|
Viper
 
location:
Vancouver, BC Canada
Gender: Male
Trespassing On!
 |  |  | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 20 on 10/6/2005 10:45 PM >
|  | | | Posted by CyberShoe
in Canada, many of our criminal laws require the police and courts to make a judgement about your intent. |
All sections of the CCC require intent (Mens Rea and Actus Reus)
The long and the short of it is is, from a legal standpoint, if you are carrying something that could be used as a weapon, and you don't have a valid excuse for carrying it, don't get caught 
|
Not to rag on you, but again it must be proven you had the intent to use an object as a weapon in order to be charged. It's all about the intent.
Earth, the world's most dangerous planet!
"The will to do, the soul to dare." -Sir Walter Scott |
|
Sleeper_Cell
location:
OAKLAND aka The Town (Jingle Town)
Gender: Male
Gangsta
| | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 21 on 10/7/2005 1:16 AM >
|  | | | I bring out a knife at all times. It's not just for protection of wild animals and insane homeless people who love to stir up crap, but A knife is a great tool. I rock one of those utility knifes, sort of like a swiss army.
It has a wire cutter, great for barb wire and plyers.. screw driver.. you all get the point.
|
|
NezMo
location:
Worcester, Massachusetts
Gender: Male
| |  | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 22 on 10/7/2005 2:31 AM >
|  | | | I heard that here in Massachusetts a knife large than the span of your hand is considered a weapon. I dont know though. I always bring a knife about that size.
But anything can double as a weapon in a pinch. Some people threw a rock at us once, so we responded with a d battery from our flashlight. Smashed their window.
Most confrontations can be avoided however. When I run into potentially hostile people, I pretend im out of my mind and wicked messed up. Start talking to myself angrily. They usually don't dare come close.
[last edit 10/7/2005 2:32 AM by NezMo - edited 1 times]
|
|
Logan
    
location:
Ra-Cha-Cha, NY
Gender: Male
We miss you Jerry
| | | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 23 on 10/7/2005 3:07 AM >
| | | | Posted by NezMo
Most confrontations can be avoided however. When I run into potentially hostile people, I pretend im out of my mind and wicked messed up. Start talking to myself angrily. They usually don't dare come close.
|
lol, thats a good idea, I will have to try that. lol. Anyway, I know that in NY there is a certain length the blade can be. I dont remember exactly what the length is, for some reason either 5 or 8 is popping into my head.
[last edit 10/7/2005 3:08 AM by Logan - edited 1 times]
Cogito Ergo Sum |
|
Scytale
location:
Columbia, SC
Gender: Male
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 24 on 10/7/2005 3:34 AM >
| | | | My friend and I are just about to start our UE exploration this weekend. Being a progressive martial arts guy, I always carry a tactical folding knife when I leave my house. But I'm not going to bring it when we go exploring. There are a few reasons I think carrying a 'dedicated' knife is a bad idea (not a swiss army knife, although you better not even think of using that as a weapon unless the blade locks):
- Most people don't really know how to use a knife. If you don't have any training, it's usually better to run.
- If you do know how to use a knife, then you probably know that a knife vs knife fight is a horrible thing. It's nothing like the movies and you will take damage that could be permanent. It's usually better to run.
- Any thug for whom violence is more than a casual pursuit will have the best weapon he can obtain. Knives are not great against guns unless you are in grappling range. Hand over your money, or if possible, run.
- If the other guy doesn't have a knife and you use yours ... just think about how that will look to a jury. Fists are not deadly weapons - knives are. When you don't think you can handle an unarmed man without a knife, it's better to run.
- When someone is out to get you, they will not jump out of a corner a brandish their blade while waiting for you to draw yours and duel him. That would be like you calling the security at the site you are exploring and letting them know you are on the way.
- Even if you know what you are doing, carrying a 'fighting' knife is unlikely to win you points with the cops if they are already looking for something to pin on you. As mentioned above, it could help to establish 'intent'. Since we're already doing something illegal I have no desire to worsen the situation should we get caught!
So think about the situations you might encounter. Against anyone but a bum you can easily be outclassed in a fight unless you are well trained since street fighters tend to have lots of real-world practice. Even people with years in the martial arts can be floored by the ferocity and impact of a street fight, especially if their system doesn't practice full contact fighting and reality situations.
|
|
Logan
location:
Ra-Cha-Cha, NY
Gender: Male
We miss you Jerry
| | | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 25 on 10/7/2005 4:10 AM >
| | | | Very very good points Scytale.
