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tick
 
location:
Abingdon, VA
Gender: Male
 |  |  |  | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 120 on 1/10/2006 10:06 PM >
|  | | | Posted by Zero Horizon
A gun is a tool, nothing more, and in the defensive chain, it is the last line of defense, a last resort. Pulling out a gun should be the last thing anyone should do. Prior to that, verbal de-escalation, an attempt to leave the scene, pepper spray, etc., should all be utilized--anything at all to avoid the possible use of deadly force. Also, as I said earlier, the odds of being the victim of a violent crime may be one in every thousand or ten thousand--however, I don't want to be that one person, no matter how remote the chance, and I take precautions to ensure as much.
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Well put.
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montyburns
Excellent!
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 121 on 1/10/2006 11:16 PM >
|  | | | Posted by Zero Horizon
10. There's a prevalent theory here that if you pull out a weapon the bad guy will take it away from you...well, duh...IF you don't use it. And if you're not willing to use it, you shouldn't have pulled it out in the first place.
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Sorry if I assumed that you meant "shoot someone" when you wrote this. I don't know where I got that idea from. I guess I also misunderstood the process of weighing whether or not you should take a gun that you do? or do not mean to use. God I'm confused. Do you think that waving a gun in the air will scare someone away? No wait, you said that was bad. Please help me-how do you define "using a gun" in the context of self defense without shooting someone but also without waving it around in the air?
I happily live in Calgary (hardly the jungle of East Texas), but was raised in rural Northern Alberta where-if you can believe this-I was exposed to guns, hunting, fishing, etc. I like what both you and Function said about calculated risks. Is it a good idea to have a fire extinguisher at home in case of a fire? Sure! But Zero, what if there is a fire in the street? Should I carry my fire extinguisher wherever I go? Should I wear my seatbelt in my car when it's not even running? Should I get a protective suit and tote around a trailer full of stuff, just in case? When should I stop-when the world is safe for everything?
Of course I believe in personal safety, but let's use some common sense here. Just because you feel you're entitled to snoop around places that you're not really supposed to with a weapon that, when used for its true purpose (to maim or kill), doesn't mean that you should. And if you're trying to tell me that you can live with discharging a firearm into somebody to "defend yourself" when engaging in a generally passive activity, why are you even doing it?
"To let evil words and thoughts pass without contest is to participate in their corrosive triumphs." |
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Ruck
location:
Texas
Gender: Male
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 122 on 1/11/2006 12:53 AM >
| | | | Posted by montyburns
Sorry if I assumed that you meant "shoot someone" when you wrote this. I don't know where I got that idea from. I guess I also misunderstood the process of weighing whether or not you should take a gun that you do? or do not mean to use. God I'm confused. Do you think that waving a gun in the air will scare someone away? No wait, you said that was bad. Please help me-how do you define "using a gun" in the context of self defense without shooting someone but also without waving it around in the air? |
Having a gun does not mean you have to use it. You don't automatically plan on killing someone simply because you're carrying it. And sometimes, if you find yourself in a situation where you must draw your weapon, its mere presentation can often discourage your aggressors, in which case you will not have to use it. What do you do not do, however, and what you seem to be implying that everyone with a gun does, is run around looking for a reason to use it or, conversely wave it around at everyone you see. Those two particular actions are simply not acceptable.
| I happily live in Calgary (hardly the jungle of East Texas), |
We have one of the highest concentrations of meth labs in the state around here, if not the country.
| but was raised in rural Northern Alberta where-if you can believe this-I was exposed to guns, hunting, fishing, etc. I like what both you and Function said about calculated risks. Is it a good idea to have a fire extinguisher at home in case of a fire? Sure! But Zero, what if there is a fire in the street? Should I carry my fire extinguisher wherever I go? Should I wear my seatbelt in my car when it's not even running? Should I get a protective suit and tote around a trailer full of stuff, just in case? When should I stop-when the world is safe for everything? |
Some things are not practical. Carrying a fire extinguisher everywhere is not (due to size). Nor is wearing a full-body protective suit. However, we do what we can to ensure that we are not caught offguard by occurances. Having a weapon--be it gun or knife or whatever--is not an impractical practice. A multitude of perfectly legal defensive means may be carried, unobtrusively, I might add, on or about your person. You carry jumper cables in your vehicle because you have room for them. If you were on a bicycle, you would not be carrying them. See the difference? We do as much as we can to prevent bad things from happening to us. We can do everything, but we can do a lot, and preparing yourself for self-defense is one of them.
