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Poll Question:
As an urban explorer, how important is it for you to KNOW the law for yourself? | | Total Votes: | 112 | | 1. Dude, it's like top of my list. | 23 | 20.54 % | 
| | 2. It's important, but I don't overdo it. | 56 | 50 % |
| | 3. So-so. If I know it, fine. If I don't, that's fine too. | 9 | 8.04 % |
| | 4. The attorneys I hang with all know the law. I don't need to. | 2 | 1.79 % |
| | 5. I genuinely believe I can trust law enforcement to act in my best interest. | 3 | 2.68 % |
| | 6. I don't give a flying gooseberry about the law. I'm an explorer! | 11 | 9.82 % |
| | 7. I would not feel comfortable asserting my rights if caught, no matter how much law I knew. | 8 | 7.14 % |
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MothMan
  
Noble Donor
location:
The Gem City
Gender: Male
If you didn't bring back any pictures with you then you obviously weren't there!
 |  | Know your law. Seriously
< on 10/3/2003 3:33 AM >
|  | | | This applies to the united States in general and to Ohio in particular. This is my rationale but the law quoted is current; Chapter 29, Ohio Revised Code (ORC).
Part I. You have no felony conviction, or are not on probation (i.e. you're clean)
A. Use your street-smarts. Blindly trusting a cop to do the right and just and fair thing is past dumb; that's just plain stupid. S/he's a person same as you. Just because s/he's a peace officer does not constrain him/her to perform in the public's best interest (or yours) each and every time s/he is called on to so act. The peace officer is subject to human foibles and shortcomings like we all are: bad days, mean tempers, self-righteous attitudes, personal vendettas, poor judgement calls, and so on. Any of those things jeopardize you.
B. Assess the situation. If the conditions are calm, people seem level-headed, and you know you can articulate why you're doing what you're doing here, then approach "law enforcement" respectfully. Don't be naive about the law that applies to your particular circumstances. If you are, your ignorance WILL BE used against you. Remember though that you ARE a member of the "public" the official is forsworn to "serve." You are the master, the public servant is not. His or her's intuition, suspicion, and snap judgements are not tantamount to your guilt. In anything.
C. Maintain your standing. You are by-god not guilty of anything until so convicted by a court of proper jurisdiction and venue (and possibly by a jury of your peers). Period. That peace office/security guard/night patrolman does not determine your guilt or your innocense. The MOST s/he may do is act upon whether you were observed committing a crime, or whether s/he has reason to believe you did so.
D. Be respectful, courteous, and brief. Don't volunteer what didn't get asked. Don't go into long-winded dissertations about the horrible failings of the judicial system. This is not the time to cop an attitude and share your personal misgivings about police officers, either. Keep your replies long enough to be credible and short enough to just answer what you have to answer.
E. Your choice. If you DO decide to hoof it, think before you run. What are the chances you were recognized? Did you get burned (face on camera some place)? Did the peace officer get a real good look at your face? Do any of the law enforcement involved know you or your relatives? You see where I'm going...
IF you run and were already identified (or easily could be) then you're stupid. IF you run and there is just no way you could be identified because there is no info to know who you are, then you must assess if you can run and not get caught, and whether you will not be seen or casually observed later in the area or neighborhood. If you remain you COULD get slapped with a serious felony. It depends on what you did/do.
Part II. You already have a felony conviction, or are currently on probation (i.e. not so clean)
A. Use your street-smarts. Run if you know you can run and not get caught. If you are already on probation then you know you're not supposed to be breaking any laws -- that's a condition of your supervision. Probation + law-break = jail.
Part III. Here's a brief list of possible crimes an urban explorer in Ohio might get tangled up with. Canada is different, as are other states in the Union. This list is not all-inclusive.
1) Criminal trespass (§ 2911.21).
This is a 4th degree misdemeanor. This crime is committed by you when you knowingly enter or remain on the land or premises of another, without privilege, public property notwithstanding. Every urban explorer commits this misdemeanor when they explore without permission on the property/premises they don't own or were not invited to enter, or when they failed to depart when asked to leave.
2) Aggravated trespass (§ 2911.21.1).
This is a 1st degree misdemeanor (the highest type of misdemeanor). This crime is committed by you when you TRESPASS (as defined above) with the purpose of committing a misdemeanor; the elements of which involve causing physical harm to somebody, or making another person believe you will cause physical harm to him/her.
3) Breaking and entering (§ 2911.13).
This is a 5th degree felony (the lowest). This crime is committed by you when you TRESPASS (as defined above) with the purpose of committing any theft offense or any felony. Not all theft offenses are felony offenses, of course, but combining any of them with trespassing creates an automatic felony charge.
B&E is a good example of a charge dependent on a subordinate crime, e.g. trespassing. It's academic, but there is no such thing as "Breaking and entering" all on its own. Just as important to know, the difference between B&E and burglary is whether the structure is occupied. Breaking and entering is a crime occurring in an unoccupied structure (while burglary is a crime that by definition takes place in an occupied structure). Your accomplices do not count.