Cogito Ergo Sum |
|
Pravus
location:
Chicago Area
Gender: Male
Now the two key words for tonight - "caution" and "flammable"...
| |  | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 26 on 10/7/2005 12:28 PM >
| | | | Posted by NezMo
I heard that here in Massachusetts a knife large than the span of your hand is considered a weapon.
|
I've heard the same thing from many cops in Illinois when trying to find out about knife laws.. As I have come to understand 'alot' of cops are morons and don't understand/know the laws.. NEVER take legal advice from a cop.. I have gotten so many different laws it's not even funny, where it all comes from here is if you carry a knife longer then 3 inches you will be considered 'armed with a dangerous weapon' Which does not 'exactly' make the knife illegal, but it'll just make them able to up the charges if it suits the situation..
If you think about it if you based laws for knives on palm size that makes no sence, if someone has massive hands they can carry a Ka-Bar where as someone else would be illegally carrying a swiss army knife..
http://pweb.netcom...levine/sta-law.htm
This is a good site to get basics of state laws, I'd also check with the few surrounding towns your in as well, just to cover your ass..
Live to Serve, Serve to Live.. |
|
CyberShoe
location:
Directly above the centre of the earth
Gender: Male
So what if I overuse ellipses...
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 27 on 10/7/2005 1:58 PM >
| | | | Posted by Viper
All sections of the CCC require intent (Mens Rea and Actus Reus)
|
There are 3 standards for liability. The standard test requires both Mens Rea and Actus Reus. There are a class of offences known as "strict liability" offences, where only the Actus Reus must be proven, at which point the onus shifts to the accused to provide justification for his or her actions. there is also a class of offences known as "absolute liability" offences, where there is _no_ defence available to the accused, except to say that the Actus Reus did not occur.
For example, take the following from s. 150.1 (4) (Sexual Offences):
(4) It is not a defence to a charge under section 151 or 152, subsection 160(3) or 173(2), or section 271, 272 or 273 that the accused believed that the complainant was fourteen years of age or more at the time the offence is alleged to have been committed unless the accused took all reasonable steps to ascertain the age of the complainant.
So you become strictly liable for your actions, regardless of your belief of the complaintant's age, unless you can establish that you were justified in your belief. (I mean "you" in the general sense, Viper. I'm not suggesting that you're a pedophile ^_^ )
Admittedly though, the vast majority of strict and absolute liability offences are not found in the Code, but in provincial or regulatory law, such as traffic tickets, or environmental violations.
Not to rag on you, but again it must be proven you had the intent to use an object as a weapon in order to be charged. It's all about the intent.
|
Intent can be inferred, and a "reasonable apprehension" can be sufficient. No one can prove conclusively what's going on in your mind, but as I said, if you bring a baseball bat to an abandoned building, a judge might draw a different conclusion than if you brought it to a ball park.
I'm not trying to make any hard and fast rules here, I'm just trying to illustrate how open to interpretation a lot of the law is, to encourage people to cover their respective asses. And to keep a good lawyer on retainer
- CyberShoe |
|
Tupsumato
location:
Finland
Gender: Male
How close can you go?
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 28 on 10/7/2005 3:15 PM >
| | | | If you need something to protect yourself, which you in most cases don't as the world is not as hostile as you might think, I'd recommend you to bring something useful that in worst case can be used as a weapon, like a multi-tool (Swiss Army knife, Leatherman) or a large flashlight (MagLite) instead of a dedicated weapon. It's very likely that you just hurt yourself with your pepper spray, knife, firearm or anything similar if you haven't got a proper training and aren't "mentally ready" to use them. No, Steven Seagal's movies aren't enough...
Why do you have an urge to hurt people anyway? It's very unlikely that you encounter someone whose only intention is to hurt you with no apparent reason.
The best way of dealing with crazy hobos or people in drugs are your own feet. Do you seriously think that someone who has lived and abused drugs or alcohol for years can run faster and longer than you? And most robbers are after your money, not your life. If you can't escape the situation, I'd recommend you to give them what they want. After all, everything you carry is just money in various forms and can be replaced easily. If you choose to defend those couple of bucks you have in your wallet you put something invaluable and unreplaceable on the line, your life and health.
