Infiltration

followthewhiterabbit location: Lower Main land Gender: Male \|	Jester vs UEA unlocked < on 12/10/2005 6:58 AM >

	I think that thread might have been locked pre-maturely. It was just coming into its own. What I do see is a significant difference in styles. The alberta group tends to openly try and meet regularly sort of as a social club, where Jester if I may from what I have seen believes in a fairly controlled and difficult process to become part of the team. Which by its very nature will only appeal to some fairly motivated hardcore explorers as Jester has without a question amassed a significant and intimidating portfolio of locations. This is guaranteed to be a bit intimidating for the Newby, or at least any newby with some sense of Conscience for the delicate and respectful approach JEster takes, Some Newbs who are reckless and just want to Tag I could see doing whatever they could to get Jester to take them on a mission or whatnot. Both approaches are good and Both are needed. I think the open concept can work and will eventually help produce the one or two members a year that would fit into Jesters group. The unfortunate thing is that they are not both in the same Location. Its good to have stepping stones and the one thing I will say is that in Vancouver I would say there is a lack of opportunity to earn your stripes and develop your skills as part of a group. But I may have misread my city and will soon find myself with an invite to go explore something. I wouldnt mind meeting some people from the Vancouver area to step up my learning curve. There now I think the thread is ready to be closed. I think Jester ha a fairly streategic approach and from what I can see from websites around the world seems to be in an elite category, I also recognize it would be nice to meet people in the Vancouver area who can together learn to run before taking on a marathon. [last edit 12/10/2005 7:02 AM by followthewhiterabbit - edited 1 times] It seems you've just been looking with your eyes closed.

FyRePhReAk location: Calgary, Alberta Gender: Male disassociative \|	Re: Jester vs UEA unlocked <Reply # 1 on 12/10/2005 7:32 AM >

	let it go, it's not worth it. all that's going to happen is a repeat of the same noise that's happened in the past. Walk away.

Jester location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada Gender: Male Always just out of sight... \| \|	Re: Jester vs UEA unlocked <Reply # 2 on 12/10/2005 8:08 AM >

	The point of it wasn't the different approaches o exploring or ofthe groups. It was one person making up lies and spreading them, and I was fed up with that bullshit. It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf.

followthewhiterabbit location: Lower Main land Gender: Male \|	Re: Jester vs UEA unlocked <Reply # 3 on 12/10/2005 9:10 AM >

	I'm not holding onto anything, Its my nature to try and build cooperation and understanding, and its also a big part of the work i do. Anyways, Its so hard to know how to take people on here. I might find someone who posts in a certain style to be what I think is similar or compatible to my thoughts and then in real life I could feel completely differently, And perhaps someone I didnt think i would fit with on here , in real life might be a good buddy. So. anyways, Any of the Moderators can have pitty on the thread and lock it now. It seems you've just been looking with your eyes closed.

kowalski

Re: Jester vs UEA unlocked
<Reply # 4 on 12/10/2005 2:46 PM >

This is why in common-sense versions of Robert's Rules you don't get the option of calling the question after spending the previous two minutes harranging an assembly with your personal opinion. You either get up and call the question, or you get up and talk and then let other people do the same.

It's selfish as fuck to think that your poorly organized, unparagraphed opinion is so vital that it deserves its own thread and so unassailable that the thread should then be locked immediately to head off any replies. You felt it necessary to dig up an old issue again and defib it back to life? Fine, but you're going to have to deal with the ramifications of bringing it up again.

For instance...

Post by followthewhiterabbit
Its good to have stepping stones and the one thing I will say is that in Vancouver I would say there is a lack of opportunity to earn your stripes and develop your skills as part of a group.

Why do genuinely-interested people need to have access to an existing group? This isn't an online computer game, we don't need clans. Neither is this minor hockey, where we're busy offering skill development so we can find the 1/1000 player who can make it to the majors. If people aren't independent enough and imaginative enough to do this stuff responsibly on their own, without the need to gain the acceptance and logistical support of an existing group, they probably aren't the sort of people that should be exploring at all.