| Of course I believe in personal safety, but let's use some common sense here. Just because you feel you're entitled to snoop around places that you're not really supposed to with a weapon that, when used for its true purpose (to maim or kill), doesn't mean that you should. |
I don't feel entitled to snoop around anywhere. What I do feel entitled to, however, is the right to defend myself no matter what my location.
| And if you're trying to tell me that you can live with discharging a firearm into somebody to "defend yourself" when engaging in a generally passive activity, why are you even doing it? |
Once again, you're equating location with justification. You can be mugged going to the grocery store. You can be robbed and beaten on your way home from the gym. You can be raped on you way to the library. You can be kidnapped while sailing on your boat. These are all passive activities. Are you suggesting that a person should not have the right to defend himself during any of these activities? That's ludicrous. People don't stop going to the gym or to the grocery store or to the library, and likewise they don't give up their right to defend themselves when they do.
[last edit 1/11/2006 12:54 AM by Ruck - edited 1 times]
"For the listener, who listens in the snow, And, nothing himself, beholds Nothing that is not there and the nothing that is." ~Wallace Stevens |
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montyburns
Excellent!
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 123 on 1/11/2006 2:53 AM >
| | | | Posted by Zero Horizon
Having a gun does not mean you have to use it. You don't automatically plan on killing someone simply because you're carrying it. And sometimes, if you find yourself in a situation where you must draw your weapon, its mere presentation can often discourage your aggressors, in which case you will not have to use it. What do you do not do, however, and what you seem to be implying that everyone with a gun does, is run around looking for a reason to use it or, conversely wave it around at everyone you see. Those two particular actions are simply not acceptable.
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But honestly, isn't "presenting" a gun just a couple of shades different than waving it around? I'm not even suggesting that every person who has a gun is itching to use it. I am saying what you are saying-that the responsible gun owner has carefully considered the purpose of this "tool" and understands that using this "tool" may ultimately result in firing it into someone and killing them. Like you said, if you're not prepared to fire it, why even carry it?
People do not go to target pratise to learn how not to hit a target. People do not go hunting to shoot toward animals. And in Calgary, I haven't heard of a single person who a police officer has shot at that hasn't been killed. I think you need to accept the reality that a gun is not a tool to "present" and frighten people away, and that it was designed to kill stuff. Putting yourself in the position of having to hurt someone so that you can look at neat boilers is pretty silly.
I can tell you that I would much rather lose a tooth or get a black eye than have to go to court and explain why I shot someone, or tell my nieces, friends, family, coworkers, etc. about the time I shot that hobo in the drain.
[last edit 1/11/2006 2:54 AM by montyburns - edited 1 times]
"To let evil words and thoughts pass without contest is to participate in their corrosive triumphs." |
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function
location:
Toronto
Gender: Male
| | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 124 on 1/11/2006 3:52 PM >
| | | | Posted by Pravus
So sitting there and saying that knives are bad and people that carry knives kill babies is just stupid.. a knife is a tool.. an inanimate object can't do evil
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You're incredibly off base with your points. I have carried a knife constantly for more than 15 years, and have a collection of very nice stuff. I have my EDC, a customized Delica, clipped to my pocket at work as I type this actually.
I'm probably the least convinced person on earth that "knives are bad". I DO have strong opinions about what knives are however, and when they are smart to have on your person. Big difference. Hence the reason for the "retarded" assertion that I may choose not to bring one on UE outings despite my EDC preferences.
Your misapprehension about what precisely it was that I'm saying is telling ... and says much more about your own attitude towards the subject than mine.
[last edit 1/11/2006 4:36 PM by function - edited 2 times]
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function
location:
Toronto
Gender: Male
| | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 125 on 1/11/2006 3:59 PM >
| | | | Posted by Zero Horizon
First of all, guns have many purposes. One of which, and the one we are currently discussing here, is personal protection--most decidedly not killing.
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Who are you kidding?
