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Subnuclear
   
location:
Houston, Texas
Gender: Male
P2O5 + 3 H2O >> H3PO4
 |  |  | Asbestos, souvenirs, & leaving things behind.
< on 12/3/2005 11:08 PM >
|  | | | Being new to the art of Urban Exploration, I'm prone to be full of questions one might see as elementary, but please bear with me.
1. Does asbestos become less dangerous during the winter months? Can it be killed by cold weather or some kind of spray? Are there other ways of avoiding it other than ditching the expedition or wearing filtered masks?
2. Would it be morally wrong to take objects such as rocks (chips of cement, small shards of tile or glass, etc.), dust samples, rusty nails (screws, nuts, etc.), and/or discarded scraps of cloth or garbage? I'm unsure as to the line between "trash" and "property". Sad as it is, and as much as I hate to admit it, I have a bad habit of picking up random stones to remind me of a trip. Should I stop doing this?
3. Instead of tagging, would it be a bad idea to leave a photograph or a notebook behind for others to see?
Any answers, suggestions, and obligatory flaming will be readily accepted and carefully considered. :3
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Factor VIII
   
location:
tu5t1n
Gender: Male
The Legacy
| |  | Re: Asbestos, souvenirs, & leaving things behind.
<Reply # 1 on 12/3/2005 11:27 PM >
|  | | | 1. Asbestos cannot be "killed". Asbestos is simply a fiber that is mined from the earth. Only some masks protect against asbestos, I'm not sure of the exact kind, but you could search and come up with plenty of results. Your best bet is to wear a mask and be careful around it because you can still be exposed to it if you do wear a mask.
2. I wouldnt see anything wrong with taking such small things, but others have different opinions.
3. I dont see anything wrong with leaving behind a notebook or photograph. A lot of people do this. I do drains so I have to use more permanent methods of leaving my mark if I choose to do so. A photograph isnt going to stay in a drain for long 
use the boost to get through |
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Dowcet
 
location:
Middletown, ct
| | | Re: Asbestos, souvenirs, & leaving things behind.
<Reply # 2 on 12/4/2005 2:06 AM >
| | | | 1) This thread has some pretty good tips on asbestos safety: http://www.uer.ca/...d=1&threadid=24326
2) If its REALLY boring and REALLY small, I say sure. But if its at all unique and part of the character of the site, I think the right thing to do is leave it and take pictures, not souveniers. This can be a tough call... especially if a place is under renovation and the object is doomed for the dumpster anyway. But in general, its better to bring your friends to the flower then the flower to your friends, so to speak.
3) Leaving behind a notebook or photo is cool with me. Starting a registry (see http://www.uer.ca/...d=1&threadid=16442) is an especially awesome idea.
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Mellon_Collie
location:
Utah'ish
Gender: Male
Chingblot.
| |  | | Re: Asbestos, souvenirs, & leaving things behind.
<Reply # 3 on 12/4/2005 2:09 AM >
| | | | Factor VIII is right about asbestos. The only way to protect against it is to wear a mask designed to protect against it. I hear these are pretty pricey, but they seem worthwhile as with the correct filters, can protect from just about anything short of lack of oxygen. Even if you do wear a mask, you can still inhale asbestos from things like the clothes you were wearing. Be sure to wash them as soon as you get home. While a tiny amount would not be a death sentence, it is definitely something you want to breathe in as little as humanely possible. There are quite a few decent threads on asbestos, read them. I will try and find some and post some links here for you later.
I too, would not have a problem with taking say a small rock in a drain, or in the parking lot of wherever you were. I would avoid things like rusty nails, because they might make good pictures for someone else, or you might get tetnus I think that main thing is that you leave the place pretty much as you found it for everyone else to enjoy. Don't vandalize. The mantra of most people on the website is: Take only pictures, leave only footprints. This is a good idea to follow too, in case you get caught by the cops or security. They really won't have much of anything on you. As for the difference between trash and property I would say if it is in the dumpster, it is trash, if not, it is property. Dumpster diving is pretty fun, and you can find some cool things in them. Of course, you will look like you are stealing if you get caught.
