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Pravus
 
location:
Chicago Area
Gender: Male
Now the two key words for tonight - "caution" and "flammable"...
 |  |  |  | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 100 on 1/3/2006 8:52 AM >
|  | | | Posted by Freak
You might be able to get them in trouble for that, these days most cop cars have dahboard cameras, which would record them busting your light.
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Problem with things like ASPs and knives though is normally they write the laws so grey that they can kinda do whatever they want and legally get away with it by a simple "he was acting kinda funny and I thought he was planning on jumping someone" and bam its legal.. not to mention that they HEAVILY stereotype you when you are caught with anything slightly questionable
Live to Serve, Serve to Live.. |
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Chiaroscuro
location:
Thailand
| |  | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 101 on 1/4/2006 6:43 PM >
| | | | I'm lucky enough to have a leathermen charge- a legitimate knife, unlike most multi-tools: but only because the blade opens from the outside of the handle. it's not substitute for a combat knife for fighting, but it's better than nothing.
other than that, I'm moderately accomplished in jujitsu and krav maga, and I'm not scared of the local fighters because I can take any hits they can dish out and I can dish out hits that they can't take (I'm currently in thailand, so i'm twice the size of anyone who would usually want to fight me).
other than my fists and the leathermen, I never take any weapons. I can see needing them in some areas here- down south in phuket, for example, where they have basically a muslim civil war going on and farang (foreigners) are targets, but even then, a flak vest would be a better investment than a gun. just blend in, and don't go into obvious squat houses.
-Cheers
Santafeur
"my invisible friend told me to tell you- hello." |
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schematics
location:
secret underground lair, Edmonton, AB
Gender: Male
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 102 on 1/6/2006 8:33 AM >
|  | | | I'm somewhat inexperienced , but personally I've never run into anyone but security guards (watching TV, both times) on a UE site, so I've got to wonder what kind of site people have been threatened in.
I generally carry a carpet knife, the kind with the inch long blade, and for draining I'll take a crowbar. Thing is, it's almost never about combat, it's generally about getting caught. There's no law about carrying around a crowbar, but I generally don't take it because people don't accept that a crowbar can have multiple purposes outside of a construction site that don't include breaking and entering.
If you carry a weapon, most often you won't need it and won't get caught, It's less likely you'll be caught, and it's extremely unlikely that you'll actually need it. sure, it's a matter of probability that you'll end up fighting the insane crack-head-sewer-mutant-thug-kung-fu-master-hobo-gangster with superhuman strength, but I'll willing to stake my safety on there being no situation that sharp wits, fast legs and charismatic diplomacy won't get you out of.
if wishes were horses, we'd all be eatin' steak |
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Ruck
location:
Texas
Gender: Male
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 103 on 1/7/2006 9:52 AM >
| | | | Thank God there's finally some people with some modicum of common sense on here. Look, if you don't want to carry a weapon, that's fine, but don't carry one for the right reasons.
1. Carrying a weapon does not make you bloodthirsty. You could sit and hold a gun for 30 minutes--at the end of that time you'd feel no more inclined to go on a killing spree than you did before you had the gun.
2. To the person who said: "...world is not as hostile as you might think...." I'm sure all the victims of violent crime would love to have that reassurance. Be sure and let us know how they respond.
3. No one is suggesting that everyone should run around waving a gun. The people who think otherwise obviously have gotten their education from television.
4. Having a concealed carry license for a handgun doesn't help you if you're trespassing (as one poster already noted). In fact it can (and most likely will) escalate the criminal charge.
5. ASP batons are highly regulated in many states (they certainly are here in Texas). Merely having one will land you in trouble if the cops find you with it. So in short, batons are nice, but not nearly worth the legal hassle. Maglites provide light and can serve the same function.
6. Fixed blade knives are generally a no-no. They're big, unwieldy, and automatically put you on the shitlist of any cop you meet. Stick with a folding blade--it's more convenient for regular chores, and unless you've had specialized training in using "big" knives for combat, will do you much better than a 10" bowie in a fight.