(I'm not going to discuss robbery here. If you plan on robbing somebody then pray I don't meet up with your poor worthless dead ass and beat the living shit outta you.)
4) Theft (§ 2913.02).
This crime is committed when you knowingly obtain; or exert control over; either property or services with the purpose of depriving the owner of his/her property or services in any of the following ways; absent the owner's consent (or his authorized agent), beyond the scope of the express or implied owner's consent (or his authorized agent), by deception, via threat, or through intimidation. Petty theft is a 1st degree misdemeanor. It just gets worse from there.
Petty theft ends and a 5th degree felony begins when the amount hits $500. The increasing weight of the felony charge corresponds to the amount of property or services you have taken or controlled. Grand theft (4th degree felony) involves values of at least $5,000 to not more than $100,000 and aggravated theft is anything from $100,000 upwards (3rd, 2nd, and 1st degree felonies). Certain objects and targets of theft carry fixed charges no matter the amount taken.
For instance, if you steal a car worth only $125 you will be charged with grand theft auto, a 4th degree felony, even though the property amount would otherwise have fallen into the petty theft category. Stolen drugs and firearms likewise carry fixed charges notwithstanding the dollar amount involved.
Lastly, the law distinguishes goods or services stolen from disabled adults or the elderly. (And if you are a dog so low to steal from a disabled adult, or somebody's grandmother, you deserve a beating to within an inch of your feckless life.)
5) Intimidation (§ 2921.03).
This is an F3 charge, a felony of the third degree. This crime is committed by you when you knowingly and by force, through an unlawful threat of harm to any person or property (or by filing, recording, or otherwise using a materially false or fraudulent writing with malicious purpose, in bad faith, or in a wanton or reckless manner) attempt to influence, intimidate, or hinder a public servant, party official, or witness in the discharge of his/her duty.
The threat of harm involved in a violation of this section is not restricted to a threat of physical harm.
6) Obstructing justice (§ 2921.32).
This crime is committed by you when you hinder the discovery, apprehension, prosecution, conviction, or punishment of another for a crime or assist somebody to benefit from the commission of a crime; or when you intentionally hinder the discovery, apprehension, prosecution, adjudication as a delinquent child, or disposition of a child for an act that if committed by an adult would be a crime (or to assist a child to benefit from the commission of an act that if committed by an adult would be a crime) by any of the following ways: harboring or concealing the other person or child; providing the other person or child with money, transportation, a weapon, a disguise, or other means of avoiding discovery or apprehension; warning the other person or child of impending discovery or apprehension; destroying or concealing physical evidence of the crime or act, or inducing any person to withhold testimony or information or to elude legal process summoning the person to testify or supply evidence; communicating false information to any person; or preventing or obstructing any person, by means of force, intimidation, or deception, from performing any act to aid in the discovery, apprehension, or prosecution of the other person or child.
Generally (but not always), whatever crime or act the person or child you helped has committed is used to determine the penalty for the violation. So if they committed a misdemeanor, you'll be charged for a misdemeanor.
7) Failure to aid a law enforcement officer (2921.23).
This is a minor misdemeanor. This crime is committed by you when you negligently fail (or refuse) to aid a law enforcement officer, when s/he calls on you for assistance in preventing or halting the commission of an offense, or in apprehending or detaining an offender, when you can render such aid without substantial risk of physical harm to yourself.
It does not matter if the offense involved is a felony or misdemeanor and neither does it matter if the offender was formally charged at the time you were asked to help law enforcement.
8) Resisting arrest (§ 2921.33).
This crime is committed by you when you recklessly (or by force) resist or interfere with a lawful arrest of yourself or somebody else. This is a 2nd degree misdemeanor.
If the resistance causes physical harm to a law enforcement officer then it's a first degree misdemeanor. If the offender brandishes a deadly weapon or causes physical harm to a law enforcement officer by means of a deadly weapon, then it's an F4 offense; a felony of the fourth degree. Here "deadly weapon" means any instrument, device, or thing capable of inflicting death; and designed or specially adapted for use as a weapon; or possessed, carried, or used as a weapon. If you interfered with a citizen's arrest, you'd be charged with the 2nd degree misdemeanor.
9) Failure to comply with order or signal of police officer (§ 2921.33.1).
You commit this crime when you willfully operate a motor vehicle to elude or flee from a police officer after receiving a visible or audible signal from him/her to bring your motor vehicle to a stop. (This is because we are supposed to comply with any lawful order or direction of a police officer invested with authority to direct, control, or regulate traffic.)
Violation is a 1st degree misdemeanor. However, if a court determines that the offender was fleeing immediately after the commission of a felony, then the act of fleeing here is a 4th degree felony.
Likewise, you'll be hit with an F3 charge if a court decides your operation of the motor vehicle was the approximate cause of serious physical harm to persons or property, or if operation caused a substantial risk of serious physical harm.
