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GrayFox
    
location:
Allston MA
Gender: Male
A Star of CCTV
 |  |  | Re: Second Floor Window
<Reply # 80 on 1/21/2006 5:28 PM >
|  | | | Posted by j0lt
Yes, because you NEED to get in there to do your hobby. It's ABSOLUTELY IMPERATIVE that you enter that building, otherwise, nobody will believe that you're an 31337 Gravitationally Challenged Sniper d00d.
Idiot.
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stupid leet speak...i couldnt care less if people believed me if i went into a place...i saw a place that i wanted to explore, and i went in....end of discussion because i really do think this has gone for long enough and its just people saying the same thing over and over, myself included
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Ultramasturbatron
| | Re: Second Floor Window
<Reply # 81 on 1/21/2006 5:52 PM >
| | | | Whether someone cuts a chain...or someone else has done it for him is a moot point. Because if the cops or security show up, I highly doubt they're going to care.
Smashing windows is almost the same point, although it is vandalism to the building. Personally, I wouldn't break the window just because I wouldn't have a way of resecuring the area.
Cutting the chain if I had to, possibly. But, I'd use my lockpicks or collect up some working bumpkeys before hand. Or, if anything, spend the money for my own lock to resecure the cut chain so my actions didn't cause anyone else to get hurt.
Eluding security or cops within a structure, I think it even more stupid than vandalism. Security could quite possibly be carrying firearms, and the police obviously would be. Not to mention if they get a hold of you for arrest. Just increasing the threat level to them.
But, that's a whole other topic.
In the end, we're all criminals back biting each other on who's less of a criminal.
[last edit 1/21/2006 6:12 PM by Ultramasturbatron - edited 1 times]
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InsertNameHere
 
location:
North County San Diego
Gender: Male
We were playing flashlight tag, officer!
| |  | Re: Second Floor Window
<Reply # 82 on 1/21/2006 8:03 PM >
| | | | Posted by Daghita
Whether someone cuts a chain...or someone else has done it for him is a moot point. Because if the cops or security show up, I highly doubt they're going to care.
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I've always wondered about this....has anyone ever gone to a building with broken windows/chains/locks and gotten nailed for the damage when the cops showed up?
A cage went in search of a bird. |
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Jester
location:
Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Second Floor Window
<Reply # 83 on 1/22/2006 5:59 AM >
|  | | | Posted by Daghita
Whether someone cuts a chain...or someone else has done it for him is a moot point.
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It's not moot. Cut your way into a place and get caught with a hacksaw and there will be a serious difference. Even if you take it back to your car, it can just as easily be used as evidence against you...
Posted by Daghita
In the end, we're all criminals back biting each other on who's less of a criminal.
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That's a lovely bit of logic I've seen used time and time again. That's saying one criminal isn't any worse than another ? There are many levels of criminal activity, as well as morally wrong actions as well. Trespassing is not the equal of destruction of property and insinuating it is, is a falsehood.
People seem to behave like all these places we go are truly abandoned. Everything is owned. These places are still owned by someone that isn't you. Regardless of what they're plans are for the places, it doesn't make it your right to damage or destroy parts of it, or anything else you don't own. Going there and viewing these places, while against the law, isn't destructive nor causing a change to a property that isn't yours to change.
I fully support a person's right to free action, in any regard that doesn't effect other people without their consent. Want to break the windows in your own house, that's fine, you're the one who has to deal with it. Break them anywhere you don't own, and it's someone else you're causing problems for, which really isn't your right to free action. That's enforcing your choice on other people.
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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GrayFox
location:
Allston MA
Gender: Male
A Star of CCTV
| | | Re: Second Floor Window
<Reply # 84 on 1/22/2006 6:02 AM >
| | | | As opposed to what, you forcing your ethics on people that don't have the same ones?
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Jester
location:
Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Second Floor Window
<Reply # 85 on 1/22/2006 6:21 AM >
| | | | Posted by GrayFox
As opposed to what, you forcing your ethics on people that don't have the same ones?
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Ethics is a sliding scale.
In the middle, you harm nothing, whether for positive or negative impact.
I am neither advocating doing good, or doing ill.
I've said many times, I don't expect most people to hold themselves to my ethical standards. I'm not asking or telling you to, and frankly, I doubt you could if you tried.
But you fail to grasp the concept of personal freedom clearly.
Your personal freedom extends from yourself to what you have rightful claim to. For you to destroy your car, is your choice. To destroy someone else's car would not fall into your personal freedoms. It is taking a personal freedom (of the other person in question) away.
Same applies to destruction of any property that isn't yours. You are simply showing zero respect for what belongs to someone else. City, company, individual, it matters not, it's not yours and destroying any portion of it isn't your right as it creates a lasting change to something you have no right to change.
