Infiltration

Jonsered location: Back in New Mexico where I belong Gender: Male Dressed for a scarecrow ball......... \| \| \|	B&E or Exploring? < on 1/6/2006 4:16 PM >

	I'm sure there ahs been a thread on this before, but I didn't find it. I've noticed a lot of comments lately that go something like this: "I'll just cut through the fence" or "pop it off with a crowbar". I know there is a lot of difference of opinion here regarding acceptable methods of entry, but I'm specifically curious about the old timers here. Where do you draw the line? I'm not opposed to doing anything I can repair when I leave, but how about you? I have changed my personal exploring ethics code. From now on it will be: "Take only aimed shots, leave only hobo corpses." Copper scrappers, meth heads and homeless beware. The Jonsered cometh among you, bringing fear and dread.

Walking Talking Poison location: Big Island, Hawaii Gender: Female \| \|	Re: B&E or Exploring? <Reply # 1 on 1/6/2006 6:17 PM >

	Im not a old member of this forum, but I would consider myself a bit seasoned at this whole thing. I have found that usually with houses and such, there is always a way in. Funny I never thought about it until just now, but perhaps the reason for that is because other persons like us left those ways in for others? There is almost always one open window, door, hole in the roof, etc. Other buildings such as older hospitals, state facilities, etc may have some security involved. I used to bring my big old camera bag with me with all my filters and gadgets and say something about needing a quiet place to take pics for a photography class. (Saw a thread in here earlier with some fabulous excuses.) If you time this really good, say when an important game is on, the security is usually more than happy to let you go, in my experiences anyway, so they can get back to the game. Sometimes checking you out for spraypaint, sometimes not. Then there are the "scheduled for destruction" sites. As far as Im concerned, anything goes. Doesnt really matter if you have to break a window, cut a fence, or jimmy a door because soon it will all be rubble anyway. Just my measley 2 cents~! <.·´¯`·.WªLkïng¯\|¯ªLkïngPoïsØN ¸.·´¯`·.¸>

MutantMandias Perverse and Often Baffling location: Atlanta, GA Gender: Male Are you a reporter? Contact me for a UE interview! Also not averse to the the idea of group/anal. \| \|	Re: B&E or Exploring? <Reply # 2 on 1/6/2006 7:03 PM >

	I can't remember ever using force to get into a location. In fact, I tend to feel bad about moving a piece of unphotogenic trash out of the way to get a picture (although I have started to get over this). I have spent years watching places, waiting for openings to happen. True, the openings may well have been created by UE'ers, but more likely by vandals, and occasionally, real ruin. I've even gotten into a place that I had waited patiently for the fence to collapse, and then been prevented by going further inside due to something else obstructing me. And so I waited a few more months for the situation to change, and I got further. But those were my solo days, which lasted about 32 years, from my first UE memory to my first group trip (thanks Roadwolf & Av!). Exploring with a group tends to be a little more aggressive, partly due to a sort of very limited mob mentality, and partly due to the fact that more people have put in an effort to get the experience, so it seems a little more justified to bring the experience out, even if it is resisting. Anyway, on my own, I still would never pry, cut, or force my way in to something. But I'm okay with jumping fences and walls now. I get a little icky feeling when I know about some kind of forced entry in my presence, and, I would definitely bail if it made me uncomfortable enough. mutantMandias may cause dizziness, sexual nightmares, and sleep crime. ++++ mutantMandias has to return some videotapes ++++ Do not taunt mutantMandias mutantMandias is something more than human, more than a computer. mutantMandias is a murderously intelligent, sensually self-programmed, non-being

Walking Talking Poison

location:
Big Island, Hawaii
Gender: Female

Re: B&E or Exploring?
<Reply # 3 on 1/6/2006 7:49 PM >

I have spent years watching places, waiting for openings to happen. True, the openings may well have been created by UE'ers, but more likely by vandals, and occasionally, real ruin.