10) Escape (§ 2921.34).
This is generally a 4th degree felony (but not always, depending on circumstances I don't go into). You commit this crime when you are under detention (or being reckless in that regard) and you purposely break, or attempt to break the detention (or purposely fail to return to detention, either following temporary leave granted for a specific purpose or limited period, or at the time required when serving a sentence in intermittent confinement).
This law applies to breaking out of "jail" and breaking arrest, and the latter is our concern here of course. (Here "detention" includes arrest, as well as everything else you think it means.)
Please note, escape is one of the few crimes that carry mandatory consecutive jail time; imprisonment imposed for escape must be served consecutively to any other sentence of imprisonment imposed on the offender.
Please note further, there are certain affirmative defenses to the crime of escape and these apply only to escape deriving from arrest, and only if the arrest (detention) occurs without a court order. Irregularity or lack of jurisdiction is an affirmative defense only if escape involved no substantial risk of harm to someone else's person or property, or the detaining authority knew (or should have known) there was no legal basis or authority for the detention (arrest).
Proof of guilt of escape requires a showing that you (the offender) knew you were under detention or that you perversely disregarded a risk that you were under detention. The purpose of this requirement is to protect those who don't know and have not reasonably been informed that they are under detention (arrest), or who reasonably believe they are the victims of an illegal detention committed for the purpose of harming them in some way.
11) Vandalism (§ 2909.05).
This one covers alot and is generally an F4 offense. I'm only relating a narrow application as it may apply to the typical -- if there is such a thing -- urban explorer. You commit this crime when you knowingly cause serious physical harm to an occupied structure or any of its contents.
Regarding unoccupied structures, you commit this crime when you knowingly cause physical harm to property that is owned or possessed by another when that property is used by its owner (or possessor) in his/her profession, business, trade, or occupation, and the value of the property or the amount of physical harm involved is five hundred dollars or more; or regardless of the value of the property or the amount of damage done, the property or its equivalent is NECESSARY in order for its owner or possessor to engage in his/her profession, business, trade, or occupation.
So, damage to a home somebody dwells in is vandalism. Damage to a working factory is vandalism. Damage to a shed or barn a plumber keeps his tools in as a matter of convenience is vandalism. But the law treats these as three different degrees of the crime.
As long as the structure is not necessary to the owner/possessor for his/her business or trade, and is unoccupied, you'll receive the lightest application of the law. I'm not going to get into damage to cemeteries or to government entity property.
Examples of vandalism include breaking windows in a home, destroying furniture, or befouling a home with excrement, so as to make it temporarily unusable or so as to require a substantial amount of time, effort, or money to make good the damage. This section also embraces the concept of knowingly causing serious physical harm to property used in or necessary to the occupation of its owner or possessor. Examples of this type of violation include rifling and scattering current case files of an attorney, damaging the samples of a traveling salesman, or destroying a plumber's tools.
When the property involved is merely used in its owner's or possessor's occupation, as opposed to its being necessary to carry on his/her occupation, then the value of the property or the amount of damage done must be $150 or more for there to be a violation of this part of the section.
If it's dude's home, or if dude needs the place, think twice.
12) Criminal damaging or endangering (§ 2909.06).
You commit this crime when you cause, or create a substantial risk of physical harm to any property of another without the other person's consent. You can do this knowingly, by any means.
You can also do this recklessly, by means of fire, explosion, flood, poison gas, poison, radioactive material, caustic or corrosive material, or any other inherently dangerous agency or substance. This is a misdemeanor of the second degree. When you a create a risk of physical harm to a person, it's a 1st degree misdemeanor.
If the property involves an aircraft or any equipment or implement used or intended to be used in the operation of an aircraft, and if the violation creates a risk of physical harm to any person, you're looking at a felony of the fifth degree.
Lastly, if the property involves an aircraft or any equipment or implement used or intended to be used in the operation of an aircraft, and if the violation creates a SUBSTANTIAL risk of physical harm to any person, you're looking at an F4.
13) Criminal mischief (§ 2909.07).
Usually a 3rd degree misdemeanor. You commit this crime when you knowingly move, deface, damage, destroy, or otherwise improperly tamper with the property of another; or employ a tear gas device, stink bomb, smoke generator, or similar device to interfere with the use or enjoyment of another's property; or mess with a bench mark, triangulation station, boundary marker, or other survey station, monument, or marker; or tamper with any safety device; or set a fire on the land of another. Is that enough for you?
If the violation creates a risk of physical harm to someone, then it's upped to the top misdemeanor. And like criminal damaging or endangering, if aircraft are involved you're facing some felonies.
This law provides a comprehensive prohibition against any unprivileged, unjustified, and unauthorized act of knowingly tampering with another's property.
(I don't discuss arson here. If you're an arsonist and feel the need to burn buildings down then let us get together and tie you up inside one of your burning buildings so you can watch the pretty flames up close and personal.)