Since I live in a place where I don't have to be afraid it's insignificant for me to say that I don't carry any kind of dedicated weapon with me. Sure I could use my MagLite 3D or Leatherman Wave as one, but I'd choose running first.
Offtopic: Could words like "MagLite" or "Leatherman" be added to the dictionary?
All information and details given in good faith but not guaranteed! |
|
cpkangaroo
 
location:
Longmont, CO
Gender: Male
| | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 29 on 10/7/2005 4:27 PM >
| | | | <DISCLAIMER> IANAL. The below information is not intended to be nor should it be considered legal advice. If you want legal advice, retain council. </DISCLAIMER>
Current Colorado law makes it relatively easy for most sober, sane and law-abiding individuals to obtain concealed handgun permits. Interestingly enough, this permit allows you to carry a concealed handgun, but carrying any other concealed weapon (i.e. a large knife) is still quite illegal.
I've got my permit and I usually carry my pistol whenever I think I might be find myself in a dangerous situation. I haven't done any UE for many many years, but I'd consider most of the interesting and abandoned places around me to be potentially dangerous places and would therefore make sure I was armed, just in case.
By legally carrying concealed, you avoid startling the sheep and you always have the option of getting out of dodge if the need arises.
A few people have said this already, but it's safe to assume that whipping out any weapon (gun, baton, knife, multi-tool, lead pipe, etc.) will immediately escalate any confrontational situation. If I'm confronted with someone who's threatening me with anything but a gun, I'm going to run the f*%k away if possible. If it's not possible to get away or if they've got a gun, I'd rather play my trump card first instead of playing the "I pull a knife, they pull a gun" game.
As always, it's a personal decision.
Buy heroin, it's good! |
|
Brind
location:
Kitchener, ON
Gender: Male
| | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 30 on 10/7/2005 5:32 PM >
| | | | Posted by Logan
Anyway, I know that in NY there is a certain length the blade can be. I dont remember exactly what the length is, for some reason either 5 or 8 is popping into my head.
|
Anything over 4 inches is considered a weapon instead of a tool in NY.
Instagram
"Adventure is worthwhile in itself." -Amelia Earhart |
|
Logan
location:
Ra-Cha-Cha, NY
Gender: Male
We miss you Jerry
| | | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 31 on 10/7/2005 6:52 PM >
| | | | ah, I see. Well, I wouldn't bring my knife with me anyway because it is illegal in new york(auto opening).
Cogito Ergo Sum |
|
Brind
location:
Kitchener, ON
Gender: Male
| | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 32 on 10/7/2005 11:14 PM >
| | | | True, but then again, I usually carry a K-Bar or butterfly knife with me...
Instagram
"Adventure is worthwhile in itself." -Amelia Earhart |
|
Caveman6666
location:
NY
| | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 33 on 10/8/2005 11:16 AM >
| | | | Posted by Brind
Anything over 4 inches is considered a weapon instead of a tool in NY.
|
It varies with every municipality, and in many places is a matter of concealed or unconcealed. I frequently carry an unconcealed Ka-bar. Perfectly legal. Except in NYC. Find out your local restrictions.
Yet another unoriginal generic UE website. GODDAM! |
|
Pravus
location:
Chicago Area
Gender: Male
Now the two key words for tonight - "caution" and "flammable"...
| | | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 34 on 10/8/2005 11:31 AM >
| | | | Posted by Logan
ah, I see. Well, I wouldn't bring my knife with me anyway because it is illegal in new york(auto opening).
|
auto opening are illegal in pretty much all of the states as far as I know (If you mean spring loaded, like a switch blade or stiletto)
Posted by Caveman6666
It varies with every municipality, and in many places is a matter of concealed or unconcealed. I frequently carry an unconcealed Ka-bar. Perfectly legal. Except in NYC. Find out your local restrictions.
|
Thats never made sence to me, a man with a machete on his back isn't breaking the law, but the man with a swiss army knife in his pocket is.. Retarded..