We're not talking about guns here. We're talking about pistol carry for safety of one's person. We know precisely why people choose to carry a pistol, and it isn't to handle the sudden urge to hit a target range, or compare notes with a fellow collector on the bus home. Get real. Many purposes? Not in this context.
Speaking of getting real: the act of personal protection, with a pistol, _involves killing_ or the very real possibility thereof. If you think otherwise, you're not operating within the realm of reality, and might want to talk to some cops about the force spectrum sometime.
I am not aqn opponent of CCW, but let's have our heads on straight about what it is and isn't.
[last edit 1/11/2006 4:36 PM by function - edited 1 times]
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function
location:
Toronto
Gender: Male
| | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 126 on 1/11/2006 4:05 PM >
| | | | Posted by Zero Horizon
And sometimes, if you find yourself in a situation where you must draw your weapon, its mere presentation can often discourage your aggressors, in which case you will not have to use it. |
Now there's a gamble ...
I suggest some quality time in the dedicated CCW / armed defense forums for those into weapons and these sorts of anecdotes and theories. The idea of brandishing as defense is not very popular amongst those folks, and many of them have personal experiences that brought them to that conclusion. FWIW.
Which brings me to:
Posted by montyburns
I think you need to accept the reality that a gun is not a tool to "present" and frighten people away, and that it was designed to kill stuff.
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Amen ... hence the protracted discussions about stopping power you'll see in any forum where CCW a is serious topic.
Hell, how much UE happens in places well lit enough that these supposed attackers would even clearly see a brandished knife or pistol? Come on.
[last edit 1/11/2006 4:37 PM by function - edited 5 times]
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Ruck
location:
Texas
Gender: Male
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 127 on 1/11/2006 6:24 PM >
| | | | Posted by montyburns
But honestly, isn't "presenting" a gun just a couple of shades different than waving it around? I'm not even suggesting that every person who has a gun is itching to use it. I am saying what you are saying-that the responsible gun owner has carefully considered the purpose of this "tool" and understands that using this "tool" may ultimately result in firing it into someone and killing them. Like you said, if you're not prepared to fire it, why even carry it? |
No, it's not a couple of shades different than just waving it around. You should only draw a gun when you feel your life is in immenent danger and not a moment before. And in that space of time between you drawing it and actually using it, many situations will be defused by the firearm's presence. Many won't. It's a dual feature--before you fire the weapon perhaps it will frighten your attacker away. If it doesn't, then you're still exactly where you were--in danger of immenent of life and limb and preparing to defend yourself. This scenario is so incredibly different from "waving the gun around" that it should not, in light of common sense, need discussion.
| People do not go to target pratise to learn how not to hit a target. People do not go hunting to shoot toward animals. And in Calgary, I haven't heard of a single person who a police officer has shot at that hasn't been killed. I think you need to accept the reality that a gun is not a tool to "present" and frighten people away, and that it was designed to kill stuff. Putting yourself in the position of having to hurt someone so that you can look at neat boilers is pretty silly. |
I never said it was only a tool to present. If you would, for a moment, stop drawing inferences from what I say that substantiate your claims and instead actually read what I'm typing, you'll see that I said in many instances all that's necessary to effect the defense of your person is to present a weapon. By no means did I say that's all a gun was for. And it still is a tool, an inanimate object with no capacity for evil or destruction other than that possessed by the person carrying/holding it. Also, you're still confused on the location vs. justification issue. Please reread my post.
I can tell you that I would much rather lose a tooth or get a black eye than have to go to court and explain why I shot someone, or tell my nieces, friends, family, coworkers, etc. about the time I shot that hobo in the drain.
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I'm glad that you can be so certain of your attacker's intentions prior to the conflict. You're still missing the point, however. Once again you seem to think that pulling out a gun is step number one...when in fact it is nowhere near such.
Posted by function
Who are you kidding?