I also do not oppose leaving a notebook or something in a plastic bag for others. I think it is pretty neat, fun thing to do.
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wooble
location:
Surrey, UK
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Asbestos, souvenirs, & leaving things behind.
<Reply # 4 on 12/4/2005 2:22 PM >
| | | | 1. Asbestos abatement crews often use a fine spray of water to reduce the amount of asbestos in the air. The same can be said for rain and snow, which slightly reduce the amount of asbestos in the air, but not really by any significant margin. A mask is still the only way to be sure you're limiting your exposure to asbestos.
2. I would not object to taking any of the things you have mentioned. Some people object to taking anything at all, but it gets kind of silly when you extend that to the kind of stuff you mentioned.
3. It's a great idea to do something like that. Quite a few of the mental hospitals over here have a 'guestbook' hidden away somewhere. It feels good to leave one, it feels good to find one and sign it, and it feels good to read other people's comments in one.
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Ian
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
The County of Kings
Gender: Male
"Great architecture has only two natural enemies: water, and stupid men."
| | Re: Asbestos, souvenirs, & leaving things behind.
<Reply # 5 on 12/4/2005 10:27 PM >
| | | | Posted by Subnuclear
1. Does asbestos become less dangerous during the winter months? Can it be killed by cold weather or some kind of spray? Are there other ways of avoiding it other than ditching the expedition or wearing filtered masks?
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No. Friable (loose fibrous) asbestos, and even non-friable concretized forms, fill the air with microscopic fibers which become lodged in the lungs; a large proportion of the fibers stay there until you die. They are a natural, mineral substance which cannot "become less dangerous" and furthermore, a simple filtered mask is not going to do the trick. You need a HEPA grade P100 mask if you are even going to think about entering an area where asbestos subsists. If you aren't scared enough of your vague idea about asbestos, google "mesothelioma" and "asbestosis". You will be scared then. You should be scared. Make no mistake about it: asbestos is deadly.
Posted by Subnuclear
2. Would it be morally wrong to take objects such as rocks (chips of cement, small shards of tile or glass, etc.), dust samples, rusty nails (screws, nuts, etc.), and/or discarded scraps of cloth or garbage? I'm unsure as to the line between "trash" and "property". Sad as it is, and as much as I hate to admit it, I have a bad habit of picking up random stones to remind me of a trip. Should I stop doing this?
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You should always carry the following credo in mind whenever onsite: "Take only photographs, leave only footprints". Take a camera and make your own souveniers! But in general, do not remove anything from a site. You know the old adage "one man's trash is another man's treasure"? Well, I'm not in a position to decide what's trash and what's property. Neither are you.
Posted by Subnuclear
3. Instead of tagging, would it be a bad idea to leave a photograph or a notebook behind for others to see?
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Please don't do this. Beyond the fact that it is destructive and annoying, one of the things I hate most about tagging is the fact that it takes away some of the solitude of the place: you know that others have been here in the recent past. If an explorer comes across somebody's polaroids/notebook/et cetera, it's going to break the reverential and reflective mood that can often accompany a long day in the tunnel/abandoned asylum/factory/whatever they're exploring. Again: "Take only photographs, leave only footprints".
Posted by Subnuclear
Any answers, suggestions, and obligatory flaming will be readily accepted and carefully considered. :3
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No flaming required. We're not born knowing about asbestos, and it takes quite a bit of pondering to realize that the ethics are solid and necessary. I'm glad you had the coolness factor necessary to ask people in a position to know, rather than risking your health/taking things/leaving things. I highly recommend that you learn all you can about air hazards before attempting anything where you might encounter asbestos, black mold, H2S, OVs, et cetera. Knowledge is the best tool you can have in your toolbox.
Happy trails!
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Tiberius
location:
Philadelphia, PA
Gender: Male
I'm not wearing pants
| | | | Re: Asbestos, souvenirs, & leaving things behind.