14) Railroad vandalism or criminal trespass; interference with operation of train (§ 2909.10).
Hey kids, here's a grab bag of misdemeanors and felonies. When you knowingly, and by any means, drop or throw any object at, onto, or in the path of, any railroad rail, railroad track, locomotive, engine, railroad car, or other vehicle of a railroad company while such vehicle is on a railroad track then you're guilty of railroad vandalism.
When you, without privilege to do so, climb upon or into any locomotive, engine, railroad car, or other vehicle of a railroad company when it is on a railroad track then you're guilty of criminal trespass on that vehicle.
When you, without privilege to do so, disrupt, delay, or prevent the operation of any train or other vehicle of a railroad company while such vehicle is on a railroad track then you're guilty of interference with the operation of a train.
Railroad vandalism, criminal trespass on a railroad vehicle, and interference with the operation of a train each is a misdemeanor of the first degree. If the violation causes serious physical harm to property or creates a substantial risk of physical harm to any person, the violation is a felony F4.
If somebody gets hurt though, it's an F3. If they got hurt real bad (serious physical harm) then it's a second degree felony.
Finally, when you, without privilege to do so, knowingly enter or remain on the land or premises of a railroad company then you're guilty of just plain criminal trespass, in all its glory.
15) Failure to report a crime or knowledge of a death or burn injury (§ 2921.22).
If you know that a felony has been or is being committed and knowingly fail to report such information to law enforcement authorities then you're guilty of failure to report a crime; a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.
If you are a person giving aid to a sick or injured person and negligently fail to report to law enforcement authorities any gunshot or stab wound treated or observed by you, or any serious physical harm to persons that you know or have reasonable cause to believe resulted from an offense of violence then you're guilty of failure to report a crime; a misdemeanor of the second degree.
If you discover the body or acquire first knowledge of a person's death and fail to report the death immediately to a physician whom you know is treating the deceased for a condition from which death at such time would not be unexpected, or to a law enforcement officer, an ambulance service, an emergency squad (or the coroner in a political subdivision in which the body is discovered, the death is believed to have occurred, or knowledge concerning the death is obtained) then you're guilty of failure to report knowledge of a death, a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.
Under this section, persons are required only to inform authorities of felonies of which they have knowledge, and are not required to attempt apprehension of the offender. The rationale for requiring that serious crimes be reported is that effective crime prevention and law enforcement depend significantly on the cooperation of the public.
There you have it. Fifteen crimes.
I've seen some chatter on the boards concerning citizen's arrest. Here's what Ohio has to say on the subject, and about the rights of the one arrested:
a. When any person may arrest (§ 2935.04).
When a felony has been committed, or there is reasonable ground to believe that a felony has been committed, you may without a warrant arrest another whom you have reasonable cause to believe is guilty of the offense, and detain him/her until a warrant can be obtained.
b. Duty of private person making arrest (§ 2935.06).
A private person who has made an arrest pursuant to section 2935.04 of the Revised Code or detention pursuant to section 2935.041 [2935.04.1] of the Revised Code shall forthwith take the person arrested before the most convenient judge or clerk of a court of record or before a magistrate, or deliver such person to an officer authorized to execute criminal warrants who shall, without unnecessary delay, take such person before the court or magistrate having jurisdiction of the offense.
The officer may, but if he does not, the private person shall file or cause to be filed in such court or before such magistrate an affidavit stating the offense for which the person was arrested.
c. Rights of person arrested (§ 2935.14).
If the person arrested is unable to offer sufficient bail or, if the offense charged be a felony, he shall, prior to being confined or removed from the county of arrest, as the case may be, be speedily permitted facilities to communicate with an attorney at law of his own choice, or to communicate with at least one relative or other person for the purpose of obtaining counsel (or in cases of misdemeanors or ordinance violation for the purpose of arranging bail).
He shall not thereafter be confined or removed from the county or from the situs of initial detention until such attorney has had reasonable opportunity to confer with him privately, or other person to arrange bail, under such security measures as may be necessary under the circumstances.
Whoever, being a police officer in charge of a prisoner, or the custodian of any jail or place of confinement, violates this section shall be fined not less than one hundred nor more than five hundred dollars or imprisoned not more than thirty days, or both.
Remember, this ain't legal advice or nuthin', but it's a good place to start if you don't really know what the law says.
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punkboy_jerm
 
location:
Montreal
Gender: Male
| |  | Re: Know your law. Seriously
<Reply # 1 on 10/3/2003 4:00 AM >
|  | | | Its very important to know your rights with the police!
You need to know what the kkkops can and can't do...trust it could save you from a night in jail!
Portfolio and blog:
http://www.ibrokeup.net
http://www.escapeisathand.com |
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MothMan
Noble Donor
location:
The Gem City
Gender: Male
If you didn't bring back any pictures with you then you obviously weren't there!
| | Re: Know your law. Seriously
<Reply # 2 on 10/3/2003 6:44 AM >
| | | | Exactly.