7. Not all problems can be solved by talking, or running, or just going along with the bad guy. I've met junkies who would roll you for the change in your pocket just so they can go buy a dime bag. I've met good ol' boys who would stomp the shit out of you just because they can. I've met guys who want to kick your ass because they think you looked at them. If you can honestly tell me you wouldn't feel uncomfortable exploring a house with your girlfriend when a bunch of drunk guys show up, then you're a whole lot braver than I am.
8. Unarmed combat against multiple opponents is a fallacy. Fighting is hard enough one on one--throw another person into the mix and unless you're one of the fortunate individuals who just happen to be a total hard ass it's like paddling a leaky rowboat across the Atlantic. And let's not forget for a moment that unarmed combat (cheesy term, I know, that brings to mind ninja-wannabes--but hey, it's accurate) is by no means a safe bet in itself. You could be knocked down and hit your head on the ground, fall and land on something sharp, etc. A guy my dad went to school with got into a fight one night about ten years ago. He was hit once, fell down, struck his head on a car bumper, and was mentally incapacitated for the rest of his life. So it's not just an ass kicking you have to worry about.
9. A weapon will not make a situation worse. The only time a weapon should be presented is when bodily harm is eminent and there is no other alternative, and when that happens, folks, there's really no way things could get any worse. People on here talk about pulling out a weapon and making their assailant even more angry/aggressive...as if that assailant had some inherent right to harm people and that people should resign themselves to such harm. Call me crazy, but if I was a girl and a couple of guys were about to rape me, "escalating" the situation by pulling a weapon would be the least of my worries.
10. There's a prevalent theory here that if you pull out a weapon the bad guy will take it away from you...well, duh...IF you don't use it. And if you're not willing to use it, you shouldn't have pulled it out in the first place.
11. Ultimately, the best weapon is your mind. Stay out of bad situations, be aware of your surroundings, and follow your instinctions, and 90% of the time you'll be just fine. It's that other 10% you have to look out for.
So in closing, carry a weapon or don't. It's each person's decision and everyone has their reasons for it. Just be sure the decision is made based on intelligent thought and not ignorance. And if you do decide to carry a weapon, whatever it may be, please be aware of the legalities of your actions and the potential ramifications resulting from its use.
"For the listener, who listens in the snow, And, nothing himself, beholds Nothing that is not there and the nothing that is." ~Wallace Stevens |
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function
location:
Toronto
Gender: Male
| |  | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 104 on 1/9/2006 10:31 PM >
| | | | Posted by Logan
While I was gathering my gear for my most recent outing I had trouble deciding if I wanted to bring along my knife or not. I mean, its good to have it in case you need it, but if you have it you will use it. And the last thing I need is to kill someone. Anyone else ever think of this? Any suggestions/tips?
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No offense, but you don't come across as a real harda$$ in your pic. Maybe I'm wrong but my guess is a grown man with any serious degree of intent, strength, or training (God help you if you face all three) is going to take your fairly nice and expensive automatic knife out of your hand, and jam it in you before you entertain any thoughts where you "kill someone". Get a grip. Leave it at home when out if this is your primary motivation, especially if it's an automatic, which cops just LOVE to see (sarcasm). Even better, try to relate to knives a little differently.
[last edit 1/9/2006 10:56 PM by function - edited 4 times]
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function
location:
Toronto
Gender: Male
| | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 105 on 1/9/2006 10:36 PM >
| | | | Posted by CyberShoe
So a pocket knife, maglite, or wrench isn't automatically considered a weapon simply by possessing it. In fact, being involved in UE could serve to strengthen any argument that those items were not intended for use as weapons. However, if you're walking through an abandoned building with a baseball bat, a reasonable inference could be made that you intended to use it as a weapon.
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Unless you post to various Internet forums discussing your preference for carrying that item as a weapon in case you need to "kill somebody". It gets real easy to make the "inference" then, no?
My personal take on this issue is that if you find yourself strongly preoccupied with the idea of carrying items as weapons, consider why it is you feel unable to get out bad situations without one, and if a weapon can really help someone who isn't trained to use it. Be honest with yourself.
(Speaking of being honest, I'm not sure what kind of amazing defense attorneys and lengthy trials ya'll plan to have access to when making these various elaborate arguments about reasonable suspicion, or using UE as a defense -- trespassing as a defense against another charge ... in your dreams! -- but I wouldn't bank on those things after the fact ... like SERIOUSLY wouldn't, as in, wake up.)