<Reply # 6 on 12/4/2005 10:49 PM >
| | | | Posted by Leviathan
You should always carry the following credo in mind whenever onsite: "Take only photographs, leave only footprints". Take a camera and make your own souveniers! But in general, do not remove anything from a site. You know the old adage "one man's trash is another man's treasure"? Well, I'm not in a position to decide what's trash and what's property. Neither are you.
Please don't do this. Beyond the fact that it is destructive and annoying, one of the things I hate most about tagging is the fact that it takes away some of the solitude of the place: you know that others have been here in the recent past. If an explorer comes across somebody's polaroids/notebook/et cetera, it's going to break the reverential and reflective mood that can often accompany a long day in the tunnel/abandoned asylum/factory/whatever they're exploring. Again: "Take only photographs, leave only footprints". |
Since these are opinionated answers to the questions you should really say this if what I think or I don't like this idea, or something along those lines. It isn't that I disagree with you it is just that I feel as if you are acting as a "guru" and trying to shove your credos and opinions down everyone else's throats.
I agree with leviathan though leaving things behind take away from the site, just my opinion though ;)
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Ian
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
The County of Kings
Gender: Male
"Great architecture has only two natural enemies: water, and stupid men."
| | Re: Asbestos, souvenirs, & leaving things behind.
<Reply # 7 on 12/4/2005 11:14 PM >
| | | | I don't take "take naught but photographs, leave naught but footprints", or some variation thereof, to be my credo per se; rather, I take it to be a sort of universal maxim (eat it, Kant) that needs to apply to everybody in order for there to be a sort of base on which to found the proper practice of exploring...
I apologize, though, if my tone comes off as too "guru-like". I don't intend to make it such, though oftentimes I may come across this way. I really just want to make sure that people are getting the right information. Remember, a whole lot of people are going to be surfing by and checking out these forums, now that we have the likes of the Discovery Channel show and so on. Some of these people will be interested and be looking to those of us who are sort of "old hats", as it were, for advice, and providing the best quality advice possible is certainly desirable. Unfortunately, this can come off as somewhat pedantic. This is not, however, my intent.
Happy trails!
Ian
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maxt
location:
Tampa Bay, FL
Gender: Male
RAR!
| | Re: Asbestos, souvenirs, & leaving things behind.
<Reply # 8 on 12/6/2005 6:42 AM >
| | | | My main complaint, Levialton, is you talk like a lawyer. This is a message board that deals with "fringe of the social fabric" subject matter, not a dissertation in your graduate photography class. It grates on the nerves. Talk about bukakke or taking a dump or something to be friendly first, then feel free to blast your guru crap wherever. Go read the Scottish or Georgia sites to get an idea. Your tagline doesn't help matters either. And for fuck's sake lay off the commas. You must have missed the part in Creative Writing on brevity of a statement/sentance/thought/loadblowage.
So far as the original question, asbestos is dangerous and deadly but not in a "dead in 3 days" way. Unless you are in it daily/weekly, it is highly doubtful you will develop asbestosis. But better safe than sorry. Any asbestos lodged in your lungs will be there with you even when you decompose into dust. But keep in mind that the effects are cumulative. Think of it like papercuts. One won't kill you or effect you, but getting continuous papercuts for 20 years sucks.
On the taking things and leaving notebooks, I say do what you feel. People range from "OMFG YOU SNEEZED AND MOVED THE RUST" to dudes who enjoy annoying security guards. There is no right or wrong, do what you feel. Just be sure to realise that what you do may have unforseen consequences. Like removing a DANGER sign, moving forklifts around, leaving a notebook.... well, the property owner generally checks on properties every now and then, and may take steps to lock a location down if they notice such things. Just don't be a tard.
To me, personally, I pack a P100 mask and filter from the local home store (Purple Ring on filter = It filters Asbestos). Double check the packaging to be sure. I take little things if I think they're awesome, but nothing major UNLESS the site will be torn down very very soon. I don't leave a notebook, but I don't see the harm in signing a chalkboard or the like.
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Dowcet
location:
Middletown, ct
| | | Re: Asbestos, souvenirs, & leaving things behind.
<Reply # 9 on 12/6/2005 3:05 PM >
| | | |
Think of it like papercuts. One won't kill you or effect you, but getting continuous papercuts for 20 years sucks.