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Krenta
location:
Saint Paul, MN
Nope, wasn't me.
| | Re: Know your law. Seriously
<Reply # 3 on 10/3/2003 6:05 PM >
| | | |
Having posted similar things here and elsewhere, I thought I'd mention the one concern I've had, which may not apply to everyone, but deserves mention. Once you've posted a thread or post like that, you've shot to hell any hopes of ever being able to plead ignorance with regards to an offense you've committed. Granted, I probably make it difficult on myself by being fairly easily identifiable; just from the information I've posted here, pictures in particular, most smart cookies should be able to identify me in under ten minutes... Of course, the whole "plead ignorance" thing only really works if you're a juevenile... It's a good idea to know your laws, but sometimes that knowledge isn't something you want to share. Just my thoughts, from an admittedly pretty paranoid perspective. That, and I probably trust cops (not the "system", just the officers at the bottom of it) more than most people here... Still, food for thought, eh?
Have Speed Graphic, Will Travel. |
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MothMan
Noble Donor
location:
The Gem City
Gender: Male
If you didn't bring back any pictures with you then you obviously weren't there!
| | Re: Know your law. Seriously
<Reply # 4 on 10/3/2003 9:10 PM >
| | | | Definitely food for thought. Myself, I don't trust coppers any more than I trust any other stranger -- the occupation of law enforcement does not automatically engender trust in me. But... that's me. Skeptical. Cynical. Always wondering what someone's agenda is.
I wouldn't try the "plead ignorance" routine. Every cop has heard it before, and if it's a felony offense, you'll likely get charged even if you WERE truly ignorant of the crime.
When I posted this I just figured that explorers in general might like to have a vague idea of how the law slices up crimes, and how it may be applied the next time you or I UE.
Thanks for the input!
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Krenta
location:
Saint Paul, MN
Nope, wasn't me.
| | Re: Know your law. Seriously
<Reply # 5 on 10/3/2003 10:13 PM >
| | | |
I wouldn't necessarily try the "plead ignorance" line either, but if charged with a felony, my lawyer might want to include that in a defense. That was kind of the point I was trying to make. "My client didn't realize that it's a class 3 felony to pick his nose in a utility tunnel containing electrical cabling conducting more than 220 volts" isn't going to fly real well when the prosecutor pulls up a publicly-searchable post I made a month earlier outlining the laws of my province regarding criminal hygeine violations on or in critical infrastructure. Some state or local laws (remember, we can't all be lucky enough to live in Canada, eh?) include wonderful phrases along the lines of "whomever knowingly and with intent to commit an offense...", which is where a lot of "plead ignorance" defenses come from. But by posting about one's local laws, they pretty much kill their odds of having plausible deniability, being able to say they were unaware it's an offense to do this, that, or the other thing.
I dunno. Just a paranoid idea, really, and a long-winded one at that. 
Have Speed Graphic, Will Travel. |
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MothMan
Noble Donor
location:
The Gem City
Gender: Male
If you didn't bring back any pictures with you then you obviously weren't there!
| | Re: Know your law. Seriously
<Reply # 6 on 10/4/2003 12:05 AM >
| | | | Yeah, that nose thing... Man, it's got me into more trouble...
I see what you're saying, I really do. Can't really claim to be dumber than a stick after I've posted all that law schtuff. But it occurs to me that MOST of what I've read on the boards, about run - don't run, cooperate - don't cooperate, etc. seem to be written by theorists. In other words, s/he has never been caught, charged, sentenced, released and so on.
There's room in the discussion for a perspective that speaks to the other side, i.e. from one who has gone through the mill. I have, and it hasn't changed a thing. I'll still explore, my experience is just broader now.
[last edit 10/4/2003 12:06 AM by MothMan - edited 1 times]
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CMH
Gender: Male
| | Re: Know your law. Seriously
<Reply # 7 on 10/4/2003 1:50 PM >
| | | | Great topic MothMan, very well researched and thought-out.
Something I thought deserved mention... Know your law, and know your police too. The departments vary by city. In my home town, they are like bullies toward anyone they suspect might be on drugs (ages 11-24 or so). They are very childish and unproffesional, and their incident reports are wildly innacurate. In the city next to mine, they are very courteous and display excellent judgement and proffesionalism. These are people who take their uniform seriously.
If you're going against the type of immature "This badge makes me your GOD, punk!!" cops, your best bet is to keep your trap shut, especially if you are a minor. They are trained (and it doesn't take a brain surgeon) to just keep asking questions until they find a discrepancy to pick at. It's even easier with two people, one is bound to say something a little different, even if both are trying to be truthful.
"It's funnier that way." |
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MothMan
Noble Donor
location:
The Gem City
Gender: Male
If you didn't bring back any pictures with you then you obviously weren't there!
| | Re: Know your law. Seriously
<Reply # 8 on 10/4/2003 8:35 PM >
| | | | Good point -- knowing your cops. And knowing the climate your city and county peace officers are working in. I hadn't thought of that. For good or bad, I tend to distrust them all to the same degree; I'm not partial.