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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j0lt
location:
Kobe, Japan
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Second Floor Window
<Reply # 86 on 1/22/2006 7:41 AM >
| | | | Posted by GrayFox
stupid leet speak...i couldnt care less if people believed me if i went into a place...i saw a place that i wanted to explore, and i went in....end of discussion because i really do think this has gone for long enough and its just people saying the same thing over and over, myself included
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Good, you can recognize leet speak. (I was using it to mock you, but I see that was a little too subtle)
You were using the argument that you HAD to get into the building as justification for smashing a window/breaking whatever else. Now you're saying it was a place you WANTED to get into.
Point is, if you can't find a way in without destroying something, go find somewhere you can, or better yet, learn a new skill that will enable you to say, enter through a different means than you are currently capable.
edit: In other words, work smarter not harder.
[last edit 1/22/2006 7:41 AM by j0lt - edited 1 times]
j0lt: Larger than life and twice as ugly! |
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GrayFox
location:
Allston MA
Gender: Male
A Star of CCTV
| | | Re: Second Floor Window
<Reply # 87 on 1/22/2006 7:42 AM >
| | | | ill learn how to walk through walls....then i can join the superfriends!!!
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j0lt
location:
Kobe, Japan
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Second Floor Window
<Reply # 88 on 1/22/2006 7:46 AM >
| | | | Posted by GrayFox
ill learn how to walk through walls....then i can join the superfriends!!!
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You can be Aquaman! 
(and the point of my suggestion was, look at the title of this thread... got any ideas yet?)
[last edit 1/22/2006 7:47 AM by j0lt - edited 1 times]
j0lt: Larger than life and twice as ugly! |
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GrayFox
location:
Allston MA
Gender: Male
A Star of CCTV
| | | Re: Second Floor Window
<Reply # 89 on 1/22/2006 8:15 AM >
| | | | collapsable ladder?....or the ability to leap 1 story in a single bound
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Jester
location:
Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Second Floor Window
<Reply # 90 on 1/22/2006 8:40 AM >
| | | | I love discussing things like this with people like you, Grayfox. Why ? Because I know you've got no way to refute anything I say. You can bitch and whine all you want, but the fact remains that what I've said is right.
Please feel free to demonstrate how I'm wrong here:
It doesn't matter if it's the chain or a window, you're damaging property that isn't yours. The only thing that can make you a vandal is your deeds, and you've chosen them. That makes you a vandal.
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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j0lt
location:
Kobe, Japan
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Second Floor Window
<Reply # 91 on 1/22/2006 11:07 AM >
| | | | Posted by GrayFox
collapsable ladder?....or the ability to leap 1 story in a single bound
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Actually, if the window is within 12 feet from the ground, and the wall is sturdy and I have enough of a runway, I can make it by running up the wall a bit and grabbing the ledge.
Of course, jagged bits of glass pose a slight problem. :p
Collapsable ladder isn't too bad an idea, as long as it's not a hassle to carry or retrieve from the top.
j0lt: Larger than life and twice as ugly! |
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GrayFox
location:
Allston MA
Gender: Male
A Star of CCTV
| | | Re: Second Floor Window
<Reply # 92 on 1/22/2006 2:27 PM >
| | | | Am I a vandal, not to the extent you are saying. Sweet jesus I cost the poor city $3. I'm not tagging, i'm not smashing, I'm not burning. I cut one goddamn chain. And your not right, you just think you are right. I see nothing wrong with what I did and you won't see anything right with what I did and I tried to drop this thing because we are at an impass with that but you had to be a stubborn jackass about it.
[last edit 1/22/2006 2:29 PM by GrayFox - edited 1 times]
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Ultramasturbatron
| | Re: Second Floor Window
<Reply # 93 on 1/22/2006 5:46 PM >
| | | | Being right or wrong on the situation is nothing more than the judgement of the person or people making that decision. Some people here would say that breaking even the smallest thing at a location is wrong. Others would say it's right to do that.
Whatever your opinion maybe, forcing it on others doesn't make it right or wrong. So Jester, nothing that you've said makes the situation 100% right.
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Jester
location:
Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Second Floor Window
<Reply # 94 on 1/22/2006 8:18 PM >
| | | | Posted by GrayFox
Am I a vandal, not to the extent you are saying. Sweet jesus I cost the poor city $3. I'm not tagging, i'm not smashing, I'm not burning. I cut one goddamn chain. And your not right, you just think you are right. I see nothing wrong with what I did and you won't see anything right with what I did and I tried to drop this thing because we are at an impass with that but you had to be a stubborn jackass about it.
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I'm not right ?
So, it is your right to destroy something that doesn't belong to you ?
No, it's not.
It doesn't matter if it's a $3 chain or something worth far more. It isn't yours. What part of that don't you undestand ?