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That seems a little misleading assuming the other things I have read are not totally off-base... If it were exactly like that, it wouldn't be that big of deal to skip the respirator if you don't explore old buildings that much. But my understanding is that one-time moderate exposure COULD kill you, through it will take at least 10 years and depends on a lot of other factors... Am I wrong?
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ednothing
| | | Re: Asbestos, souvenirs, & leaving things behind.
<Reply # 10 on 12/6/2005 3:43 PM >
| | | | Bah. Do whatever feels right to you. I've both left behind things (a dollar donation in a collection jar for turning an abandoned place into a museum, and a Polaroid photo) and taken stuff (an old necklace and part of the locking mechanism to a large bank vault).
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Ian
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
The County of Kings
Gender: Male
"Great architecture has only two natural enemies: water, and stupid men."
| | Re: Asbestos, souvenirs, & leaving things behind.
<Reply # 11 on 12/6/2005 3:44 PM >
| | | | Posted by maxt
My main complaint, Levialton, is you talk like a lawyer. This is a message board that deals with "fringe of the social fabric" subject matter, not a dissertation in your graduate photography class. It grates on the nerves. Talk about bukakke or taking a dump or something to be friendly first, then feel free to blast your guru crap wherever. Go read the Scottish or Georgia sites to get an idea. Your tagline doesn't help matters either. And for fuck's sake lay off the commas. You must have missed the part in Creative Writing on brevity of a statement/sentance/thought/loadblowage.
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The way I take it, there are places in which humour and levity are appropriate, and there are places in which it is appropriate to be deadly serious. The latter I take to include matters of ethics and especially personal safety; the former I take to be most anything else. I'm sorry if I don't come off as jovial when discussing asbestos. However, I think that many people have misconceptions about the exact nature of the stuff - it's really nasty, and to treat it as anything but is a serious error.
As to "guru crap", I have done a lot of research on the various hazards one may encounter when exploring, both for a job I once held and in order to be safe while exploring. I do, in a sense, see myself as something of an expert on the subject. And I think one of the biggest contributions I can make to the UE community is to share this knowledge - there are a lot of people who are just getting into this hobby, and who don't really have a good sense of what they're doing yet. I sure as hell didn't when I started out. I bought my first respirator about four years after I started exploring; meaning, for four years I was breathing whatever crap happened to be ambient in the environment. Why not try to make sure that others don't go four years without protecting themselves against a slew of real and present dangers?
In terms of my rather verbose & comma-friendly writing style, that's just how I talk. In speaking it probably comes across as less weighty, but in writing I'm sure it does sound a little top-heavy. As it turns out, my major Creative Writing teacher throughout college was a big fan of Joyce, Beckett and Borges - so the whole "brevity of a statement/sentance/thought/loadblowage" was never really an issue. 
My tagline is a joke - it's just my canned response to getting shaken down by the Bac-O's.
And for your information, I just took a really great dump. It was about a foot long and curly. I named it George. 
Happy trails!
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Ian
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
The County of Kings
Gender: Male
"Great architecture has only two natural enemies: water, and stupid men."
| | Re: Asbestos, souvenirs, & leaving things behind.
<Reply # 12 on 12/6/2005 3:52 PM >
| | | | Posted by Dowcet
That seems a little misleading assuming the other things I have read are not totally off-base... If it were exactly like that, it wouldn't be that big of deal to skip the respirator if you don't explore old buildings that much. But my understanding is that one-time moderate exposure COULD kill you, through it will take at least 10 years and depends on a lot of other factors... Am I wrong?
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Nope, you're exactly correct. The funny thing about asbestos is that some people worked with it for decades and never showed a single ill-effect; other people have an exposure or two, and five or twenty years down the road, contract mesothelioma.
While the whole papercut thing is relatively nasty (and particularly applicable to the larger particulate asbestos), the extremely nasty bit is the fact that asbestos never leaves your lungs. It lays in wait like a time bomb, and years down the road a single particle might cause the mutation which eventually breeds one of the cancers.
