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Infiltration Forums > Archived UE Tutorials, Lessons, and Useful Info > Watertowers - Security question. (Viewed 1249 times)
Mark 


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Re: Watertowers - Security question.
<Reply # 20 on 6/4/2006 7:35 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by blackhawk


I learned from the pros, the best in the business. You won't find this in a Google search. The reasons is are as stated. One hand is always in contact. You have your shoulders spread better, thus are closer to the ladder. It's easier to grip the outside even with small hands.

On caged ladders use the outside if you can, but the cage may make this harder. It's almost impossible to fall from a caged ladder, if you know what your doing. I've climbed 10's of thousands of feet on tank ladders both caged and open without safety harnesses. If your not comfortable, don't climb. If you screw up, results are final.


Just FYI the Fire Department sometimes frowns on that tactic due to the outside edge of most ladders being not designed for your hands. The round surface of the rungs was designed for your hands, not the flat or I beam shape of the rails.

I know alot of the military guys do your tactic for speed, but safety is a question.

The safest way is moveing one appendage at a time. Hand opposite foot, other hand opposite foot. At least thats what every fire academy teaches and requires. Those guys are probably one of the few jobs that is constantly playing with ladders.

"If the threat level goes up its probably because of me." "I am looking for a girl who enjoys headbutting beltbuckles"
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Re: Watertowers - Security question.
<Reply # 21 on 6/4/2006 5:53 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by Mark


Just FYI the Fire Department sometimes frowns on that tactic due to the outside edge of most ladders being not designed for your hands. The round surface of the rungs was designed for your hands, not the flat or I beam shape of the rails.

I know alot of the military guys do your tactic for speed, but safety is a question.

The safest way is moveing one appendage at a time. Hand opposite foot, other hand opposite foot. At least thats what every fire academy teaches and requires. Those guys are probably one of the few jobs that is constantly playing with ladders.


I beg to differ. Even with small hands the rungs are a small OD, and hard to grasp; military spec ones are sometimes a larger OD. On an uncaged fixed ladder, especially in interiors of tanks there's good reasons to use the outside. If the rung your hand's on gives way, you'll go flying. Steel workers, blasters/painters climb more steel than any fireman.

It's not just speed it's ergonomics. Try climbing 500-1500 feet a day, if you can, you'll take the outside. Your hand can still slip off a rung, if so you fall outward, and away. With no cage, you fall.

At least when using the outside one hand is always on the rail, and the traveling hand is very close for an emergency. Futhermore the last ditch death grasp at a rung while falling away from it, with equipment, is awkward and difficult to do successfully. When on the outside the simple reflex is to bear hug the ladder if in trouble, something should catch. It may not be pretty, but you'll live.

Steeplejacks, merchant marines, structural steel workers, tank, and bridge painters learned these lessons the hard way. The ones that lived passed their tricks on to those they train.



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Re: Watertowers - Security question.
<Reply # 22 on 6/5/2006 12:42 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I'm sorry all, I didn't get out to the tower. I ended up having 5? 6? Graduation parties, so my weekend free-time was slim, and my freetime at night was screwed over by a thunderstorm. ja.

I do have the equipment and would clip in and such, but thanks a lot for the tips. For the first watertower I climbed I used the paranoid "grab the rungs by reaching through the ladder and to the rung one higher" technique.

Caged ladders feel so much safer though... I just scamper up those (until scampering became slow-steady plodding after 100+ feet).

Re: Security- I did manage to do a preliminary scan and didn't see anything. There is a wire running through the chain-link fence, but terminates on both ends w/o ducking into the ground or any boxes, so my guess is it's supportive.

One new question: It's ringed w/ cell antenna's. Will they cook me? Can I just stay away from directly in front and be fine? I figure they can't be ridiculously high-powered, but I'm sure someone here works with them or has climbed near them.

Many thanks!

"That's just my opinion. I would, however, advocate for explosive breaching, since speed and looking cool are both concerns in my job."-Wilkinshire
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Re: Watertowers - Security question.
<Reply # 23 on 6/5/2006 1:28 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by MindHacker
I'm sorry all, I didn't get out to the tower. I ended up having 5? 6? Graduation parties, so my weekend free-time was slim, and my freetime at night was screwed over by a thunderstorm. ja.

