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Feztaa
  
location:
Victoria, Canada
Gender: Male
Hide yo kids, hide yo wife
 |  | Re: How to make a Citizen's Arrest.
<Reply # 20 on 10/30/2004 7:24 PM >
|  | | | Posted by MatC
let's just all settle down and -- hey! -- maybe go explore something.
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PFFFT, exploring is for posers! REAL UE'rs just sit here all day and argue on the forums!!!!!111!!1one!!11 
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Chronic
  
Very Noble Donor
location:
Kitchener, ON
Gender: Male
Architecture has only two enemies. Water and stupid men.
| | Re: How to make a Citizen's Arrest.
<Reply # 21 on 10/30/2004 7:50 PM >
| | | | As soon as Mike gets settled in to his office at the hallowed halls of Osgoode, his legal "street creds" will be in place and the bickering can end!
01:14:16] <Chronic> Conrad...ya gotta go....
[01:14:30] <nightbird> yes Mr. Black, life is funnier than a pocket full of stocks! And...Tim has legal friends in Chicago...we'll get thru this!!! |
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'Dukes
Noble Donor
Gender: Male
At least someone llikes me
| |  | Re: How to make a Citizen's Arrest.
<Reply # 22 on 10/31/2004 12:09 AM >
| | | | I think Mike Dig's scenario was if someone tried to arrest you for something "trivial". I.e. tresspass.
In that case if some balloonhead came out of the woods all heated that I was at the "fill in the blank UE location" and tried to tackle me, I, like Mike, would probably beat the living hell out of the guy.
Keep in mind that you've already dismissed the tresspass aspect, and this was supposed to encompass "witnesssed a crime" sort of events. You're supposed to be doing this shit too SK. What are you gonna do tackle yourself?
Mike is dead on ; don't be suprised if the perp fights back.
I got your tour winner right here pussies, at least he'd crash out trying. |
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Indigenous Insurgent
location:
Milwaukee, WI
Gender: Male
Only the Truth is revolutionary
| |  |  | Re: How to make a Citizen's Arrest.
<Reply # 23 on 10/31/2004 8:48 AM >
| | | | This would be so much simpler if we could just tie the crook up in webbing and leave him hanging from a streetlight in front of the police station.
Those who make peaceful change impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. |
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Feztaa
location:
Victoria, Canada
Gender: Male
Hide yo kids, hide yo wife
| | Re: How to make a Citizen's Arrest.
<Reply # 24 on 10/31/2004 9:15 AM >
| | | | Posted by Indigenous Insurgent
This would be so much simpler if we could just tie the crook up in webbing and leave him hanging from a streetlight in front of the police station.
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Who doesn't?
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M-Explorer
location:
Groton, CT
Gender: Male
"Going where our feet takes us!"
| | | | Re: How to make a Citizen's Arrest.
<Reply # 25 on 10/31/2004 11:09 AM >
| | | | Hey, hey, I got an idea, let's insted of trying to arrest someone, let's just lynch him! Hell yea, from now on we all need to be crusing abandoned sites and if we see someone UE'ing there, insted putting them under 'citizen's arrest' we should just lynch him insted. Then he can't run away, later on you can say he tried to fight back and you had to defned yourself. That rope around his neck just magicly appeared there!!! Dumbasses!!!!
I why don't we all just calm down abit. Maybe some people on the board, and I'm talking about more then one person, should take a pin and deflate their ego a bit. Lets stop the pissing contest and the "He should be in jail" or, "if I see him I'll make a citizen's arrest" talk. Why, because it all sound dumb, you all are doing the same thing whether you will admit it or not, and trust me, from an outsiders point of view, you ALL are doing the same thing. If youre going to turn someone into the cops, or narc them out to the DA, then you might as well turn yourself in to.
Nuff said.
Cry havoc and lets slip the dogs of war! |
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Joecat
location:
Thunder Bay, Ontario
Gender: Male
DRAINS
| | Re: How to make a Citizen's Arrest.
<Reply # 26 on 10/31/2004 6:04 PM >
| | | | calm down skippy, this thread wasnt titled "Hey lets go arrest people!" He was just trying to inform people on how a citizen's arrest works here in Ontario. Explaining how a security guard may use it, or how average joe may use it. He just layin down some good information.
"Dane, what the hell is a 'sanitarium?'" "Don't know, why?" "We're in one." |
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Servo
| | Re: How to make a Citizen's Arrest.