I HAVE experienced some VERY professional and courteous police officers. It's rather more the exception than the common occurrence, I'm afraid. But yeah, you got a good point.
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GnomeToys
location:
West Lafayette, IN
Gender: Male
West Siiiiide
| |  | Re: Know your law. Seriously
<Reply # 9 on 10/16/2003 5:40 PM >
|  | | | I have absolutely no faith in police and their ability to properly follow the 4th amendment, for example, which they usually view as a hinderance to their jobs.
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Johnny Bravo
location:
more than 6 feet under (WI)
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Know your law. Seriously
<Reply # 10 on 10/28/2003 9:35 PM >
| | | | All that I can say is NEVER trust a pig. They will say anything to scare you or to try to ease you up, to confessing.
I was nailed for tresspassing. What really worked in my favor was sloppy police work. The pigs were sweeting, well like pigs & were all over the place like they were on crack or something. Well they thought I was a terrorist & a nazy (Ein Volk Ein Reich Ein Fuhrer! lol) Seriously they accused me of being a nazi terrorist that was agenst the gov. Anyways they gave me shit about having the feds taking over the investigation & that tours of the place were given all I had to do was ask.
Well acting like I was a drooling retard that only had a mental capacity of a 5 year old worked out very well, I never did have to pay the fine & never heard back from anyone about it.
I dont know much law, but tresspassing is petty crime (if you want to call it a crim) that only deserves a slap on the wrist. 8 foot fence, a sign that hinted at no trespassing & I really didnt even get a slap on the wrist, just a little scare.
Fear & quilt can be seen in you facial expressions & in body jesters, also an unwillingness to corporate, is a dead giveaway that you know you were doing something wrong or have something to hide.
[last edit 1/23/2004 9:38 PM by Johnny Bravo - edited 2 times]
adventure without risk is disneyland http://www.infiltraterz.com |
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vote robotlican
location:
OH
the OTHER constant robotic menace.
| | Re: Know your law. Seriously
<Reply # 11 on 1/20/2004 1:31 AM >
| | | | if I'm reading this correctly, it's unlawful in ohio for a private citizen to detain someone on the grounds that they may have committed a misdemeanor... the cross-referencing towards the top should be useful.
http://house.state.oh.us has the full code online.
§ 2935.04. When any person may arrest.
When a felony has been committed, or there is reasonable ground to believe that a felony has been committed, any person without a warrant may arrest another whom he has reasonable cause to believe is guilty of the offense, and detain him until a warrant can be obtained.
HISTORY: GC § 13432-2; 113 v 123(140), ch 11, § 2; Bureau of Code Revision. Eff 10-1-53.
Cross-References to Related Sections
Arrest by -
Cemetery association employee of person found violating rules, RC § 1721.19.
Private person, RC § 2935.06.
Arrest of -
Child, RC § 5139.52.
Convict or prisoner violating pardon or parole, RC § 2941.46.
Parolees, RC § 2301.31.
Probationer, RC § 2951.08.
Felony defined, RC § 2901.02.
Immunity of federal law enforcement officers, RC § 9.88.
Ohio Rules
Arrest without warrant, CrimR 4(E)(2).
Comparative Legislation
When any person may arrest:
CA - Penal Code §§ 834, 837
IL - Comp Stat Ann ch 725 § 5/107-3
IN - Code § 35-33-1-4
KY - Rev Stat Ann § 431.005
MI - Comp Laws Ann §§ 764.14, 764.16
NY - Crim Pro Law § 140.30
Text Discussion
Time for initial appearance. Ohio Crim. Prac. & Pro. § 3.101
Warrantless arrest for a felony. Ohio Crim. Prac. & Pro. § 1.102
Research Aids
Arrest without warrant:
Am-Jur2d: Arrest § 37 et seq
When any person may arrest:
O-Jur3d: Crim L §§ 2106, 2114
ALR
Liability of private citizen or his employer for injury or damage to third person resulting from firing of shots at fleeing criminal. 29 ALR4th 144.
Private person's authority, in making arrest for felony, to shoot or kill alleged felon. 32 ALR3d 1078.
Validity, in state criminal trial, of arrest without warrant by identified peace officer outside of jurisdiction, when not in fresh pursuit. 34 ALR4th 328.
Law Review
United States Supreme Court 1984-1985 Term: criminal law and procedure highlights. B.J. George, Jr. 16 CAP. U.L. Rev. 159, 164 (1986).
When police lie: federal civil rights liability for wrongful arrest. Comment. 10 Ohio N.U.L. Rev. 493 (1983).
CASE NOTES AND OAG
The issuance of a warrant of arrest pursuant to RC § 2935.04 by a clerk of courts, a nonjudicial officer, is not a violation of the Constitution of the United States:.