Yeah forgot to mention that one. Of course some places you go into have had one or numerous windows smashed out, doors removed, etc. The ones I always wondered about tho, are the ones that seem untouched and untampered with. There always seems to be an open window, slightly ajar door, something. I like to think that another UE had been there, maybe just homeless looking for shelter. Whatever it may be, its usually there ;)

<.·´¯`·.WªLkïng¯|¯ªLkïngPoïsØN ¸.·´¯`·.¸>

HillbillyHorus location: Charlottesville Virginia Gender: Male Im in ur government, killin ur d00dz \| \|	Re: B&E or Exploring? <Reply # 4 on 1/6/2006 8:44 PM >

	I once kicked a board in that was blocking up a hole in the wall - the only way in this location. I only kicked in a board and a half though, just enough to squeeze through. Draining is different. If there's a gate over the outfall, or a bolt on the manhole, there's nothing wrong with snapping it, as it doesn't effect the drain or its enjoyability. You can't fall off a mountain.

GrayFox location: Allston MA Gender: Male A Star of CCTV \| \|	Re: B&E or Exploring? <Reply # 5 on 1/8/2006 8:06 AM >

	Usually i just go through the open door but once i did have to deal with a fickle chain to get into a location

Ruck location: Texas Gender: Male \|	Re: B&E or Exploring? <Reply # 6 on 1/8/2006 10:16 AM >

	Anything involving destruction is a no-no with me. Lockpicking is also a no-go. There's a fine line between explorer and criminal. "For the listener, who listens in the snow, And, nothing himself, beholds Nothing that is not there and the nothing that is." ~Wallace Stevens

Mark

Very Noble Donor
location:
South Carolina
Gender: Male

What is a lion, king of the savannah, when hes at the south pole?

Re: B&E or Exploring?
<Reply # 7 on 1/8/2006 10:54 AM >

Posted by Zero Horizon
Anything involving destruction is a no-no with me. Lockpicking is also a no-go. There's a fine line between explorer and criminal.

See this is where I disagree with so many people. If we have two men, one tortures people to death; the other killed someone in gang related violence. Who is more of a criminal, I would say the torturer, however both are still criminals. Different sentences both are still criminals.

We trespass(minus a very few with permission which is fine) but we all start throwing stones at others for certain activities. One might feel less morally obligated to trespassing, but its still a crime just as much as walking into someones summer home. I find it disturbing that some people will castigate someone on here, for relatively small damage(although not good for UE) but in turn do illegal activates.

The major reason I wear gloves, dont cut fences, or break things is because I dont want to leave traces of myself. I figure I never know when someone is going to burn, vandalize, or leave a body around then gloves arent just for safety.

Maybe that thought process is a little esoteric, but much like the guys/girls who use camo I don't wish to get caught. Prevention has always been a safer route then correcting a situation.

"If the threat level goes up its probably because of me." "I am looking for a girl who enjoys headbutting beltbuckles"

Jester location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada Gender: Male Always just out of sight... \| \|	Re: B&E or Exploring? <Reply # 8 on 1/8/2006 12:14 PM >

	I won't do anything that will damage a site, in any way, no ifs ands or buts. I have been in more secure places, without ever damaging anything, than most people on this site will ever consider even trying. Nobody will know I was there unless I post it on the site, and that's how I like it. Doing anything that shows you were there can have repercussions. The place can get mnore secure or in the guards get reemed out when the cut fence is discovered, then when the guard happens to catch someone there he won't be very leniant about it, when he might have been if it hadn't been clear someone had gotten in before... Just tonight, I was in one of the most secure sites around, a place I've wanted to get into for quite some time. Very secure site, the usual barbed wire fences around here, with multiple on site security guards... In and out of there, they haven't got a clue I was in... It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf.

Walking Talking Poison

location:
Big Island, Hawaii
Gender: Female

Re: B&E or Exploring?
<Reply # 9 on 1/8/2006 2:30 PM >

Posted by Mark
The major reason I wear gloves, dont cut fences, or break things is because I dont want to leave traces of myself. I figure I never know when someone is going to burn, vandalize, or leave a body around then gloves arent just for safety.

Wow, Im having a serious DUH moment here. That thought had never crossed my mind. And I must say, after having a few run ins with the cops and judges around here. They would never ever believe me if I told them how my "traces of self" got there. EEK!