<Reply # 27 on 10/31/2004 8:40 PM >
| | | | Yeah guys, this debate isn't really topical and just leads to a lot of argument. If you want to debate whether or not people should do citizen's arrests at all, or any other subjects along those lines, please go start another thread and keep this one just to how citizen's arrests work, local laws regarding their conduct, etc. I'm not playing favorites or trying to stifle discussion; I just want to see this thread stay on course.
To encourage this to happen, I'm moving this thread to the Useful Info section in the hopes that people will post... well, useful info.
[last edit 10/31/2004 11:39 PM by Servo - edited 3 times]
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M-Explorer
location:
Groton, CT
Gender: Male
"Going where our feet takes us!"
| | | | Re: How to make a Citizen's Arrest.
<Reply # 28 on 10/31/2004 10:35 PM >
| | | | Posted by Joecat
calm down skippy,
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Calm down skippy huh? Ok, but here's the thing, while now you say it's all just factual discussion, I spent the better part of an hour or so sloggin through this stuff and various other discussions and sadly you guys did not mean this to be a factual discussion. From an outsiders point of view, it sure as hell looks like you guys are going on the 'attack' against others in this forum.
While some of you actually just wanted to talk about the idea of citizen's arrest, the rest of you, possibly the author of this thread included, wanted to discuss ideas on how to attack others you don't like. While you might not see it that way, sadly that's how it looks to others.
Stop worrying over aressting anyone because we know none of you are going to do it to your 'friends.' Maybe if it was someone outside your clique you might do some harm to them because they aren't part of your group. Sadly you all have taken a good idea for a resource for explorers and perverted it into a place where you can mock and tell other people how important you are and discredit others. I've seen one sided discussions where one party was protected over the other, even though the one who was being protected was breaking as many rules as the one who was being attacked. Once I see you guys start cracking down on your own and show how mature you ALL are, then I'll say this resrouce has grown and become something good.
Sorry Avatar-X, but there's people (A good portion of the people who have joined this forum) who have perverted a good idea.
I can also see why some of the people who had created the idea of Urban Exploration have stepped away from this and other forums.
Cry havoc and lets slip the dogs of war! |
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-MisfitStyle-
  
| | Re: How to make a Citizen's Arrest.
<Reply # 29 on 10/31/2004 11:14 PM >
| | | | Posted by M-Explorer
Calm down skippy huh? Ok, but here's the thing, while now you say it's all just factual discussion, I spent the better part of an hour or so sloggin through this stuff and various other discussions and sadly you guys did not mean this to be a factual discussion. From an outsiders point of view, it sure as hell looks like you guys are going on the 'attack' against others in this forum.
While some of you actually just wanted to talk about the idea of citizen's arrest, the rest of you, possibly the author of this thread included, wanted to discuss ideas on how to attack others you don't like. While you might not see it that way, sadly that's how it looks to others.
Stop worrying over aressting anyone because we know none of you are going to do it to your 'friends.' Maybe if it was someone outside your clique you might do some harm to them because they aren't part of your group. Sadly you all have taken a good idea for a resource for explorers and perverted it into a place where you can mock and tell other people how important you are and discredit others. I've seen one sided discussions where one party was protected over the other, even though the one who was being protected was breaking as many rules as the one who was being attacked. Once I see you guys start cracking down on your own and show how mature you ALL are, then I'll say this resrouce has grown and become something good.
Sorry Avatar-X, but there's people (A good portion of the people who have joined this forum) who have perverted a good idea.
I can also see why some of the people who had created the idea of Urban Exploration have stepped away from this and other forums.
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I have no fucking clue where to even being responding to any of that bullshit.
You can believe anything you want about this thread, but the simple fact of the matter is, the title of the thread wasn't "Here's how to beat on people!" We're here to know our legal rights as explorers in case anybody ever tries to make a citizen's arrest on US, due to the illegal nature of this hobby.
What does any of your other bullshit have to do with this topic? If you've really got a problem with the UE community as a whole, take it to another thread, please.
Finally, I wasn't aware that anyone had "created" the idea of Urban Exploration. It's basically exploring. Somebody just gave it a different name one day.
Again, calm down. Try lightening up a little bit.
"I feel like I just got in a battle of wits with some kid in a helmet I found licking a window."
Need help? Please use the Contact a Mod forum — I'm slow to see PMs. |
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Control
location:
NYC, All day every day.
Because it's expected
| | | Re: How to make a Citizen's Arrest.
<Reply # 30 on 10/31/2004 11:16 PM >
| | | | Posted by M-Explorer
I can also see why some of the people who had created the idea of Urban Exploration have stepped away from this and other forums.