[last edit 1/9/2006 11:03 PM by function - edited 3 times]
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function
location:
Toronto
Gender: Male
| | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 106 on 1/9/2006 10:47 PM >
| | | | Sorry if any of the above offends anyone, but I truly think UE is much safer, and any interaction with police far easier, when fewer weapons are involved. Peace.
[last edit 1/9/2006 10:50 PM by function - edited 1 times]
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Ruck
location:
Texas
Gender: Male
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 107 on 1/10/2006 12:59 AM >
| | | | Posted by function
My personal take on this issue is that if you find yourself strongly preoccupied with the idea of carrying items as weapons, consider why it is you feel unable to get out bad situations without one, |
Perhaps we should ask all the victims of rapes and assaults why they weren't able to get out of bad situations without a weapon. There's many times you can get out of a situation without a weapon...and if that's the case, and you have a weapon, it should still be safely tucked away after the fact since there was no reason to pull it out. I can't get over this attitude that merely carrying a weapon is going to lead you to be over-eager to use it.
and if a weapon can really help someone who isn't trained to use it. Be honest with yourself.
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Very good point. Most weapons won't help someone who's not willing to put in the time training with them.
Face it, you can UE 999 times out of a 1000 without needing a weapon. However, I don't care to be that 1 person that 1 time...no matter how remote the possibility. You don't put on your seatbelt because you expect to have a wreck and you don't keep fire extinguishers around because you expect to have a fire. They're specifically there for that 1 in a 1000 possibility.
"For the listener, who listens in the snow, And, nothing himself, beholds Nothing that is not there and the nothing that is." ~Wallace Stevens |
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montyburns
Excellent!
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 108 on 1/10/2006 4:50 AM >
| | | | Give me a break-there's no need for a gun when you're UEing. I don't know if bloodthirsty junkies and drunken jocks lurk around every corner in the States, but I don't buy the argument that you might need it "just in case". And maybe this is a cultural thing, but why would you even consider putting yourself in the position of killing someone because you're enjoying a hobby like UE? Oh yeah, because it's legal...
"To let evil words and thoughts pass without contest is to participate in their corrosive triumphs." |
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Ruck
location:
Texas
Gender: Male
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 109 on 1/10/2006 5:54 AM >
| | | | Posted by montyburns
Give me a break-there's no need for a gun when you're UEing. I don't know if bloodthirsty junkies and drunken jocks lurk around every corner in the States, but I don't buy the argument that you might need it "just in case".
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Alright then. Stop wearing seatbelts, stop going to the doctor to get checkups, stop having fire extinguishers around your house. Because you--people in general--do those things for a reason, and it's not because they're planning on these things happening. You have something that's worse than a victim mentality--ignorance of the possibility of anything happening at all.
And maybe this is a cultural thing, but why would you even consider putting yourself in the position of killing someone because you're enjoying a hobby like UE? Oh yeah, because it's legal...
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For that matter, why should I leave my house? I might have to defend myself on the street. Why should I go to the gym? I might have to defend there. Hell, I should just drop all my hobbies because I may have to one day defend myself.
You've missed the point completely.
"For the listener, who listens in the snow, And, nothing himself, beholds Nothing that is not there and the nothing that is." ~Wallace Stevens |
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function
location:
Toronto
Gender: Male
| | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 110 on 1/10/2006 7:10 AM >
| | | | Posted by Zero Horizon
Alright then. Stop wearing seatbelts, stop going to the doctor to get checkups, stop having fire extinguishers around your house.
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No, this doesn't totally hold water. Not all precautions are reasonable.
We take reasonable precautions every day to avoid preventable injury from known risks. We weigh the complexity and cost of the precaution against the severity of that risk. Wearing a seatbelt or buying a fire extinguisher are low cost precautions and ones that greatly improve our odds of avoiding injury (according to easily verifiable statistics, not anecdotes or appeals to principle).
Even assuming (and I doubt this is even true) that there were statistics that are verifiable and significant to back up the claim that a weapon in the hands of an average person is an effective precaution for the risk that we're discussing here (namely physical harm from another during UE missions) -- it still isn't immediately obvious the precaution is of low "complexity and cost" if we factor in the threat of injury due to being _charged with carrying the weapon_. No such downside exists to buying a fire extinguisher and that's why the analogy presented is inaccurate.