I also recognize it would be nice to meet people in the Vancouver area who can together learn to run before taking on a marathon.

Then organize a meet and get to know them. Take things into your own hands instead of relying on the initiative and support of established explorers.
[last edit 12/10/2005 2:47 PM by kowalski - edited 1 times]

Kay O. Sweaver location: Montreal, Quebec Gender: Male Happiness is saying yes more often than no. \|	Re: Jester vs UEA unlocked <Reply # 5 on 12/10/2005 6:49 PM >

	I agree with Kowalski. I have much more respect for people who take some initiative. That being said sometimes people only need a little push to get over some fear or confusion and I feel that as a "senior" explorer its my job to do that. Just a little push though. People have accused UEA of being elitist and hard to get into, which is part of the reason we started the pub nights. Ironically there are some who still feel excluded, but they don't come to the meets. It takes some effort, some people just want everything handed to them. Those people don't get helped. The best way to get into the "scene" is to create it for yourself. One problem with the dirth of UE sites and photos out there is that it makes people hope for an expect giant factories, labyrinthine tunnel systems, etc. No, you probably won't find such things on your own right off the bat. That's no reason not to explore. If you're only in it for the big stuff you can forget it. UE is as much about crappy utility vaults and boring staff only corridors as it is power stations and drains with twelve foot waterfalls. ========================== Amy Smith is an infected slut

'Dukes Noble Donor Gender: Male At least someone llikes me \| \|	Re: Jester vs UEA unlocked <Reply # 6 on 12/10/2005 10:36 PM >

	Damn, I read the title wrong; was hoping to see "Jester vs UEA Unplugged!". No jam session tonight I guess. I got your tour winner right here pussies, at least he'd crash out trying.

Mister Sable location: Palliser City Gender: Male The Man with the Hat (the other man) \| \|	Re: Jester vs UEA unlocked <Reply # 7 on 12/10/2005 10:39 PM >

	No one has accused UEA of being elitist and no one never will. It's very much the opposite with the anyone-and-their-dog-can-come newbie nights. Though, I don't really see anything wrong with being elitist in regard to UE. It's just nice to have standards. The only reason UEA comes here is to try to get more members (gawd knows why) and to pester Jester. I'm sure this will cut and pasted ransom note style to appear wildly out of context and Jester will bear the brunt of it though he didn't type it, as per usual. Bets are being placed. "Why do genuinely-interested people need to have access to an existing group? This isn't an online computer game, we don't need clans. Neither is this minor hockey, where we're busy offering skill development so we can find the 1/1000 player who can make it to the majors. If people aren't independent enough and imaginative enough to do this stuff responsibly on their own, without the need to gain the acceptance and logistical support of an existing group, they probably aren't the sort of people that should be exploring at all." VERY well said, Kowalski! Cloak and dagger, man, cloak and dagger.

Obscura

Gender: Male

Nikonwhore

Re: Jester vs UEA unlocked
<Reply # 8 on 12/12/2005 5:36 PM >

Posted by FyRePhReAk
let it go,
it's not worth it.
all that's going to happen is a repeat of the same noise that's happened in the past.

hopefully the noise will be like breaking glass rather than fingernails on a chalkboard... I like the sound of breaking glass...

Obscura

"Grizzly...Who's Steve?"

FyRePhReAk location: Calgary, Alberta Gender: Male disassociative \|	Re: Jester vs UEA unlocked <Reply # 9 on 12/13/2005 4:31 AM >

	Last time I heard breaking glass, I was doing 70 and Bambi was aligned with myself and my hood ornament. Walk away.

Team Leader This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information. location: Uptown,downtown,all around. Gender: Male \|	Re: Jester vs UEA unlocked <Reply # 10 on 12/13/2005 7:05 AM >

	Mmmmmmmm, venison. Death Sentence- Live to die (good ole one) http://theaumc.com/forums

Obscura Gender: Male Nikonwhore \|	Re: Jester vs UEA unlocked <Reply # 11 on 12/13/2005 8:03 AM >

	Poor 2G 'teg... Obscura "Grizzly...Who's Steve?"