I do have the equipment and would clip in and such, but thanks a lot for the tips. For the first watertower I climbed I used the paranoid "grab the rungs by reaching through the ladder and to the rung one higher" technique.

Caged ladders feel so much safer though... I just scamper up those (until scampering became slow-steady plodding after 100+ feet).

Re: Security- I did manage to do a preliminary scan and didn't see anything. There is a wire running through the chain-link fence, but terminates on both ends w/o ducking into the ground or any boxes, so my guess is it's supportive.

One new question: It's ringed w/ cell antenna's. Will they cook me? Can I just stay away from directly in front and be fine? I figure they can't be ridiculously high-powered, but I'm sure someone here works with them or has climbed near them.

Many thanks!



Don't get feelin' too comfy; metal is unforgiving, and be very careful on the top. Do not venture out on the dome, or near the edge(if the roof has one) without a double safety line & harness. Be mindful of your silhouette against the skyline.

It is great fun climbing those ladders though, especially if you found one over 100 feet!

As for the antennas I've never played with them, but at the least keep your distance from them. Be aware tampering with them is maybe a federal offense, not sure on that either. Never have seen alarms, but there's a possibility.


Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
Mark 


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Re: Watertowers - Security question.
<Reply # 24 on 6/5/2006 9:13 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
MindHacker - I think a few people on here have talked about the antenna issue before, and most say not to stand infront of them and limit your time and you should be ok up top side. I know several of those companies shut down one antenna at a time to work on them instead of the whole grid. However I do not know why they do this and some further reserach would be a prudent cource of action.

As for how you hang onto a ladder. Your technique is bad bad. If something falls which it still boggles the mind how much shit falls from places that have so little to fall from.

The best way is to stick your leg through the rung. Bend at your leg at the knee. Catch a lower rung where your leg and foot meet. Now even if you get knocked cold, you wont fall. You only really need to do this with one leg.


blackhawk - I am going to atempt to explain this as best I can from memory and my poor grammer.

There are several reasons we don't want to grab the outside of the ladder. All these reasons are pounded into fire fighters because of the risks involved and the amount of weight they must carry up and down ladders. Also the US army teaches this same class to the grunts.

Knees bent and apart, hands grasping the RUNGS as far out as possible. You always keep 3 points of contact on the ladder at all times. As you climb only ONE apendage is to be free of the ladder at a time.

Now I will point out the dangers although slim, at climbing the way you stated. When you grab something a broom stick, certian door handles, hell anything that goes through your hand we always grasp at a perpendicular angle. The reason is fairly simple. We have more strength in our forearms, and biceps then in the muscles that join our wrists.

Any beginner martial artist will tell you when you twist the wrist in the fashion it would be during a fall, you loose substantial ability to grip. Thats why anyone who tries to break an armlock always trists the pinky finger toward the forarm forceing some muscles to weaken at that angle.

Not to mention most of your climbing is actually done by your legs and not your arms. If you loose your footing and begin to fall you may start to slide down, gain momentum which in turn will worsen the process.

next...the most common ways that ladders are attached to their respective structures usually results in some type of fastener (nail, bolts, nuts, welds, etc) being on the backside of the vertical poles. when one grabs this portion, you tend to open yourself to unnecessary hand damage. some of the nuts and bolts have sharpened corners, some nails poke through, some welds have broken over time...all of these can lead to cuts, abrasions, and other nasty damage to your hands. furthermore, the mere presence of these fasteners makes the whole gripping activity more difficult since they disrupt the proper grip.

additionally, when i try to imagine my body form while using your prescribed technique, i'm left realizing that in order to reduce the stress on my wrists i must suspend my CG further from the ladder. that's a bad thing for safety, and economy of effort. when you lean your body further from the ladder, your hands and arms take on even more strain.

with a hand over grip (ie knuckles up, palms down) and your body is closer to the ladder, you have a fairly efficient technique. should your feet slip, your arms and hands are aligned in the most efficient position to keep you on the structure. if your hands should slip, they are already aligned to regrip the next lower rung. if forearm fatigue should arise, you can reverse your grip on the rungs (ie knuckles down, palm up) and now rest your forearms and stress your biceps.