A private security guard was not making an arrest for the commission of a "felony" which he had reasonable grounds to believe was being committed in his presence where he did not know that the arrestee had been previously convicted of possession of a hallucinogen, which is a felony if it is a second offense:.
A private individual does not have authority to arrest for a misdemeanor; it is only in the case of the commission of a felony that a private person may detain the accused for a reasonable time and without unnecessary delay in order that a warrant may be issued:.
This section imposes no duty upon a citizen to make an arrest, but has conferred upon the citizen the right to make an arrest where a felony has been committed, or there is reasonable ground to believe that a felony has been committed:;.
Where he did not believe the defendant to be guilty of a felony at the time he intervened, a customer was not privileged to detain the defendant pursuant to the citizen's arrest provisions of RC § 2935.04, and the defendant's use of force to resist the customer's improper attempt to detain him could not give rise to a charge of robbery based on the underlying theft of car parts:.
Under the provisions of RC § 2935.04, any person who has reasonable grounds to believe a felony has been committed may make an arrest without a warrant:.
State action to support a civil rights claim cannot be found where RC § 2935.04 does not compel detention of shoplifters, but merely authorizes and acquiesces in certain procedures for detention if a private party elects to do so:.
It is well established under Ohio law that a police officer may be held personally liable where use of excessive force or negligence results in personal injury or death and even a justifiable use of force will not insulate an officer from liability if this otherwise justifiable conduct is negligently performed:.
In Ohio, any person who has reasonable grounds to believe a felony has been committed may detain a suspect until a warrant may be obtained. A police officer may accomplish this detention by the use of "reasonable force":.
An arrest without a warrant is constitutionally invalid unless the arresting officer had probable cause to make it at that time; to have probable cause, the arresting officer must have sufficient information derived from a reasonably trustworthy source to warrant a prudent man in believing that a felony has been committed and that it has been committed by the accused:;.
The arresting officers had probable cause to suspect the defendant of the offense which had been committed where it was within their knowledge that: (1) the assailant must have been known to the victim, since there was no sign of forcible entry; (2) it was an offense of a violent nature; (3) the defendant was known to the victim, having rented her upstairs apartment and had a previous record, including sexual offenses; and (4) he was a large and powerful man and was known to have a violent temper:.
In assessing whether there is probable cause for an arrest, under RC § 2935.04, evidence within the knowledge of the arresting officer may be considered, even though the evidence, such as hearsay, is not legally competent evidence in a criminal trial:.
Where a police officer has received information over the police radio and that information is such as to give the officer reasonable grounds to believe a felony has been committed, such officer has probable cause to make an arrest:.
"Reasonable cause" for the arrest of a person by police officers without a warrant exists where such officers acted on information furnished by the police department of another city, and the defendant fails to show by evidence that the arresting officers had no reasonable cause to believe that a felony had been committed:.
Reasonable ground or probable cause for warrantless arrest may be provided by the arresting officer's own observations, credible information from a reliable informant, or corroborated information from a less than reliable informant:.
Where a felony is claimed to have been committed, proof of probable cause for arrest without a warrant rests on facts shown by substantial and credible evidence sufficient to warrant a man of reasonable caution in the belief that such an offense had been committed and the mere opinion, conclusion, or belief, standing alone, of the arresting officer that such act had been committed is without probative value and insufficient to justify such arrest:.
Mere suspicion on the part of a police officer that a person who is otherwise conducting himself in a peaceful and orderly manner is unlawfully in possession of a concealed weapon will not justify an arrest and seizure of a weapon found upon him in his possession, without a warrant for the arrest or search:.
This section authorizes private citizens to arrest without warrant, but the persons arrested can only be detained until "a warrant can be obtained":;.
Revised Code § 2935.04 authorizes the warrantless arrest of a person for a misdemeanor when the arresting officer knows that the person has a previous conviction which will enhance the misdemeanor to a felony (RC § 2935.04, applied):.
Revised Code § 2935.04 authorizes any person, including a constable, to make a warrantless arrest when a felony has been committed or there is reasonable ground to believe that a felony has been committed and when the person making the arrest has reasonable cause to believe that the person arrested is guilty of the offense; the person making the arrest need not have viewed the commission of the offense. If a constable has knowledge of a previous conviction which will enhance an offense of domestic violence from a misdemeanor to a felony, and if the provisions of RC § 2935.04 are satisfied, the constable may arrest the offender under RC § 2935.04, even though the constable has not viewed the commission of the offense:.
An off-duty municipal police officer may arrest and detain another person who he has reasonable cause to believe is guilty of a felony until a warrant can be obtained, as may any other citizen, pursuant to RC § 2935.04:.
thank god for the worker bees |
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MothMan
Noble Donor
location:
The Gem City
Gender: Male
If you didn't bring back any pictures with you then you obviously weren't there!
| | Re: Know your law. Seriously
<Reply # 12 on 1/20/2004 2:50 AM >
| | | | Posted by vote robotlican
if I'm reading this correctly, it's unlawful in ohio for a private citizen to detain someone on the grounds that they may have committed a misdemeanor... |
You are reading correctly. Arresting (or attempting to arrest) somebody absent the evidence of a felony is unlawful in Ohio. When I resist -- which I will -- I'll not be resisting arrest, I'll be refusing to cooperate with an ignorant person.