Kay O. Sweaver

location:
Montreal, Quebec
Gender: Male

Happiness is saying yes more often than no.

Re: Jester vs UEA unlocked
<Reply # 12 on 12/13/2005 8:04 AM >

Posted by Mister Sable
No one has accused UEA of being elitist and no one never will. It's very much the opposite with the anyone-and-their-dog-can-come newbie nights. Though, I don't really see anything wrong with being elitist in regard to UE. It's just nice to have standards.

There were indeed accusations of elitism when Reverend Skaught proposed his Urbanaut idea, ironically as a strict UE ethical code. anyone-and-their-dog-can-come to a safe, easily accessible drain with us, but we don't divulge information or invitations to more sensitive sites. The point of pub nights and noob nights is to allow people who are interested in UE the opportunity to prove themselves and get a taste of things for themselves. This way everyone is making educated decisions about the hobby.

The only reason UEA comes here is to try to get more members (gawd knows why) and to pester Jester.

Nobody here is childish enough to come here just to pester Jester. UEA also doesn't actively recruit, people come to us. The noob mission of a few months ago was a response to that demand.

I'm not trying to be confrontational, just clear up any misconceptions. It would also be appreciated not to paint the whole group with the same brush. UEA is represented on UER by myself Agent Nox, Fyrephreak, Underneath and to a lesser extent Reverend Skaught and Anymouse. We're all here for different reasons.

==========================
Amy Smith is an infected slut

Pickwick

location:
Calgary, Alberta
Gender: Male

Re: Jester vs UEA unlocked
<Reply # 13 on 12/13/2005 8:42 AM >

Posted by Kay O. Sweaver
I agree with Kowalski. I have much more respect for people who take some initiative. That being said sometimes people only need a little push to get over some fear or confusion and I feel that as a "senior" explorer its my job to do that. Just a little push though.

People have accused UEA of being elitist and hard to get into, which is part of the reason we started the pub nights. Ironically there are some who still feel excluded, but they don't come to the meets. It takes some effort, some people just want everything handed to them. Those people don't get helped.

The best way to get into the "scene" is to create it for yourself. One problem with the dirth of UE sites and photos out there is that it makes people hope for an expect giant factories, labyrinthine tunnel systems, etc. No, you probably won't find such things on your own right off the bat. That's no reason not to explore. If you're only in it for the big stuff you can forget it. UE is as much about crappy utility vaults and boring staff only corridors as it is power stations and drains with twelve foot waterfalls.

Hear, hear Kaos!

My post in the previous thread was in no way meant to suggest the UEA just gives anyone locations frivolously. In saying that, I've never felt that the UEA elitist.

I came to my first meet as an enthusiastic noob, and got some good advice in terms of how to start out. This involved things such as basic equipment for my kit etc. My first exploration was a condo under construction here in downtown Calgary. That was done through my own scouting work, and my own initiative to enter the place to begin with.

I'll reiterate, from the previous thread, that I owe UEA for the better places I've seen. This doesn't mean that they gave me anything and everything right off the bat. As Kaos said, UE is about the less glamourous places as much as it is the cool ones. Nobody from UEA suggested I lurk around city hall, or travel down the Eaton's Centre utility elevators. They didn't suggest that I try to get onto the roof of the Sun Life buildings here in Calgary. Nor did they give me locations to some office buildings under renovation, which have given me some of my best (and worst) photo ops.

UE is what you make it.

I've been scoping out some locations for months, and still have yet to succeed in finding appropriate access. I'll continue to scope out these locations. I've learned the hard way, more than once, that procrastination is your own worst enemy. These are the realities of UE. Nobody gave Magellan a satellite composition of the globe before he went on his missions. Likewise, nobody owes anyone easy access into the better sites in town.

I've been on very fun and fruitful missions with UEA members, and I've done a share on my own. I've gotten locattions from the group and I, as I've said, owe them for that (BIG TIME frankly).

UEA elitist? I think not.