PS Laws on intent just take them as your guilty, at the time of you getting caught they don't have to prove anything with intent.. If you talk back to them they 'could' just charge you to fuck with you and then it will just get dropped in court.. and in all reality they can make intent just to arrest you.. So i'd suggest either not getting caught or not mouthing off to cops (unless they really can have nothing on you, then I encourage it)
[last edit 10/8/2005 11:39 AM by Pravus - edited 1 times]
Live to Serve, Serve to Live.. |
|
Logan
location:
Ra-Cha-Cha, NY
Gender: Male
We miss you Jerry
| | | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 35 on 10/8/2005 4:37 PM >
| | | | Yeah its spring loaded. It is actually a police issued knife. While I was at work I found it near a road =). It is a BenchMade automatic. Retails for about $250. I read on one of the retailer sites that they only sell to you if your a cop or a current member of the armed forces.
I thought about ditching it in a dumpster because I dont want to get caught with it, but I figured that if I ever moved somewhere where it was legal I would enjoy having it.
[last edit 10/8/2005 4:38 PM by Logan - edited 1 times]
Cogito Ergo Sum |
|
ian_evil
location:
Providence, Rhode Island
Gender: Male
we hope you have enjoyed our program.
| | | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 36 on 10/8/2005 5:06 PM >
| | | | I used to carry a knife with me whenever breaking the law in unsafe hours, mostly as a tool, but also for self defense.
Then I seriously considered it, and two points came to mind-
1) I'm the kind of person that can't play fight, and while I often wind up getting my ass kicked in friendly brawls, once the situation gets serious, I wind up losing control and really hurting people. Why the hell would I want to add a knife to that equation?
2) My uncle was in the process of stealing food from a convenience store. (Now, he was young and he wasn't a completely upright guy, but he was Italian, and living in Providence, RI in the 1970s. Also judgement of his character has nothing to do with this story, I'm touchy about that, and the point is that he was committing a very petty crime just like most UErs.) Someone thought he looked suspicious, so the police were called. He was just on his way out of the building when the 5-0 showed up, and he ran. He tried to shove some of the stuff he was carrying (which the police saw him with) into his pocket, and was shot three times in the back. I guess they thought he had a weapon.
relevance to this topic? If you have a weapon, or the police think you have a weapon, especially living in a post-9/11 world (where we weren't supposed to change the way we live, but whatever), the police are getting more and more likely to use you for target practice. Maybe not in forward thinking nations like Canada, but here in the free American states, police officers and even rent-a-cops are trigger happy.
I don't bring anything crazier than a boxcutter with me anywhere, and I keep it deep inside my wallet. I also don't run from law enforcement anymore, unless I know they don't have me in their line of vision.
[center][b]New England Industrial Culture Online[/b]
Stencil/Graffiti, Street Art - Industrial/Exprimental Music - Urban Exploration
"[i]We are the ones you had to dehumanize.[/i]"[/center] |
|
Pravus
location:
Chicago Area
Gender: Male
Now the two key words for tonight - "caution" and "flammable"...
| | | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 37 on 10/9/2005 2:00 AM >
| | | | Yea.. I would also highly recommend not running unless they don't know your there.. also keep your hands as clear to them as possible, never make a grab for anything (wallet, ID, whatever) unless they tell you to and do it slow.. also if they ask you to hand over a knife you have on you DO NOT DO IT if you do you just pulled a knife on a cop, and they can arrest you for that.. If they want a knife tell'em where it is and let them take it off you..
Live to Serve, Serve to Live.. |
|
Logan
location:
Ra-Cha-Cha, NY
Gender: Male
We miss you Jerry
| | | | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 38 on 10/9/2005 5:32 PM >
| | | | I didnt know not to hand it over. That knowledge can really come in handy in the future. Thanks a ton.
Cogito Ergo Sum |
|
swatdaddy33
location:
southern Indiana (vincennes)
Gender: Male
| | Re: To bring or not to bring: weapons
<Reply # 39 on 10/10/2005 1:55 AM >
| | | | Depends on the type of mission, I have been on this forum and put my opionion .I stated that I carried a Glock21 but I didn't take all of the possibilities into account . I never thought of rounds coming back at me .Or rounds bouncing around in side of a ROUND tunnel or a metal tunnel for that matter.I got worked up and just put what I was thinking and I came across as a retard .Plus the report of a hand gun at very close range .What kind of damage it could do to my hearing.
|
|
Powered by AvBoard AvBoard version 1.5 alpha
Page Generated In: 93 ms
|
|
Ethics