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Ryzom
location:
Piedmont, CA
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Know your law. Seriously
<Reply # 13 on 1/20/2004 4:08 AM >
| | | | Yeah I think it is VERY important to know your rights in fact I normally do some research, and go through some scenarios in my head.
However I don't plan on getting caught in the act. If that happens I mostly know my rights, and I know I am SOL
I mostly concentrate on when the police can and can't arrest you since this is where the most cases are thrown out, and the most people get off. If the cops do anything illegal (i.e. illegal searches, or if they detain you for longer than a certain time, there are millions of little nitches you can get off on) you can get off scott free.
If that fails, I normally print out some papers on something like if I were going to a place that had historical significance I would print out some stuff on that get a binder and a couple papers and maybe take like a half page of fake notes and then claim I was doing a school project.
"They're dead, and you're going to be next." |
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Lord Nat, The Ex-God of Chaos
location:
Maplewood, MN
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Know your law. Seriously
<Reply # 14 on 1/20/2004 7:34 AM >
| | | | Knowing the law does nothing for me.
Cops just HATE me (REALLY REALLY HATE ME!) and will try to bring me in no matter what.
I don't know why they hate me so much... It's like I have a smell or some thing that drives them mad.
Even when I am just in a mall the rent-a-cops walk behind me and act like I am about to do some thing.
I even get the same thing online with mods.
Maybe I just look like a freedom fighter or some thing...
Forever hiding from the Evil SpellingMonkey Bot. |
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Ryzom
location:
Piedmont, CA
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Know your law. Seriously
<Reply # 15 on 1/21/2004 12:57 AM >
| | | | Posted by Lord Nat, The Ex-God of Chaos
Knowing the law does nothing for me.
Cops just HATE me (REALLY REALLY HATE ME!) and will try to bring me in no matter what.
I don't know why they hate me so much... It's like I have a smell or some thing that drives them mad.
Even when I am just in a mall the rent-a-cops walk behind me and act like I am about to do some thing.
I even get the same thing online with mods.
Maybe I just look like a freedom fighter or some thing...
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Well we are on some sort of security alert and they prolly think you are a terrorist, I mean how could you not be a terrorist? I mean everyone is a terrorist these days.
My sister goes to boarding school, and she was waiting for some of the korean kids to get through customs and everything. And they didn't know english very well and this 11 year old korean kid accidently got north and south mixxed up because english isn't his first language and said he was from north korea.
They held him for 4 hours in customs... wtf?
[EDIT]
P.S. Anyone know the penalties that are associated with each of those charges? Like, fines or jail time and what not? like about how much money is each.
[last edit 1/21/2004 1:06 AM by Ryzom - edited 1 times]
"They're dead, and you're going to be next." |
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Jester
location:
Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Know your law. Seriously
<Reply # 16 on 1/21/2004 5:55 PM >
|  | | | Posted by Lord Nat, The Ex-God of Chaos
Knowing the law does nothing for me.
Cops just HATE me (REALLY REALLY HATE ME!) and will try to bring me in no matter what.
I don't know why they hate me so much... It's like I have a smell or some thing that drives them mad.
Even when I am just in a mall the rent-a-cops walk behind me and act like I am about to do some thing.
I even get the same thing online with mods.
Maybe I just look like a freedom fighter or some thing...
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I don't think any mods have it in for you here nat.
I don't really think you look like a freedom fighter, but thats just my opinion.
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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MothMan
Noble Donor
location:
The Gem City
Gender: Male
If you didn't bring back any pictures with you then you obviously weren't there!
| | Re: Know your law. Seriously
<Reply # 17 on 1/22/2004 5:11 PM >
| | | | Posted by Lord Nat, The Ex-God of Chaos
Knowing the law does nothing for me.
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Yeah, me neither. Till I need to use it.
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vote robotlican
location:
OH
the OTHER constant robotic menace.
| | Re: Know your law. Seriously
<Reply # 18 on 1/23/2004 8:03 AM >
| | | | Posted by Jester
I don't think any mods have it in for you here nat.
I don't really think you look like a freedom fighter, but thats just my opinion.
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I dunno dude... I did a google image search for "lord nat" and this is what came up...
thank god for the worker bees |
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Jester
location:
Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Know your law. Seriously
<Reply # 19 on 1/23/2004 1:52 PM >
| | | | Well all I'm saying is I doubt the cops take a look at Nat and the first thing that comes to mind is "Oh my god, it's a freedom fighter!"...
Posted by Lord Nat, The Ex-God of Chaos
That's me
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And since he probably doesn't introduce himself to the police as "Lord Nat", I doubt they'd make any connection to a pic like you found for the name...
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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