Come to the pub nights, and find out from your own experience.

followthewhiterabbit location: Lower Main land Gender: Male \|	Re: Jester vs UEA unlocked <Reply # 14 on 12/13/2005 8:55 AM >

	Kowalsky, Personal attacks arent necessary. Thanks. If you cant see the forest for the trees and understand the benefit of more than one approach to doing things it is too bad. Obviously there is something about belonging and sharing your experiences with others that does appeal to you. Or perhaps there is another appeal to you for investing your time in this community. Enlighten me. Please. It seems you've just been looking with your eyes closed.

kowalski \|	Re: Jester vs UEA unlocked <Reply # 15 on 12/13/2005 9:34 AM >

	A personal attack? Calling your actions in starting and then seeking to end this thread selfish? Give me a break. Belonging to a community and sharing your experiences with others does not require active access to a preexisting group. I've never been a member of a formal exploration group, but I've explored with members of UEA, the Wraiths and Bored Middle Class (upstate NY) when I've travelled to their home areas, stayed in their houses and otherwise gotten on quite well with them. But I've never needed such a group locally, I've always explored informally, by myself or with one or two other people who happened to be interested at the time (and who mostly had cars, hah). My issue is with the way you conceive of the hobby. I see no need for the sort of farm system mentality of your initial post. I have no problem with people forming groups, it's your imagination of a teleology and hierarchy where groups somehow form a system that explorers rise through that I find very badly conceived whether as an interpretation of reality or a concept of how things should be. If you want to earn your stripes, then find something interesting in your city to explore, investigate it responsibly, and document your exploration with words and/or photos. You don't need to tag along with an established group to do that, and it's certainly not their obligation to encourage or tolerate you joining them. If you really want exploration to be a social club, then make that club yourself - start your own group. Take the lead, take charge. Don't wait for someone else to make it all happen, to manufacture a group identity, to show you all the good places to explore and give you something to belong to. If access to a group is so important to you that you feel it necessary to lament its absence, then go create it yourself. There's lots of occasional explorers in Vancouver who pop up on here every so often, so bring them into your tent, go exploring and learn from each other's strengths, experience and mistakes along the way.

Syd

This member has been banned.

Re: Jester vs UEA unlocked
<Reply # 16 on 12/13/2005 1:06 PM >

Posted by Jester
The point of it wasn't the different approaches o exploring or ofthe groups. It was one person making up lies and spreading them, and I was fed up with that bullshit.

It took me a while to respect Jester. I was even mocking him at one point on a different forum. I m not even going to bother reading this thread Ill just reply.

I can respect his ethics and the way he does things.

This floating santa clause is really annoying though.

Pick up your ethics and go home.

Mister Sable

location:
Palliser City
Gender: Male

The Man with the Hat (the other man)

Re: Jester vs UEA unlocked
<Reply # 17 on 12/13/2005 7:47 PM >

I stand corrected about the elitist thing.

Posted by Kay O. SweaverUEA also doesn't actively recruit, people come to us.

Yeah, maybe they just saw the newspaper ads or got the mail outs.

Though kudos for finally making a conscious effort to appear more responsible as a whole. Good PR and effective damage control is a good thing, the former negates a need for the later.

Off topic, I'm going to guess the floating Xmas garbage will be removed around January 2, so that's when I'll be back.

Cloak and dagger, man, cloak and dagger.

Kay O. Sweaver location: Montreal, Quebec Gender: Male Happiness is saying yes more often than no. \|	Re: Jester vs UEA unlocked <Reply # 18 on 12/13/2005 9:43 PM >

	Newspaper ads were never run, at least not to my knowledge. Show me a clipping. There was talk of it yes and I for one fought vehemently against it. As far as I'm aware our noobie drain was advertized on UEA, UER and through word of mouth to friends and associates. UEA is as responsible as the Agents of Corrosion and most other largish UE groups that I know of. I've heard stories and seen things first hand and frankly it bothers me when people pretend to be more pious than they really are. ========================== Amy Smith is an infected slut

Jester location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada Gender: Male Always just out of sight... \| \|	Re: Jester vs UEA unlocked <Reply # 19 on 12/13/2005 9:46 PM >

	How about me ? Do I pretend to be more pious than I really am ? It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf.

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