We're not talking about guns here. We're talking about pistol carry for safety of one's person. We know precisely why people choose to carry a pistol, and it isn't to handle the sudden urge to hit a target range, or compare notes with a fellow collector on the bus home. Get real. Many purposes? Not in this context. |
I said guns have many purposes besides "killing" in response to one poster's notion that pistols are only for killing. Please don't try to warp what I say into fooder for a silly argument.
| Speaking of getting real: the act of personal protection, with a pistol, _involves killing_ or the very real possibility thereof. |
Self-defense is simply that--self-defense. Of course there is a possibility of deadly force involved. I never said otherwise. But if you approach it with a kill-them-all-and-let-God-sort-them-out philosophy--and that seems to be the only way many people regard self-defense--well, you're terribly mistaken about it.
| If you think otherwise, you're not operating within the realm of reality, and might want to talk to some cops about the force spectrum sometime. |
Thank you, but I do not feel the need nor inclination to discuss my qualifications regarding the topic on this forum.
I am not aqn opponent of CCW, but let's have our heads on straight about what it is and isn't.
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I do. Do you? Perhaps you might try attending a CCW class in your area, as a spectator if nothing more. There is a font of knowledge to be gained there.
Now there's a gamble ...
I suggest some quality time in the dedicated CCW / armed defense forums for those into weapons and these sorts of anecdotes and theories. The idea of brandishing as defense is not very popular amongst those folks, and many of them have personal experiences that brought them to that conclusion. FWIW. |
I can direct you to several such websites if you are so inclined. What you'll find in many instances is that not a shot was fired--the presence of a weapon led to de-escalation of the situation. That is very different from brandishing. I hope you know the difference.
Amen ... hence the protracted discussions about stopping power you'll see in any forum where CCW a is serious topic.
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Stopping power...not killing power. There is a difference. The object of self-defense is to incapacitate your attacker so that he cannot continue to attack you. Death just sometimes happens to be an unfortunate side effect of that incapacitation. On legitimate CCW boards you will not find posters talking about how well they can kill with their weapons or how many people they can kill people with their weapons--what you will find is a discussion of the best tools available for self-defense.
[last edit 1/11/2006 6:30 PM by Ruck - edited 2 times]
"For the listener, who listens in the snow, And, nothing himself, beholds Nothing that is not there and the nothing that is." ~Wallace Stevens |
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montyburns
Excellent!
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 128 on 1/11/2006 6:35 PM >
| | | | It's obvious that this discussion cannot be decided on our knowledge of the Force...but with a lightsabre(but only if the sight of it scares someone away).
"To let evil words and thoughts pass without contest is to participate in their corrosive triumphs." |
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Ruck
location:
Texas
Gender: Male
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 129 on 1/11/2006 6:41 PM >
| | | | Posted by montyburns
It's obvious that this discussion cannot be decided on our knowledge of the Force...but with a lightsabre(but only if the sight of it scares someone away).
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As you have moved beyond the bounds of legitimate discussion I am no longer going to respond to you. When you feel that you have succeeded in formulating a careful and thought out reply, please post it.
"For the listener, who listens in the snow, And, nothing himself, beholds Nothing that is not there and the nothing that is." ~Wallace Stevens |
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montyburns
Excellent!
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 130 on 1/11/2006 7:10 PM >
| | | | We seem to be arguing in circles over the same things-you like guns and I don't and there are a ton of opposing values that go with those opinions. Having stated that I think it's a mistake to take guns Ueing and having heard many of your reasons why it's an awesome idea, I thought we might as well end on a high note with a Star Wars quote that everyone could enjoy. However, if you want to continue sniping at each other and pointing out how ignorant the other is we can do that too.
[last edit 1/11/2006 7:14 PM by montyburns - edited 1 times]
"To let evil words and thoughts pass without contest is to participate in their corrosive triumphs." |
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Ruck
location:
Texas
Gender: Male
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 131 on 1/11/2006 7:11 PM >
| | | | You speak truth, young Padawan. There is much in your words. I shall...ponder this.
"For the listener, who listens in the snow, And, nothing himself, beholds Nothing that is not there and the nothing that is." ~Wallace Stevens |
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Zensins
location:
Florida
Gender: Male
Sunlight on chrome, the blur of the landscape, every nerve aware.
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 132 on 1/12/2006 4:44 AM >
| | | | Yeah, this topic has been talked to death (no pun intended) but I thought I'd chip in my 2 cents anyway...