<.·´¯`·.WªLkïng¯|¯ªLkïngPoïsØN ¸.·´¯`·.¸>

HillbillyHorus

location:
Charlottesville Virginia
Gender: Male

Im in ur government, killin ur d00dz

Re: B&E or Exploring?
<Reply # 10 on 1/8/2006 2:36 PM >

I hadn't thought of that either. I just saw a thing on Cops the other day where they found a body in a small drainage pipe . . . scared the crap out of me. The clothes were still on, but it was a skeleton. Still though, it wasn't an explorer. No flashlight, headlamp, bag, or skateboard (it was a really small pipe).

You can't fall off a mountain.

Mark

Very Noble Donor
location:
South Carolina
Gender: Male

What is a lion, king of the savannah, when hes at the south pole?

Re: B&E or Exploring?
<Reply # 11 on 1/8/2006 5:15 PM >

Posted by Walking Talking Poison

Wow, Im having a serious DUH moment here. That thought had never crossed my mind. And I must say, after having a few run ins with the cops and judges around here. They would never ever believe me if I told them how my "traces of self" got there. EEK!

Thats why it offends me that so many people scream and complain about how Jester, and others move around.

Maybe its years of experience with Operational Security is always on my mind (OPSEC). Sometimes I tell a few people I really dont know all that well, but semi trust what I have done. However most sites, similar to the one Jester went to I never speak of, and try to leave no trace to. I have been places where they will probably shoot and ask questions later.

Just think if a guy comes in after you (murphys law) and does something now your prints are all over the place.

Most people on here dont think like that because they stick to pretty easy sites. Which is fine you can explain yourself, other places you just can't.

P.S. Sometimes its better not to take a camera as well hence few photos.

"If the threat level goes up its probably because of me." "I am looking for a girl who enjoys headbutting beltbuckles"

kjones

location:
Providence, RI
Gender: Male

Ninja? Or frightened little boy?

Re: B&E or Exploring?
<Reply # 12 on 1/8/2006 5:33 PM >

Posted by Jester
I won't do anything that will damage a site, in any way, no ifs ands or buts. I have been in more secure places, without ever damaging anything, than most people on this site will ever consider even trying. Nobody will know I was there unless I post it on the site, and that's how I like it.

Doing anything that shows you were there can have repercussions. The place can get mnore secure or in the guards get reemed out when the cut fence is discovered, then when the guard happens to catch someone there he won't be very leniant about it, when he might have been if it hadn't been clear someone had gotten in before...

Just tonight, I was in one of the most secure sites around, a place I've wanted to get into for quite some time. Very secure site, the usual barbed wire fences around here, with multiple on site security guards... In and out of there, they haven't got a clue I was in...

Yeah, you Wraiths are freakin' hardcore...

I would never do anything to a site that I couldn't undo, leaving the site as I found it... therefore, lockpicking is fine (if I could pick locks) because I can lock the door again afterwards, movin' around boards is fine as long as I don't break anything and can put them back... the idea is that you don't want to open up a "clean" site for vandals, taggers, and their ilk.

On the other hand, I've often had experiences like Walking Talking Poison... I think a site is impenetrable, and then I glimpse an oh-so-subtle way in. I've always accounted it to vandals/homeless.

But I don't know what I would do if the only thing keeping me out of a sweet location was one measly board.

And I'm not even close to paranoid enough to be worrying about fingerprints.

Forbidden fruit a flavor has
That lawful orchards mocks;
How luscious lies the pea within
The pod that Duty locks!

-Emily Dickinson on UE

Ruck

location:
Texas
Gender: Male

Re: B&E or Exploring?
<Reply # 13 on 1/9/2006 12:50 AM >

Posted by Mark

See this is where I disagree with so many people. If we have two men, one tortures people to death; the other killed someone in gang related violence. Who is more of a criminal, I would say the torturer, however both are still criminals. Different sentences both are still criminals.