When the weapon of choice discussed is a knife, of all things, do we truly believe that, in the hands of an average person, the odds of "success" in avoiding injury (i.e. effectively inflicting it on an assailant, even during a surprise attack) are high enough to make it both an _effective_ and reasonable precaution?
IMHO the legal risk alone is too high to entertain carrying any sort of weapon or item that could be employed as a weapon when considered against a) the real likelihood I could effectively use that weapon to better my odds of living through such an attack and b) the odds of an attack of that nature occurring. It makes the precaution unreasonable even it _was_ effective.
[last edit 1/10/2006 7:16 AM by function - edited 3 times]
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montyburns
Excellent!
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 111 on 1/10/2006 7:52 AM >
| | | | Posted by Zero Horizon
For that matter, why should I leave my house? I might have to defend myself on the street. Why should I go to the gym? I might have to defend there. Hell, I should just drop all my hobbies because I may have to one day defend myself.
You've missed the point completely.
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Point schmoint. The original question was whether or not to bring a weapon for UE, and I'm saying that bringing a gun-which you are essentially arguing is for killing and only killing-is utterly ridiculous. I also acknowledged my ignorance on account of my culture and that I just don't see why you would risk killing someone to go snoop around a drain. What I find troubling is that you're able to presumably sit down and say, well if I take this gun I better be ready to use it and exploring an abandoned building is definitely worth killing someone over.
Again, it may be a cultural thing but I live in the inner city and I don't carry a gun. I walk around freely in my city and don't worry that there might be a coked up lunatic around every corner. And I know it's a horrible cliche, but I did not even bother to lock my car or my apartment until recently. Is it because I have something worse than the victim mentality-failure to acknowledge risk-or is it because I realised that the cost of replacing a $20 stereo is less than the $150 worth of glass that was broken to get the stereo? I think if you were serious about personal safety you'd wear a "life proof" outfit or something-toting around a gun making yourself judge, jury and executioner isn't the answer.
PS What comes after the guns?
[last edit 1/10/2006 8:04 AM by montyburns - edited 2 times]
"To let evil words and thoughts pass without contest is to participate in their corrosive triumphs." |
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Pravus
location:
Chicago Area
Gender: Male
Now the two key words for tonight - "caution" and "flammable"...
| | | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 112 on 1/10/2006 4:56 PM >
| | | | Posted by function
When the weapon of choice discussed is a knife, of all things, do we truly believe that, in the hands of an average person, the odds of "success" in avoiding injury (i.e. effectively inflicting it on an assailant, even during a surprise attack) are high enough to make it both an _effective_ and reasonable precaution?
IMHO the legal risk alone is too high to entertain carrying any sort of weapon or item that could be employed as a weapon when considered against a) the real likelihood I could effectively use that weapon to better my odds of living through such an attack and b) the odds of an attack of that nature occurring. It makes the precaution unreasonable even it _was_ effective.
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that aside the point though.. I carry a knife every day everywhere, normally I have a few on me since some deal with some jobs better then others.. So what you are saying, basically, is when I go to explore something I should leave the knife at home? Then what I am saying is thats maybe the most retarded thing I have heard.. I'm pretty sure that I get more use from my knife on the normal outing then I get use from it most weeks..
Your whole thing about 'legal risk' it's only really a risk if your stupid about things and you don't know what the laws are.. Every time I go to a different state or travel somewhere I look up the local laws to see what is legal and whats not.. I still may choose to carry an illegal knife, But at least I KNOW that I am breaking the law..
If I ever got into a fight theres no reason to pull a knife.. thats alot of explaining to the cops why you stabbed someone and it's really just not worth my time.. The only reason I could ever see pulling a knife in a fight is if the other person has the upper hand (like a gun) and they mean to kill you, in which I'll take anything to try to level the playing field.. But the chances of that happening are nil
So sitting there and saying that knives are bad and people that carry knives kill babies is just stupid.. a knife is a tool.. an inanimate object can't do evil
Live to Serve, Serve to Live.. |
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Decoy
   
location:
Leslieville
Gender: Male
Oh I have slipped the bonds of earth...