"If the threat level goes up its probably because of me." "I am looking for a girl who enjoys headbutting beltbuckles"
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Re: Watertowers - Security question.
<Reply # 25 on 6/5/2006 9:48 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by Mark



blackhawk - I am going to atempt to explain this as best I can from memory and my poor grammer.

There are several reasons we don't want to grab the outside of the ladder. All these reasons are pounded into fire fighters because of the risks involved and the amount of weight they must carry up and down ladders. Also the US army teaches this same class to the grunts.

Knees bent and apart, hands grasping the RUNGS as far out as possible. You always keep 3 points of contact on the ladder at all times. As you climb only ONE apendage is to be free of the ladder at a time.

Now I will point out the dangers although slim, at climbing the way you stated. When you grab something a broom stick, certian door handles, hell anything that goes through your hand we always grasp at a perpendicular angle. The reason is fairly simple. We have more strength in our forearms, and biceps then in the muscles that join our wrists.

Any beginner martial artist will tell you when you twist the wrist in the fashion it would be during a fall, you loose substantial ability to grip. Thats why anyone who tries to break an armlock always trists the pinky finger toward the forarm forceing some muscles to weaken at that angle.

Not to mention most of your climbing is actually done by your legs and not your arms. If you loose your footing and begin to fall you may start to slide down, gain momentum which in turn will worsen the process.

next...the most common ways that ladders are attached to their respective structures usually results in some type of fastener (nail, bolts, nuts, welds, etc) being on the backside of the vertical poles. when one grabs this portion, you tend to open yourself to unnecessary hand damage. some of the nuts and bolts have sharpened corners, some nails poke through, some welds have broken over time...all of these can lead to cuts, abrasions, and other nasty damage to your hands. furthermore, the mere presence of these fasteners makes the whole gripping activity more difficult since they disrupt the proper grip.

additionally, when i try to imagine my body form while using your prescribed technique, i'm left realizing that in order to reduce the stress on my wrists i must suspend my CG further from the ladder. that's a bad thing for safety, and economy of effort. when you lean your body further from the ladder, your hands and arms take on even more strain.

with a hand over grip (ie knuckles up, palms down) and your body is closer to the ladder, you have a fairly efficient technique. should your feet slip, your arms and hands are aligned in the most efficient position to keep you on the structure. if your hands should slip, they are already aligned to regrip the next lower rung. if forearm fatigue should arise, you can reverse your grip on the rungs (ie knuckles down, palm up) and now rest your forearms and stress your biceps.


Each tank is different. If you can, use the outside rail for hand placement on fixed uncaged ladders. I didn't stutter. The better ergonomics puts your pushing leg in optimum position. same-same on overhead monkey bars with round side rails with end mounts. You go much faster, and easier by not using the rungs. Less tiring is safer; the climb is just entertainment, the work begins at the top. I never came close to falling on either, and still climb.

I've "walked" up 12+ inch "I" and "T"/bulkhead beams the same way, hand on either side with fingers not even wrapped on a 2nd edge. I've done this dozens of times up to 40 feet in the air, no safeties.

Firefighters don't know that trick?

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Re: Watertowers - Security question.
<Reply # 26 on 6/6/2006 12:15 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
My suggestion is that you be most careful on the way down thats when you will be moving fastest.

with out a cage I think I perfer blackhawks method if you fall your gonna wanna be as close to the ladder as possible.

And as allways dont look down This thing is probally much higher than you think.

good luck


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Mark 


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Re: Watertowers - Security question.
<Reply # 27 on 6/6/2006 12:29 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Alright lets do a test. Lets take your technique and mine and compare. Go to your local abandonment and bring two friends. Go up the ladder until you can't touch and have your two friends hang both ways. Now tell me how long they both hang.

Slipping is considered failing, because you will never catch yourself in a fall.


Your technique is inherently dangerous for dozens of reasons , and I refuse to allow you to call it "the right way" when it obviously isnt the right or safe way.