This analogy is a bit erroneous. Both acts in question, while allowing that one is much more heinous than the other, are still very powerful, very "bad" acts. The distance between them is not enough to provide a valid theory of differential significance. The difference between exploring and breaking and entering is more along the lines of going three miles over the speed limit vs. stealing a car. Yes, both are crimes, but one is obviously more significant than the other.

We trespass(minus a very few with permission which is fine) but we all start throwing stones at others for certain activities. One might feel less morally obligated to trespassing, but its still a crime just as much as walking into someones summer home. I find it disturbing that some people will castigate someone on here, for relatively small damage(although not good for UE) but in turn do illegal activates.

Explorers--or trespassers, if you will--are criminals by presence alone, not by act. Destructors, on the other hand, are criminals by both presence (trespassing) and act (breaking in to some place). The object of exploring is to see new things without changing the enviroment. Exploring should be nothing more than a pair of eyes roaming around. However, when you begin to pick locks and cut fences, you go from an observer to someone actively influencing the enviroment. So to me, such activities just don't have a place in UEing. Not to mention it gives UE a bad name and certainly doesn't endear you to the property owners/authorities if you get caught. An open window looks like curiosity. A broken lock looks like malicious intent. Hope I made sense.

"For the listener, who listens in the snow, And, nothing himself, beholds Nothing that is not there and the nothing that is." ~Wallace Stevens

Mark

Very Noble Donor
location:
South Carolina
Gender: Male

What is a lion, king of the savannah, when hes at the south pole?

Re: B&E or Exploring?
<Reply # 14 on 1/9/2006 3:31 AM >

Posted by Zero Horizon

Explorers--or trespassers, if you will--are criminals by presence alone, not by act. Destructors, on the other hand, are criminals by both presence (trespassing) and act (breaking in to some place). The object of exploring is to see new things without changing the enviroment. Exploring should be nothing more than a pair of eyes roaming around. However, when you begin to pick locks and cut fences, you go from an observer to someone actively influencing the enviroment. So to me, such activities just don't have a place in UEing. Not to mention it gives UE a bad name and certainly doesn't endear you to the property owners/authorities if you get caught. An open window looks like curiosity. A broken lock looks like malicious intent. Hope I made sense.

This is what I despise. You think one person is moral just because he/she has broken what you feel is a "lesser law". Although you can make destinctions and show how one is less in the eyes of people, it may not be to the victim.

I can give you seveal what ifs about tresspassing being terrible to some people, and harmless to others.

Both are still breaking the FUCKING LAW. A felony is a crime, a misderminer is a crime, speeding is a crime. Different punishments, but your no better then a guy who cuts a fence, you just get less of a charge, and can feel a little better about it. Your still know what you do is wrong but you do is wrong. If you can handle the consequences fine, but its still wrong.

People made no trespassing laws for a reason, and breaking them still means your disobeying them.

"If the threat level goes up its probably because of me." "I am looking for a girl who enjoys headbutting beltbuckles"

Noah Vale

location:
Portland, Or

It's nobler to never get paid, than to bank on shit and dismay

Re: B&E or Exploring?
<Reply # 15 on 1/9/2006 3:50 AM >

Posted by Mark
Although you can make destinctions and show how one is less in the eyes of people, it may not be to the victim.

If you can say with a straight face that a "victim" of trespassing would equate walking through a place with smashing a door in, you sir, are retarded.

Both are still breaking the FUCKING LAW. A felony is a crime, a misderminer is a crime, speeding is a crime. Different punishments, but your no better then a guy who cuts a fence, you just get less of a charge, and can feel a little better about it. Your still know what you do is wrong but you do is wrong. If you can handle the consequences fine, but its still wrong.

Yes, they are crimes, no one has argued otherwise. However, as you yourself point out, the law does not treat them equally. Different punishments for different crimes.

The only thing being argued by the people you so despise is this; I'm willing to do X but not Y, both of which are defined as Z, with Y being > X (and thus worse) by my moral approximation.

"Dallas is a magnificent and wide open city, and I'm deeply envious of any urban explorers who have the good fortune to live there." -Ninj.

GrayFox location: Allston MA Gender: Male A Star of CCTV \| \|	Re: B&E or Exploring? <Reply # 16 on 1/9/2006 5:48 AM >

	I think we all can learn just not to get caught, it saves alot of issues.