There is no decent reason ever to ignore asbestos. Respirators should never be thought of as optional in asbestos-laden or even potentially asbestos-laden environments. It is a common misconception that one is not really at risk unless one works with the stuff regularly. However, this is simply not the case.
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Jonsered
location:
Back in New Mexico where I belong
Gender: Male
Dressed for a scarecrow ball.........
| |  | | Re: Asbestos, souvenirs, & leaving things behind.
<Reply # 13 on 12/6/2005 4:02 PM >
| | | | Asbestos ahs been well covered, so I'll leave it alone.
Taking rocks and chips of concrete doesnt' bother me at all. Nails, bolts, etc. are slightly different, but I'm not going to throw a fit.
I think a notebook or registry of some kind is kind of cool. Gives future explorers an idea of who has been there and when.
I have changed my personal exploring ethics code. From now on it will be: "Take only aimed shots, leave only hobo corpses." Copper scrappers, meth heads and homeless beware. The Jonsered cometh among you, bringing fear and dread.
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maxt
location:
Tampa Bay, FL
Gender: Male
RAR!
| | Re: Asbestos, souvenirs, & leaving things behind.
<Reply # 14 on 12/6/2005 4:51 PM >
| | | | According to the CDC, these are the criteria:
How many fibers in the air?
How long are you exposed?
How often are you exposed?
What type of asbestos (amphibole or chrysotile)?
Do you smoke?
The broad majority of mesothelioma and asbestosis cases are people that are exposed relatively frequently at decent concentrations.
OSHA regs:
Permissible Exposure Limit: In both general industry and construction, workplace exposure must be limited to 0.2 fibers per cubic centimeter of air (0.2 f/cc), averaged over an eight-hour work shift. The excursion or short-term limit is one fiber per cubic centimeter of air (1 f/cc) averaged over a sampling period of 30 minutes.
So is it dangerous? Yes. Should care be taken? Yup. Should you have a p100 respy on hand? Sure thing, boss. BUT what you need to also keep in mind is that mesothelioma is now BIG business. In my local area, it's even reached the point where the same law firms that were doing personal injury crap are now blasting ads on TV about mesothelioma and if you have EVER been exposed to asbestos, then you need to collect your cash. Tampa, FL isn't exactly Libby, Montana. And a quick perusal of google leads to many many Meso Lawyers. And yes, it has become a racket, with lawyers getting together with workers and Unions, class actioning, and collecting a decent payout whether there is evidence of the disease or not.
But in the interest of public health, here's the deal:
1. Take off your clothes and put on your exploring clothes. This should preferabbly done where no one can see you, since explorers are a ....well... "Attractive" lot. Make sure to include shoes or full foot booties. They should be impermiable, such as a Tyvek suit, since asbestos fibers can also penetrate and form callus looking nodules on your skin.
2. Place your favorite full face P100 respirator on your noggin since asbestos fibers could also make nice nodules on your eyeballs. Negative and positive pressure checks before entering area.
3. Enter Area.
4. Leave area
5. Before getting back into the car or going anywhere, you must get washed off! Try not to do this around other people, since killing them would not be in their best interest. Perhaps a garden hose, or abandoned car wash. Oh, and if you took your suit or respy off THEN showered, YOU'RE DEAD SILLY! Wash your stylish Tyvek suit first with you still in it, then peel your sweaty ass out of it, keep showering, then keep water going on your head and remove your respy. Congrats, you lived!
6. Don't be a dummy and put your possibly still contaminated shoes, suit or respy in the child's carseat in the back of your stylish sedan or pickup. Unless you like wet and sodden seats riddled with the death of course. Death always needs to be placed in the bed of the truck or strapped to the top of your car.
7. Dispose of contaminated items properly. I recommend a glad bag or transdimensional portal. Out of sight, out of mind, eh? Put the bagged or wormholed items out by the curb for your friendly expert refuse managers.
8. Walk inside and kiss you loved ones on a job well done. Dream of negative pressure containments containing the swedish bikini team and smile with the knowledge that you *know* the proper decontamination techniques.
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