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This is a whole other subject, but I'll tap it anyway:
I know some folks that were exploring decades before anyone ever considered call it 'exploration'. I've always found it unfortunate that some of the younger folks that come along and start sites really seem to believe some folks who started UE sites first really were the ones that started UE. They didn't. I'm not being disrespectful of anyone that might fall into that catagory (some folks say I fit the bill), it's just the way it is. Offhand I know of one old (OLD) guy that explored the NYC subways back in the 1950s. I can think of several people's parents, who are 50, 60 years old, that have told me stories of exploring when they were kids... Some of these folks deserver a lot more respect and credit than they're given, though some, like my old old subway explorer aqaintance, don't much care to step forward and publically stare their stories. I guess people were a lot less egocentric and glory hounding a generation or 2 ago (not that being a glory hound is bad, but...)
Part of the reason I post and stay relatively accessible is because someone has to speak up and defy the myths.
Anyway - back to this citzen's arrest thing...
Lame. Unless it's some violent crime you've just witnessed, stay the hell out of it and mind your own (fucking) business. The legal system is there for a reason: let the professionals sort out who's a crook and who's not. Trying to stop someone you think is a perp might land YOU in jail for assault.
The Zoo York Goon Squad.
If it looks good, Loot it. |
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Servo
| | Re: How to make a Citizen's Arrest.
<Reply # 31 on 11/1/2004 12:00 AM >
| | | | OK, I initially deleted that trio of posts but I'm letting them stay because, as MisfitStyle pointed out, deleting them is probably heavy-handed. But please please, I'm asking nicely, let's take this argument to a new thread.
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-MisfitStyle-
| | Re: How to make a Citizen's Arrest.
<Reply # 32 on 11/1/2004 12:21 AM >
| | | | Posted by Control
Lame. Unless it's some violent crime you've just witnessed, stay the hell out of it and mind your own (fucking) business. The legal system is there for a reason: let the professionals sort out who's a crook and who's not. Trying to stop someone you think is a perp might land YOU in jail for assault.
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I believe that a citizen's arrest is more relevant in situations where the crime isn't violent. It is used, as the article Exkal posted pointed out, more by shopowners for theft and whatnot. That's what I think the law should be used for.
I don't know about you, but I'd rather step in on a simple theft than a violent crime. I think the most important think to keep in mind is to worry about your own safety and the safety of the people around you. If less people will be harmed by simply letting the guy go, then it's probably best to do so.
"I feel like I just got in a battle of wits with some kid in a helmet I found licking a window."
Need help? Please use the Contact a Mod forum — I'm slow to see PMs. |
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Control
location:
NYC, All day every day.
Because it's expected
| | | Re: How to make a Citizen's Arrest.
<Reply # 33 on 11/1/2004 5:41 AM >
| | | | Posted by -MisfitStyle-
I believe that a citizen's arrest is more relevant in situations where the crime isn't violent. It is used, as the article Exkal posted pointed out, more by shopowners for theft and whatnot. That's what I think the law should be used for.
I don't know about you, but I'd rather step in on a simple theft than a violent crime. I think the most important think to keep in mind is to worry about your own safety and the safety of the people around you. If less people will be harmed by simply letting the guy go, then it's probably best to do so.
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I agree complete. I don't argue shop owners right to hang onto someone trying to shoplift. That happens fairly regularly.
There's two situations here really that are making this thread a little hot: one where a crime has happened - something that has been witnessed by real people who determine what should be done. The other situation is of course the BPM/Mike D affair, which has from what I can tell left a lot more people here who'd care to admit it very much suspicious of anyone suggesting that explorers partake in 'citzen's arrests'. That whole affair could have been avoided if people just minded their own business, or given mike a chance to explain his side before calling in the cops in an attempt to make something out of nothing (an ebay auction, please... like that would fly in court!). Instead, there are a lot of people who are now distrustful of their fellow UER's who might decide to play cop and proceed to judge jury and excute someone before they're even given a chance to explain their side of the story. It's that attitude that I think is lame.
As for what to do if citzen arrested: seems strange to me that anyone around here would be citzen arrested. You're on someone's land, they say get off. If you're not stealing anything, what's to worry about? Someone tackles you while leaving some place - big deal - the cops come and see the situation for what it is: maybe you were tresspassing, but that's no reason for the 'citzen' making the 'arrest' to assault you, especially if it's just some dumb abandoned place...
The Zoo York Goon Squad.
If it looks good, Loot it. |
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Servo
| | Re: How to make a Citizen's Arrest.