You justify destruction of property because you wanted to. You justify destruction of property because it wasn't valuable... Neither justification holds any weight. Especially when the motivation behind them is laziness and impatience.
Posted by Daghita
Being right or wrong on the situation is nothing more than the judgement of the person or people making that decision. Some people here would say that breaking even the smallest thing at a location is wrong. Others would say it's right to do that.
Whatever your opinion maybe, forcing it on others doesn't make it right or wrong. So Jester, nothing that you've said makes the situation 100% right.
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I can list off far more than enough reasons why breaking something at a site is wrong, from the ethics of the act in question to the penalties associated with that act if you happen to get caught. Plenty of logical and reasonable reasons.
The argument for damaging something like this ? Because he wanted to ? Because he's lazy ? because he's impatient ?
Common sense is in short supply here apparently.
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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Ultramasturbatron
| | Re: Second Floor Window
<Reply # 95 on 1/23/2006 12:15 AM >
| | | | Posted by Jester
I can list off far more than enough reasons why breaking something at a site is wrong, from the ethics of the act in question to the penalties associated with that act if you happen to get caught. Plenty of logical and reasonable reasons.
The argument for damaging something like this ? Because he wanted to ? Because he's lazy ? because he's impatient ?
Common sense is in short supply here apparently.
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I can list plenty of reasons as to why it's right and why it's wrong. The list of the reasons isn't the point. The judgement call for them is...what YOU think is right and what OTHERS think is right could very well be different.
I think you forcing your opinions of what are right and wrong are completely bogus. Who cares if he just wanted too, for being overweight, lazy, or impatient. You can judge it all you want, but that doesn't make you the "holier than thou" of the situation. If you don't respect his judgement call fine. But resorting to "grammar school attempts" to make yourself right and him wrong is pretty pathetic.
You complain about people damaging a site to get into it. But, you use the same entrances that others have created in such ways. That's like bitching about animal rights and how they're being used to test makeup products...but still using makeup regardless.
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Jester
location:
Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Second Floor Window
<Reply # 96 on 1/23/2006 2:45 AM >
| | | | Posted by Daghita
I can list plenty of reasons as to why it's right and why it's wrong. The list of the reasons isn't the point. The judgement call for them is...what YOU think is right and what OTHERS think is right could very well be different.
I think you forcing your opinions of what are right and wrong are completely bogus. Who cares if he just wanted too, for being overweight, lazy, or impatient. You can judge it all you want, but that doesn't make you the "holier than thou" of the situation. If you don't respect his judgement call fine. But resorting to "grammar school attempts" to make yourself right and him wrong is pretty pathetic.
You complain about people damaging a site to get into it. But, you use the same entrances that others have created in such ways. That's like bitching about animal rights and how they're being used to test makeup products...but still using makeup regardless.
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Actually, I've written quite a bit about how we, as urban explorers are parasites, happily using entrances that vandals and thieves would make. But there is a difference between utilizing something that has happened which you did not cause to happen or control, and specifically doing so yourself. If something is in an enterable state that I did not cause, i'm not impacting it or anyone else by utilizing it. If I make such an opening, through vandalism and destruction, I am going to be the cause that created the effect. Big difference.
Unless you support a chaos theory of existance, simply using a free will choice as an excuse or rationalization for these events doesn't hold any water. your free will to act extends to your person and your property, anything you have a claim to. On the other hand, your free will and freedom to act does not extend upon other people. when you do something that impacts another person, you are no longer effecting your self, you are affecting another.
Like I said, if he wants to smash something he owns, regardless of what a waste it could be, that's totally his choice. If he wants to smash something, no matter how cheap or valuable it may be, that does not belong to him, it is not his right to make that choice.
If I want to key your car, it's not my right to do so is it ? but if I decide it should be my right, you'd supoport that decision because it's my judgement call ?
[last edit 1/23/2006 2:47 AM by Jester - edited 1 times]
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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Ultramasturbatron
| | Re: Second Floor Window
<Reply # 97 on 1/23/2006 4:39 AM >
| | | | Posted by Jester
Actually, I've written quite a bit about how we, as urban explorers are parasites, happily using entrances that vandals and thieves would make. But there is a difference between utilizing something that has happened which you did not cause to happen or control, and specifically doing so yourself. If something is in an enterable state that I did not cause, i'm not impacting it or anyone else by utilizing it. If I make such an opening, through vandalism and destruction, I am going to be the cause that created the effect. Big difference.
Unless you support a chaos theory of existance, simply using a free will choice as an excuse or rationalization for these events doesn't hold any water. your free will to act extends to your person and your property, anything you have a claim to. On the other hand, your free will and freedom to act does not extend upon other people. when you do something that impacts another person, you are no longer effecting your self, you are affecting another.