"If the threat level goes up its probably because of me." "I am looking for a girl who enjoys headbutting beltbuckles"
Mark 


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Re: Watertowers - Security question.
<Reply # 28 on 6/6/2006 12:35 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by Free Baller
My suggestion is that you be most careful on the way down thats when you will be moving fastest.

with out a cage I think I perfer blackhawks method if you fall your gonna wanna be as close to the ladder as possible.

And as allways dont look down This thing is probally much higher than you think.

good luck



If you grab like Blackhawk says your hand even if you have your elbows bent 90 degrees, your still almost 2 feet from the ladder. If you over hand it and your knees are bent outward you keep your crotch/CG close to the ladder. Not to mention if your start falling exactly how are going to stop your fall? Vice grip the sides? Its easier to grab a rung then it is to grab onto the side. With the acception of Andre the Giant I don't know anyone who could vice grip like that, and did I mention hes dead.

"If the threat level goes up its probably because of me." "I am looking for a girl who enjoys headbutting beltbuckles"
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Re: Watertowers - Security question.
<Reply # 29 on 6/6/2006 1:02 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by Mark
Alright lets do a test. Lets take your technique and mine and compare. Go to your local abandonment and bring two friends. Go up the ladder until you can't touch and have your two friends hang both ways. Now tell me how long they both hang.

Slipping is considered failing, because you will never catch yourself in a fall.


Your technique is inherently dangerous for dozens of reasons , and I refuse to allow you to call it "the right way" when it obviously isnt the right or safe way.


Again I learned this from pros. Greek merchant marines, steeplejacks, bridge blaster/painters, people who spent years working in high places, most times not wearing safety harnesses. It's not something you learn in a manual, a book, or on the net; it's both a trade, and a variety of skills. It's passed on person to person.

Each tank, bridge, is unique. Conditions, weather, equipment, personal preference etc dictate the technic(s) employed while working on a structure. Since most fixed ladders are caged the technic is seldom employed except by tank blasters/painters. Nothing to prove; it's history. I got you on this one and I know it.

For those who will try climbing on steel, think about what your doing before you do it. If your not sure, don't. If your nervous about doing it, don't. Start small, and work your way up.

Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
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Re: Watertowers - Security question.
<Reply # 30 on 6/6/2006 1:22 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by Free Baller
My suggestion is that you be most careful on the way down thats when you will be moving fastest.

with out a cage I think I perfer blackhawks method if you fall your gonna wanna be as close to the ladder as possible.

And as allways dont look down This thing is probally much higher than you think.

good luck



Up or down doesn't really matter. If you loose grasp with both hands, and your leaning out, off balance, your most likely will fall. I don't care how your doing it, a total slip will result in a fall. One hand must be in firm contact at all times. If every rung you climb you have to have a white knuckle death grip on it, and if your second guessing your every step, your not going to do well.

Most tank painter's do wear gloves, certainly to blast, but are particular which brand they use. The wrong gloves are dangerous which is why I said use bare hands. A few cuts won't kill you.

This is easy stuff. Try working up there with a sand blasting hose on a bosun's chair, no safety tether. It gets harder then that though.

Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
Mark 


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Re: Watertowers - Security question.
<Reply # 31 on 6/8/2006 4:50 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by blackhawk


Up or down doesn't really matter. If you loose grasp with both hands, and your leaning out, off balance, your most likely will fall. I don't care how your doing it, a total slip will result in a fall. One hand must be in firm contact at all times. If every rung you climb you have to have a white knuckle death grip on it, and if your second guessing your every step, your not going to do well.

Most tank painter's do wear gloves, certainly to blast, but are particular which brand they use. The wrong gloves are dangerous which is why I said use bare hands. A few cuts won't kill you.

This is easy stuff. Try working up there with a sand blasting hose on a bosun's chair, no safety tether. It gets harder then that though.


If you belive its safer, loose your "footing" as if falling from a slip of the feet. Hang by your technique. Then try mine. Tell me how long you can hang.

"If the threat level goes up its probably because of me." "I am looking for a girl who enjoys headbutting beltbuckles"
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Re: Watertowers - Security question.
<Reply # 32 on 6/8/2006 6:44 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Always maintain contact with 3 points. Two feet one hand, two hand one foot.

We must also go out and meet the enemy before he reaches our shores. We must defeat him before he attacks us, before our cities are laid to waste.