Pravus

location:
Chicago Area
Gender: Male

Now the two key words for tonight - "caution" and "flammable"...

Re: B&E or Exploring?
<Reply # 17 on 1/9/2006 8:44 AM >

Posted by GrayFox
I think we all can learn just not to get caught, it saves alot of issues.

In an ideal world.. but then again it's not.. and sometimes we just get screwed and are outa options but to get caught

And normally we don't do anything that we can't put back when we leave or at the least is completely unnoticeable.. if theres something blocking the door I'll move it.. But I don't think I'd kickout boards nailed to the door.. I'll pick a lock or take the hinges off the door but I won't kick it in.. I've cut the wires that connect the bottom of a fence to the support poles but I wouldn't cut a fence in two..
Pretty much no matter how "tightly sealed" an abandon building is theres always a good way in that doesn't involve a half pound of C4..
Figure the more noticeable entrances you make or the more apparent you make it that people go there the higher chance other people will get in (not everyone would care about knocking in a wall and setting fire to it) so future excursions will just be higher risk because people like security and cops or owners will know that people are doing no good there and they will start to check up on it randomly
[last edit 1/9/2006 8:58 AM by Pravus - edited 1 times]

Live to Serve, Serve to Live..

Mark

Very Noble Donor
location:
South Carolina
Gender: Male

What is a lion, king of the savannah, when hes at the south pole?

Re: B&E or Exploring?
<Reply # 18 on 1/9/2006 2:59 PM >

Posted by Noah Vale

If you can say with a straight face that a "victim" of trespassing would equate walking through a place with smashing a door in, you sir, are retarded.

Yes, they are crimes, no one has argued otherwise. However, as you yourself point out, the law does not treat them equally. Different punishments for different crimes.

The only thing being argued by the people you so despise is this; I'm willing to do X but not Y, both of which are defined as Z, with Y being > X (and thus worse) by my moral approximation.

Case in point a woman bought a building who she wished to watch fall to peices. It was a small house about 45 minutes from where I live. She would ball like a girl when male boys came through the place, but never once had a issue with the kids throwing stones at it.

The lady apparently is not in a mental home.

She had been raped there.

I was told this story by one of my bosses who lived a few houses away. Apparently raped by an ex boyfriend and had issues with men, and especially any males in the building would bring back the whole incident.

HOW ABOUT YOU FUCKING THINK OUT OF THE FUCKING BOX. I AM NOT SAYING BOTH ARE EQUAL, I AM JUST TIRED OF SOMEONE SAYING I AM MORALLY RIGHT AND YOU ARE MORALLY WRONG.

You dont know, and this story of the lady maybe some hashed up urban myth of the area, maybe not.

Wrong is wrong and I hate people standing proud with there feathers all up in a mess, condemning a sinner when they are just as bad. Say you disagree but dont be a fucking cock.

"If the threat level goes up its probably because of me." "I am looking for a girl who enjoys headbutting beltbuckles"

Pravus

location:
Chicago Area
Gender: Male

Now the two key words for tonight - "caution" and "flammable"...

Re: B&E or Exploring?
<Reply # 19 on 1/9/2006 3:37 PM >

Posted by Mark
HOW ABOUT YOU FUCKING THINK OUT OF THE FUCKING BOX. I AM NOT SAYING BOTH ARE EQUAL, I AM JUST TIRED OF SOMEONE SAYING I AM MORALLY RIGHT AND YOU ARE MORALLY WRONG.

That would be the problem with having a 'moral' debate everyone has thier own version of morals.. Pretty much with this 'area of morality' everyones (at least for the most part, but feel free to correct me..) on the same page, Ideally it'd be nice to limit needless damage.. Some are a little more black and white about it and some allow a little more grey in thier thinking
this is less of a topic on 'if' you agree.. and more of 'how much' you agree..

Live to Serve, Serve to Live..

Infiltration Forums > Archived UE Tutorials, Lessons, and Useful Info > B&E or Exploring? (Viewed 1372 times)

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