Like I said, if he wants to smash something he owns, regardless of what a waste it could be, that's totally his choice. If he wants to smash something, no matter how cheap or valuable it may be, that does not belong to him, it is not his right to make that choice.
If I want to key your car, it's not my right to do so is it ? but if I decide it should be my right, you'd supoport that decision because it's my judgement call ?
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If you decide to key the car that's in my possession for whatever cause you think is needed, I support that thought. Only at that time can I make an appropriate decision with my own being to decide if it was right or wrong. It's not the cause that makes something right or wrong, it's the judgement made upon it by the beings involved.
Do I agree with smashing in windows to get into places, or taking screws out of boarded up windows, or cutting chains? I do now with only because of the discussion we've been having. A few days ago I wouldn't have agreed with taking screws off of boarded up windows, or cutting chains. But now, only with the circumstance that I'm able to resecure the area so others wouldn't be harmed because of what I did, regardless of structural damage.
In my opinion, it is his right to smash a window, or kick in a door. Because ultimately all materialistic items don't belong to anyone. Just as it's your right to key the car that's in my possession. Does it make it right or wrong? That's up to the people involved with the situation, and even those opinions will be different.
I would agree with your comments on the parasitic nature of UE'ers though, I'll have to search the forums and your journals to see the comments you've made about it. But, in my opinion, using those same entrances that others have created through destruction, you are supporting their actions by using those very entrances.
[last edit 1/23/2006 4:40 AM by Ultramasturbatron - edited 1 times]
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Jester
location:
Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Second Floor Window
<Reply # 98 on 1/23/2006 4:56 AM >
| | | | Posted by Daghita
I would agree with your comments on the parasitic nature of UE'ers though, I'll have to search the forums and your journals to see the comments you've made about it. But, in my opinion, using those same entrances that others have created through destruction, you are supporting their actions by using those very entrances.
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Supporting an action would be relevant if by utilizing the event, you promoted the event to be enacted again. Example. I eat meat, even though I didn't kill the animal, my use of it causes more to be killed.
By my going through a window some kids smashed, I do not cause the event to be enacted again.
It is wholly parasitic of me to use the entrance, but not supporting the action that caused it. If I saw a kid getting ready to throw a rock into a place I was wanting an entrance to, I would without hesitation, try to stop that kid from doing so parasitic, yes. Supportive of the events, no..
As for your belief that materialistic goods don't belong to anyone... well that's a great theory, but one that won't hold up in any way with any meaning. You can feel that all you want, but in society all around the globe, things are very much owned by people. You can pretend that if I keyed your car you'd be blase about it, but I sincerely doubt you're showing any honesty there. If I just up and damaged your property with no reason otehr than I felt like it, you'd be a little upset...
[last edit 1/23/2006 5:01 AM by Jester - edited 1 times]
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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Ultramasturbatron
| | Re: Second Floor Window
<Reply # 99 on 1/23/2006 7:27 AM >
| | | | Posted by Jester
As for your belief that materialistic goods don't belong to anyone... well that's a great theory, but one that won't hold up in any way with any meaning. You can feel that all you want, but in society all around the globe, things are very much owned by people. You can pretend that if I keyed your car you'd be blase about it, but I sincerely doubt you're showing any honesty there. If I just up and damaged your property with no reason otehr than I felt like it, you'd be a little upset...
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Don't pretend to know me when it comes to such things. I've offered my wallet to numerous people numerous times to take what money I had if they'd think their life would improve any bit. And, numerous times in my honest sincerity they've never taken it.
So, key my car...take my things and I'll show you exactly how unmaterialistic I am. It's not the point of my car getting ruined, or a 3 dollar chain getting cut. It doesn't make the situation right or wrong before the dichotomy of the cause. It's simply the person or people making the judgement call as I've said after the situation was in motion.
I'm not saying that I'm not human about decisions that are made against me. If you keyed my car, sure I'd be upset at the fact of the cause of why you thought you should key my car...not the car itself. But again, if I wholly deserved it, then I wouldn't be upset.
If GrayFox or others who decide to break that window, or cut that chain for whatever reason they deemed needed, then to them, they are right. But, people along your mode of thought see it as wrong. Regardless of the sides, ultimately in the universe...it doesn't really matter and it doesn't make anyone less of a person than before.
I'm not trying to change your mind on the situation. But, I think this conversation is going to start getting redundant at this point.
I understand your viewpoint of the situation, just as I do with GrayFox. I lean towards GrayFox's side. But, I do have my limitations. I would do everything in my power to avoid a situation like that and make sure that I had a reasonable way of securing the area again. If I couldn't, then I would just continue to check on the area from time to time to see if opportunities came available. At the same time, if I were with others who didn't share the same viewpoint and didn't want to exercise such rights, then out of respect I wouldn't do such things.
It's late and the conversation is stagnant. All I'll do is agree to disagree with respect at this point.
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Ethics