William Lyon Mackenzie King, Prime Minister of Canada from 1921-1926, 1926-1930 and 1935-1948
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Re: Watertowers - Security question.
<Reply # 33 on 6/8/2006 6:44 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by Mark


If you belive its safer, loose your "footing" as if falling from a slip of the feet. Hang by your technique. Then try mine. Tell me how long you can hang.


I've free climbed on steel for a living; climbing a ladder is child's play compared to that. Try it for a couple years then tell me about it.
How long you can hang in a what vertical position is irrelevant to climbing a ladder. I never slipped with my lead hand while climbing ladders, which why I'm here. I've hang by my hands 90+ feet up to get into bosun's chairs. I don't think you be to eager to hang by one hand up there by accident, and if you did you would most likey fall.

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Re: Watertowers - Security question.
<Reply # 34 on 6/9/2006 12:55 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I believe Blackhawk and Mark are both correct. In the IFSTA Essentials manual, both methods are correct. Whichever is more comfortable or dictated by the department's SOP.
Like White Trash said, Three points of contact is a good rule of thumb. I was taught this at the fire academy, ironworker apprenticeship and OSHA classes. For more info, search for "ladders" on OSHA.gov-it covers both portable and fixed ladder standards.
[last edit 6/9/2006 1:08 AM by BMac718 - edited 1 times]

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Re: Watertowers - Security question.
<Reply # 35 on 6/9/2006 1:09 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by BMac718
I believe Blackhawk and Mark are both correct. In the IFSTA Essentials manual, both methods are correct. Whichever is more comfortable or dictated by the department's SOP.
Three points of contact is a good rule of thumb. I was taught this at the fire academy, ironworker apprenticeship and OSHA classes. For more info, search for "ladders" on OSHA.gov-it covers both portable and fixed ladder standards.


Three points sounds good, but in practice you won't climb very well. Some things will be impossible to do. This is not something you learn in a book, or here. That is a point I want to make sure everyone understands. Structural steel climbing is dangerous if your not experienced. Go with a seasoned climber if possible.

I started with no help at six YO, on a dare. Climbing is a skill that you learn by doing. Don't bite off more than you can chew.

Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
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Re: Watertowers - Security question.
<Reply # 36 on 6/9/2006 1:16 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
This is why I don't like ladders.

[15:00:33] <SeeThirty> cause you're not likely to be anywhere that other people haven't been who didn't have protection
[15:00:41] <SeeThirty> still better safe than lexi
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Re: Watertowers - Security question.
<Reply # 37 on 6/9/2006 1:22 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by Lexi
This is why I don't like ladders.


Nothing wrong with ladders, it's who's on them.

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Re: Watertowers - Security question.
<Reply # 38 on 6/9/2006 1:29 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by blackhawk


Three points sounds good, but in practice you won't climb very well. Some things will be impossible to do. This is not something you learn in a book, or here. That is a point I want to make sure everyone understands. Structural steel climbing is dangerous if your not experienced. Go with a seasoned climber if possible.

I started with no help at six YO, on a dare. Climbing is a skill that you learn by doing. Don't bite off more than you can chew.


I agree, oftentimes I'll have a decking saw on my shoulder, or bucket loaded w/ tools, so this makes three-point contact impossible/impractical. Technically I should hoist the gear up on a rope, but some days you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't.

Unfortunately, climbing columns is outlawed by OSHA, but it's still fun. I just hate walking icy steel on a cold, windy day, fuck that. Just one slip is all it takes. Stay safe!

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Re: Watertowers - Security question.
<Reply # 39 on 6/9/2006 1:37 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by BMac718


I agree, oftentimes I'll have a decking saw on my shoulder, or bucket loaded w/ tools, so this makes three-point contact impossible/impractical. Technically I should hoist the gear up on a rope, but some days you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't.

Unfortunately, climbing columns is outlawed by OSHA, but it's still fun. I just hate walking icy steel on a cold, windy day, fuck that. Just one slip is all it takes. Stay safe!


Ha! Well put. Fuck OSHA. pussies. Nothing like walking up a beam. Steel in the winter/ wet steel is a no-go. Fuck that!

Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
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