I agree that it definitely depends on the location. Is there a real chance of encountering cops? Then don't bring a gun. Trespass = misdemeanor. Armed trespass = felony. Then you've got that lovely 10-20-Life thing, at least here in Florida. Commit a crime and use a gun means min-mandatory 10 years. Two crimes with a gun, 20 years, and so on. Where it gets really bad is when they start stacking charges. For example, if caught UEing you could get charged with B&E and trespassing. If you have a gun when caught however, that's 2 crimes with a gun = 20 years because you committed 2 crimes "with a gun". So it boils down to playing the odds. Personally I would never bring a gun for UE because of how harsh the laws are. If its a situation that I wouldn't go into without a firearm, its a situation I'd pass on. However, there are alternatives...
Grabbing a piece of rebar, a stick, a sharp piece of metal etc. that you find on site can bring some comfort. You can always just drop it if things start to get hot with cops. A pocket knife is gray area depending on where you are. Swiss Army is a good suggestion but I'd take an 18" piece of rebar over a 2" Swiss Army blade for self defense. Still, a good knife is something I rarely do without, even just for walking around in the "normal" world. Pepper spray is super-useful but check the laws in your state on carrying it, especially concealed.
Like everything in life, it's about risk vs. reward. In order to balance one against the other you have to be able to accurately calculate the risks.
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function
location:
Toronto
Gender: Male
| | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 133 on 1/12/2006 3:54 PM >
| | | | Posted by Zensins
Swiss Army is a good suggestion but I'd take an 18" piece of rebar over a 2" Swiss Army blade for self defense. |
What makes a Swiss Army knife (most don't even have a lock, nevermind one of the better locks) a "good suggestion" here? Please ... the people out there who take this stuff seriously choose very different equipment.
[last edit 1/12/2006 5:19 PM by function - edited 2 times]
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function
location:
Toronto
Gender: Male
| | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 134 on 1/12/2006 5:33 PM >
| | | | Posted by Zero Horizon
But if you approach it with a kill-them-all-and-let-God-sort-them-out philosophy--and that seems to be the only way many people regard self-defense--well, you're terribly mistaken about it. |
Hey, the thread started with "kill someone" as an established theme. I wouldn't have gone there otherwise and haven't discussed any of my own philosophy.
| Death just sometimes happens to be an unfortunate side effect of that incapacitation. |
LOL ... well it's a "side effect" we shouldn't dance around, given its gravity.
| On legitimate CCW boards you will not find posters talking about how well they can kill with their weapons or how many people they can kill people with their weapons--what you will find is a discussion of the best tools available for self-defense. |
Largely because there's a certain decorum and civility about not reflexively going into detail as to just what "best tools" efficacy can really entail.
I think we can both agree on one thing, Zero Horizon: people into weapons would be much better served going to those types of forums, rather than poking vaguely at the subject in a UE forum.
[last edit 1/12/2006 5:34 PM by function - edited 1 times]
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Zensins
location:
Florida
Gender: Male
Sunlight on chrome, the blur of the landscape, every nerve aware.
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 135 on 1/12/2006 9:44 PM >
| | | | Posted by function
What makes a Swiss Army knife (most don't even have a lock, nevermind one of the better locks) a "good suggestion" here? Please ... the people out there who take this stuff seriously choose very different equipment.
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A Swiss Army knife is a good piece of equipment to have for UE for a couple reasons, most of which were already covered so I didn't want to be redundant, but since you asked... A cutting tool can come in handy. Swiss Army knives are considered more "tool" than "weapon" by most, including cops if you are unfortunate enough to get busted. For self defense, a small blade can swing the balance in a physical confrontation in your favor. I hope I don't have to remind anyone how effective box cutters with 1" blades were in recent headline news. Is it the perfect choice for a knife fight? No. Is it my choice? No. Have Swiss Army knives ever come in handy for more mundane tasks during UE? You bet.
There is nothing I take more seriously than my own life, health, and well-being. But the reality, once the fantasies are swept to the side, is that most UErs are more likely to run into cops than an armed assailant looking to physically attack them. (Wait, cops ARE armed assailants looking to physically attack people! But you know what I mean.) So if you are going into a typical UE scenario, and not factoring in the "post-bust" scenario, then you deserve the felony weapons charge you're signing up for.