<Reply # 34 on 11/1/2004 5:57 AM >
| | | | Edit: Since someone deleted BPM's post, I'm gonna unlock this thread. Let's hope it can continue on peacefully.
[last edit 11/1/2004 8:44 PM by Servo - edited 4 times]
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Viper
location:
Vancouver, BC Canada
Gender: Male
Trespassing On!
| | | Re: How to make a Citizen's Arrest.
<Reply # 35 on 11/2/2004 1:25 AM >
|  | | | You could be right Ex about just believing that someone is in fresh pursuit of an officer is grounds for a CA. For some reason I remember from my Crim class 2 years ago needing verbal contact with an officer to CA. Either way it would depend on the circumstances why I would try a CA.
I remember last year driving on a major street and seeing what looked like a car accident, and one huge guy around 250 lbs was sitting on another scruffy looking person with his hands held down and several people looking on as the police were pulling up. I'm guessing the scruffy person stole a car, hit the big guy's car and tried to run, and the big guy caught him, sat on him and CA'ed him.
Earth, the world's most dangerous planet!
"The will to do, the soul to dare." -Sir Walter Scott |
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Indigenous Insurgent
location:
Milwaukee, WI
Gender: Male
Only the Truth is revolutionary
| | | | Re: How to make a Citizen's Arrest.
<Reply # 36 on 11/3/2004 2:27 AM >
| | | | Since it would seem that laws regarding citizen's arrests vary from state to state, I would think that a good way of finding out some facts would be to ask a local security guard.
I'd imagine they'd have to know those laws like the back of their hand in order to avoid rampant lawsuits.
This, of course, is assuming that you don't want to call up a police station.
Those who make peaceful change impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. |
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Dogboy
Gender: Male
| | Re: How to make a Citizen's Arrest.
<Reply # 37 on 11/8/2004 11:28 PM >
| | | | sec. 494 criminal coad of canada
(1)Any one may arrest without warrant
(a) a person whom he finds commiting a indietable offence; or
(b) a person who , on reasonable and probable grounds, he believes
(i) has committed a criminal offence,and
(ii) is escaping from and freshly pursued by persons who have lawful authority to arrest that person.
iv got a lerning disability if that helps?
so get use to it we'r not all english magers. |
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dagr
location:
Mississauga
Gender: Male
| | Re: How to make a Citizen's Arrest.
<Reply # 38 on 11/9/2004 3:47 AM >
| | | | Dude! Spelling!
That's just painful...
~ Dagr
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knkd
location:
Toronto
Gender: Male
| |  | | Re: How to make a Citizen's Arrest.
<Reply # 39 on 1/7/2005 8:48 PM >
| | | | I'm not claiming to be a legal expert, on the other I do have first-hand practical knowledge having assisted a small number of arrests while working for a high-profile security company that shall remain nameless. Allow me to put my CDN$ 0.02 in. While your mileage will vary, and I can not guarantee this information being 100% current and accurate, I do hope that this may help.
Unless you've picked locks / broken windows / are lugging an 18th century chandelier off the property or have done similar things smacking of BNE (break'n'enter) or theft you will NOT be arrested, PROVIDED you feign ignorance (hard to do while wearing ninja shoes, respirator and a katana sword), apologize profusely and leave. Unless you have committed a criminal offense while on property (which trespass isn't) a guard or property owner may not detain you there / prevent you from leaving (any longer than it takes to talk to you and issue a verbal / written warning).
On the other hand if you refuse to leave, that may be grounds for arrest. If you have been (previously) issued a written notice of trespass for that particular site with your name on it (which will frequently be accompanied by having your picture taken) and come back after that within a period specified on your notice of trespass you may be arrested at any time. Cops will pick you up and you will spend a night in jail + get a fine. You will also have a police (but NOT a criminal) record at that point.
All of the above is basically a hassle. But if you really want to get yourself in trouble start a big argument with a guard, escalate it into a fight, get an assault charge / personal injury / receive actual jail time / police beating / cell rape / criminal record, what have ya.
The code, as it was quoted in the above messages, is usually interpreted to mean that in order to perform a citizien's arrest you (YOURSELF) must see: a) CRIMINAL offense taking place or have just taken place; b) an officer of the law giving chase to a suspect... The only exception appears to be for property owners or their agents (in a refusal to leave / repeat offence) situation.
All in all, you'll get your assholes on both sides of it. Ultimately it doesn't pay to be one - play nice.
[last edit 1/7/2005 8:55 PM by knkd - edited 1 times]
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