only tell close friends about it and dont post it on the internet, and hope noone else stumbles upon it. If you want to make sure someone doesn't sneak into a building through the air conditioner, or doesnt take any trinkets from their local abandonments, seek professional counseling.
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blackhawk
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
Mission Control
UER newbie
| | | Re: Your Take ... on taking things?
<Reply # 53 on 6/25/2006 2:21 AM >
| | | | Your intent while trespassing has much to do with the severity of the offense. Where your trespassing can too. Best do your homework, or you may have a rude surprise. I can't stop hard core criminals by saying this, but good natured explorers may learn from it, and avoid costly mistakes.
Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
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optik
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
Twin Cities, MN
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Your Take ... on taking things?
<Reply # 54 on 6/25/2006 4:19 AM >
| | | | And THAT I agree with 100%
There is a big difference between a misdemeanor trespass charge, and a felony breaking and entering / posession of burglary tools / burglary charge. It's always best if you're going to break laws to break the least severe, and only one at a time. For instance don't trespass with an ounce of coke and an unregistered handgun on your person. I'm not saying the advice being given isn't good advice, I just think the entire morality police scene, and those who feel they should consult with the morality police before arguing with them and then proceeding to do whatever it was they were going to do anyway is ridiculous, as well as the ensuing arguments.
And as far as the RFID thing, I'd assume with some know-how and some parts, you could build something the size of a cell-phone or smaller that would scan RFID's and then have a USB interface and upload all the information it scanned that day to a computer, but I figured I'd try and use things for examples that could say... be more easily invisioned by those lacking vision?
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blackhawk
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
Mission Control
UER newbie
| | | Re: Your Take ... on taking things?
<Reply # 55 on 6/25/2006 4:52 AM >
| | | | Fair enough.
Personally a misdemeanor charge is too much, municipal you can live with, and isn't more than a ticket. If you have anything illegal on you, or in your car, your in more trouble. Your right, damage control will save you more trouble. Which is basically what I'm saying. Know the laws, and what your getting into. It is best to avoid this kind of "fun" altogether.
As for RFIDs, it's possible to merely pick up transmissions from an RFID with out supplying the RF field. You could make use of an existing station, and simply wait nearby. specialized devices could be as big as a cell phone? Not good.
Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
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CaptOrbit
location:
Sarasota, FL or Cincinnati, OH
Gender: Male
There you are, right back in the jungle again.
| | | Re: Your Take ... on taking things?
<Reply # 56 on 6/25/2006 6:06 AM >
| | | |
| Are you going to lose sleep because some guy on the internet thinks youre unethical? Do what you're comfortable with, and screw what anyone else thinks. |
Well, while I don’t agree with every thing you say, The above quote defiantly has some merit. We are all here for a common reason but we are not all the same, we will have different ideas about how things should be done. The problem I see is that a lot of people DO lose sleep over what some guy on the internet said, and this is how flame wars begin. No one with the exception of some one who’s trolling in the first place wants to see their ideas being trashed by some faceless poster hundreds or even thousands of miles away, I won’t lie, some times it bothers me when I get hit with it. Even when a response to a post is in earnest sometimes the respondent will say things we don’t like. Life and UE both go on though.
The personal responsibility train left the station years ago, and you gave it the finger as you watched it leave. |
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ryan
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
Providence RI
Gender: Male
F/gayz
| | | | Re: Your Take ... on taking things?
<Reply # 57 on 6/27/2006 1:59 PM >
| | | | I feel that when you explore, you explore for yourself. Be it to capture an old place on film, or be it to sift through old files and objects from that past that interest you. You do what you do for YOU, everyones different. I'm a pretty easy going guy to explore with, as long as your not smashing shit or getting me caught I would prefer somone to do what ever they would like to enjoy their experience.
My PERSONAL take on this subject is as follows.
I love the places I go and the places I explore but in EVERY place I go I find one little thing to take with me as a physical memory rather than just the print of a picture, these things are never things that would take from someones experience at what ever location I may be at, usually its something small such as a key or a something that I can easily pick up and fit in to my hand or bag, I do not go anywhere with the sole purpose of taking things but I explore knowing that i will not pretend I wont take something small and interesting home with me. I dont judge anyone on what they do if you dont take things then more power to you, but the fact is if you take something like a key and you get stopped and he says ok ill give you a break hes not going to then do a full cavity search looking for small trinkets most likely he will not know what it even is. Im not trying to encourage anyone, this is just how i personally feel, take it how you will.
I climb stuff!
Remember! Shop smart. Shop S-Mart \http://www.myspace.com/xitstheendx |
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optik
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
Twin Cities, MN
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Your Take ... on taking things?
<Reply # 58 on 6/28/2006 9:56 AM >
| | | | This one time when I was inside this drain I don't even know where is, with these guys I don't even know, the cops busted us, and brought out an X-Ray machine to make sure we didn't steal anything top-secret from the drain, because it was near the police station, that they may or may not have even known where was.
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Ethics