Go look at the "Most scary UE experiences" thread. No one is telling stories about meeting monsters or ninja villains, getting into gun/knife fights, or any other life threatening situation in which an Uzi would have been "darn nice to have". Usually if they had a gun, they'd have shot their own reflection. Face it, it might not be as glamorous, but our biggest REAL dangers are: cops, security guards, collapsing structures, flooding, electrical hazards, gas from rotting vegetation, sharp debris, rusty nails, and the like.
Now before anyone starts in on how I'm just an anti-gun liberal, here's a peek into my inventory: Bushmaster CAR-15 assault rifle, SKS assault rifle, Winchester Model 1200 Police 12 gauge pump in stainless with pistol grip, S&W .357, Colt .44, Taurus .38 Ultralight, lots of other assorted firearms, a 3' katana dated to the 1400s, a handmade combat knife with a 12" blade taken from a dead Japanese soldier during WWII by my grandfather, Gerber Mark II dagger, various other bladed weapons, 2 kevlar vests, Spectra II anti-puncture shirt, etc. I can armor up when its called for, and have. But I am a realist and I don't need to carry the LIABILITY of a firearm just because "it's dark and scary in there."
I don't even own a Swiss Army knife now days. Leatherman's tools are better, imho, anyway but generally I carry a Buck lockback when I feel a knife may be handy, which is usually. It can be opened and closed quickly with one hand, has a 2.5" long (thick) blade, locks open, and has a clip so that the clip is on the outside of my pocket for easy access. It'd be very handy in a fight, but if I got caught with it in an abandoned building by a cop/guard, would likely not get me written up for "felony armed trespass".
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Cowboy Wayne
location:
Evansville, Indiana.
Gender: Male
I'm sorry; I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 136 on 1/12/2006 11:11 PM >
| | | | | Stopping power...not killing power. There is a difference. The object of self-defense is to incapacitate your attacker so that he cannot continue to attack you. Death just sometimes happens to be an unfortunate side effect of that incapacitation. On legitimate CCW boards you will not find posters talking about how well they can kill with their weapons or how many people they can kill people with their weapons--what you will find is a discussion of the best tools available for self-defense. |
Stopping power is killing power. When a person is "stopped" by a bullet, it's because the trauma of - say - 600 some odd Joules of force slamming into center mass causes a bit of a shock to their nervous system. More stopping power = more tissue damage = more likely death. Then you get into hydrostatic shock and all that (if you believe in it.)
If I ever carry a gun (I don't plan on it, but I'm by no means opposed to CCW) I'd take it UEing as well. Just be smart about it. Avoid dangerous areas. Attempt to de-escalate the situation with words. From what I hear from CCW holders, don't clear leather unless he takes a threatening action, and don't clear leather if you're not going to immediately fire.
Just out of curiosity, what are all you guys' self defense laws? I live in Indiana. Our gun laws are pretty lax (D- on the "Brady Grade") and our self-defense laws, from what I've seen, are very reasonable.
EDIT: Spelling errors.
[last edit 1/13/2006 2:19 AM by Cowboy Wayne - edited 1 times]
No, the guy in my av isn't actually me. |
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KublaKhan
location:
Edinburgh, Scotland
With Satan, it's always gimmie, gimmie.
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 137 on 1/13/2006 12:51 AM >
|  | | | I never go anywhere without these:
"The truth is knowable. But probably not, ever, incontrovertible."
--Don DeLillo
PICS |
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Ruck
location:
Texas
Gender: Male
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 138 on 1/13/2006 1:59 AM >
| | | | Posted by Cowboy Wayne
Just out of curiosity, what are all you guys' self defense laws? I liver in Indiana. Our gun laws are pretty lax (D- on the "Brady Grade") and our self-defense laws, from what I've seen, are very reasonable.
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Texas is a good state for gun owners. Not quite as good as, say, Arizona, but it's better than most of the other states.
"For the listener, who listens in the snow, And, nothing himself, beholds Nothing that is not there and the nothing that is." ~Wallace Stevens |
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KublaKhan
location:
Edinburgh, Scotland
With Satan, it's always gimmie, gimmie.
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 139 on 1/13/2006 4:17 AM >
| | | | Posted by Zero Horizon
Texas is a good state for gun owners. Not quite as good as, say, Arizona, but it's better than most of the other states.
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When I visit Texas, I always bring some of these:
"The truth is knowable. But probably not, ever, incontrovertible."
--Don DeLillo
PICS |
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