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 113 on 1/10/2006 5:11 PM >
| | | | Since I have very little firearms experience, and absolutely nothing with swords or any other ridiculous means of self-defence, I myself would never go exploring with them in my possession. Also, it's a good meter of how secure I feel about exploring a location. If I feel the need to arm myself in order to explore a location, then I don't bother.
That said, if you own and are trained to use an item for self defence, then I wouldn't mind exploring with you if you're packing a surprise or two... just don't ask me to hold your bren gun while you go to take a dump.
It's a drag, it's a bore, it's really such a pitty
To be lookin' at the board, not lookin' at the city. |
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Jonsered
location:
Back in New Mexico where I belong
Gender: Male
Dressed for a scarecrow ball.........
| |  | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 114 on 1/10/2006 5:17 PM >
| | | | Posted by montyburns
PS What comes after the guns?
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Flamethrowers. Screw the fucking homeless. They will also handle cops and boarded up windows.
I have changed my personal exploring ethics code. From now on it will be: "Take only aimed shots, leave only hobo corpses." Copper scrappers, meth heads and homeless beware. The Jonsered cometh among you, bringing fear and dread.
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montyburns
Excellent!
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 115 on 1/10/2006 5:48 PM >
| | | | Posted by Jonsered
Flamethrowers. Screw the fucking homeless. They will also handle cops and boarded up windows.
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Yeah, and then what? This is Urban Exploration, not Urban Assault.
"To let evil words and thoughts pass without contest is to participate in their corrosive triumphs." |
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Jonsered
location:
Back in New Mexico where I belong
Gender: Male
Dressed for a scarecrow ball.........
| | | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 116 on 1/10/2006 5:50 PM >
| | | | It was a joke. I only burn homeless people on the 4th of July.
I have changed my personal exploring ethics code. From now on it will be: "Take only aimed shots, leave only hobo corpses." Copper scrappers, meth heads and homeless beware. The Jonsered cometh among you, bringing fear and dread.
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Logan
 
location:
Ra-Cha-Cha, NY
Gender: Male
We miss you Jerry
| | | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 117 on 1/10/2006 5:56 PM >
| | | | Posted by function
No offense, but you don't come across as a real harda$$ in your pic. Maybe I'm wrong but my guess is a grown man with any serious degree of intent, strength, or training (God help you if you face all three) is going to take your fairly nice and expensive automatic knife out of your hand, and jam it in you before you entertain any thoughts where you "kill someone". Get a grip. Leave it at home when out if this is your primary motivation, especially if it's an automatic, which cops just LOVE to see (sarcasm). Even better, try to relate to knives a little differently.
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Dont judge a person by a playful face shot...
Cogito Ergo Sum |
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montyburns
Excellent!
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 118 on 1/10/2006 5:56 PM >
| | | | Same-but I prefer roasting a homeless person over an open fire to celebrate Christmas.
"To let evil words and thoughts pass without contest is to participate in their corrosive triumphs." |
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Ruck
location:
Texas
Gender: Male
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 119 on 1/10/2006 9:15 PM >
| | | | Posted by function
No, this doesn't totally hold water. Not all precautions are reasonable.
We take reasonable precautions every day to avoid preventable injury from known risks. We weigh the complexity and cost of the precaution against the severity of that risk. Wearing a seatbelt or buying a fire extinguisher are low cost precautions and ones that greatly improve our odds of avoiding injury (according to easily verifiable statistics, not anecdotes or appeals to principle).
Even assuming (and I doubt this is even true) that there were statistics that are verifiable and significant to back up the claim that a weapon in the hands of an average person is an effective precaution for the risk that we're discussing here (namely physical harm from another during UE missions) -- it still isn't immediately obvious the precaution is of low "complexity and cost" if we factor in the threat of injury due to being _charged with carrying the weapon_. No such downside exists to buying a fire extinguisher and that's why the analogy presented is inaccurate.
When the weapon of choice discussed is a knife, of all things, do we truly believe that, in the hands of an average person, the odds of "success" in avoiding injury (i.e. effectively inflicting it on an assailant, even during a surprise attack) are high enough to make it both an _effective_ and reasonable precaution?
IMHO the legal risk alone is too high to entertain carrying any sort of weapon or item that could be employed as a weapon when considered against a) the real likelihood I could effectively use that weapon to better my odds of living through such an attack and b) the odds of an attack of that nature occurring. It makes the precaution unreasonable even it _was_ effective.
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I'm not going to respond to you point for point--it is not my intention to debate the topic any further than necessary to establish two opposing viewpoints. As I have said, I don't care if people carry weapons or don't carry weapons, as long as they make their decision based on fact and logic and not ignorance. As you obviously have thought out you decision to not carry a weapon, and have a valid reasoning behind it, kudos to you.
Posted by montyburns
Point schmoint. The original question was whether or not to bring a weapon for UE, and I'm saying that bringing a gun-which you are essentially arguing is for killing and only killing-is utterly ridiculous. I also acknowledged my ignorance on account of my culture and that I just don't see why you would risk killing someone to go snoop around a drain. What I find troubling is that you're able to presumably sit down and say, well if I take this gun I better be ready to use it and exploring an abandoned building is definitely worth killing someone over. |
I have never implied that a gun is only for killing. If the rest of your argument is made up of such broad and fabricated implications, I suppose I should just stop right now. However, since I feel it necessary to clear up a few of your misconceptions.
First of all, guns have many purposes. One of which, and the one we are currently discussing here, is personal protection--most decidedly not killing. The fact that you automatically equate an inanimate object with the desire to commit serious personal injury--or death--against someone speaks volumes about your mindset. I've never said that exploring an abandoned building is worth killing someone over. What I have stated is that abandoned building or crowded street, rural country town or big city suburb, there is always a possibility that you will need to defend yourself. By all means, if you feel a location is one that might warrant the necessity of such force, stay away--it's far better to avoid a confrontation than to risk it. At the same time you must realize you're not making the decision to kill someone if they bother you while you're exploring this building--rather, you've made a conscious decision to defend yourself to the best of your ability no matter what your surroundings.
| Again, it may be a cultural thing but I live in the inner city and I don't carry a gun. I walk around freely in my city and don't worry that there might be a coked up lunatic around every corner. And I know it's a horrible cliche, but I did not even bother to lock my car or my apartment until recently. Is it because I have something worse than the victim mentality-failure to acknowledge risk-or is it because I realised that the cost of replacing a $20 stereo is less than the $150 worth of glass that was broken to get the stereo? I think if you were serious about personal safety you'd wear a "life proof" outfit or something-toting around a gun making yourself judge, jury and executioner isn't the answer. |
What city do you live in, if I may ask? No, you shouldn't worry there's a coked-up lunatic around every corner, but you should be aware that the possibility is always there. Let me ask you this--at what point do you defend yourself? Against someone physically assaulting you? Raping you? Attempting to murder you? Where is your reaction threshold? When you determine that, and you make the decision to defend yourself, you would think you'd want the best possible tool for defense (aside from your own brain). That's not to say that a gun will solve every problem, or that it's the greatest response to every situation. A gun is a tool, nothing more, and in the defensive chain, it is the last line of defense, a last resort. Pulling out a gun should be the last thing anyone should do. Prior to that, verbal de-escalation, an attempt to leave the scene, pepper spray, etc., should all be utilized--anything at all to avoid the possible use of deadly force. Also, as I said earlier, the odds of being the victim of a violent crime may be one in every thousand or ten thousand--however, I don't want to be that one person, no matter how remote the chance, and I take precautions to ensure as much.
It's always strange (and somewhat saddening) to see people who have gotten their education regarding firearms from television and movies. Guns aren't any worse than hammers, kitchen knives, cars (more people are killed every year from cars than guns), swimming pools, cigarettes, scissors.... As I said in a previous example, you can sit there all day holding a gun and guess what...nothing will happen. You won't feel any killing urges and you won't be anymore disposed to violence than you were beforehand.
Legal reasons are the best reason not to carry a weapon, as function has outlined. Like I said, do what you will as long as you do it for the right reasons. By the way, I'm not advocating that everyone should carry a gun with them. Just so you know.
[last edit 1/10/2006 9:19 PM by Ruck - edited 2 times]
"For the listener, who listens in the snow, And, nothing himself, beholds Nothing that is not there and the nothing that is." ~Wallace Stevens |
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Ethics