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Mark
      
Very Noble Donor
location:
South Carolina
Gender: Male
What is a lion, king of the savannah, when hes at the south pole?
 |  | Tunnel Rat's and maping underground.
< on 9/24/2004 12:28 AM >
|  | | | Ok so I have seen a few maps on this site for tunnels etc. However there are a few things missing in this community.
-A logical use of symbols on the maps to define what is where.
-Semi-percise measurements (which may be difficult to impissible)
-Construction info of said tunnels etc
Yes we have pictures, but they only instill a small portion of knowledge. I think everyone can agree that you cant destroy most drain systems. Well you can but most people wont. Graffiti in drains hurts no one, and improves on the sometimes mintionis trips.
Since I have little exsperince in drain's etc I pose these questions to the god of the tunnel.
What kind of symbols would easily define certian features of say a drain system?
How can we measure the tunnels, with somewhat accuracy?
Do compasses work underground?
"If the threat level goes up its probably because of me." "I am looking for a girl who enjoys headbutting beltbuckles" |
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Louie
 
| |  | Re: Tunnel Rat's and maping underground.
<Reply # 1 on 9/24/2004 2:10 AM >
| | | | one thing that i have seen in my many drain adventures is a pipe sticking out of a wall with a large spray painted arrow pointing to it that says CSO!!! meaning dont be near there when its spewing sewage. I think thats a pretty good mark.
[last edit 9/24/2004 2:11 AM by Louie - edited 1 times]
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Inphenity
Gender: Male
| |  | Re: Tunnel Rat's and maping underground.
<Reply # 2 on 9/24/2004 5:17 AM >
| | | | i think a compas would work underground .. the only thing i can think of screwing with it would be if the pipes had rebar in them .. the metal might throw it off
... well yea actually this is a flashlight in my pocket .. but im still happy to see you |
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Freak
location:
Usually Alaska, now MSP.
Gender: Male
Hypocrite
| | | Re: Tunnel Rat's and maping underground.
<Reply # 3 on 9/24/2004 5:21 AM >
| | | | I've done some mapping, although generally I use my own symbols and keep the maps non-public since they're pretty detailed. A lot of times I just overlay tunnels onto existing topo maps or other maps rather than trying to make something from scratch. I'd like to use some high-tech 3D program, but most of these are done in MS-Pain.
Some example:
And some that are actually public on my site:
http://freak.minim...m/downtownmap2.jpg
http://freak.minimanga.com/drainmap.gif (This is an embarrasingly crappy high school MacPaint map from my very first drain  )
Edit: I meant to add that tunnel construction does affect compasses, especially if there's metal around. Re-bar in the concrete and electrical/telco wires can interfere, and actually generate their own magnetic fields in some cases. Natural rock tunnels like mines are somewhat better, although there can be steel rails and metal ore deposits that can screw things up as well. I usually use a combination of dead-reconing, my natural direction sense, and simple sketches to map out a tunnel system. Sometims I find I'm totally off, and sometimes I'm more accurate than "official" maps.
[Admin edit: fixed screen-raping image width problem. -MacG]
[last edit 9/24/2004 7:36 AM by MacGyver - edited 2 times]
Turn off the internet and go play outside.
http://spamusement...hp/comics/view/137 |
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MacGyver
location:
St Paul, Minnesota
Gender: Male
"Someone go find me a paperclip, a D-cell battery, and a cheese grater"
| | Re: Tunnel Rats and mapping underground
<Reply # 4 on 9/24/2004 7:50 AM >
| | | | holy lack-of-a-spellchecker batman!
Anyways, back to the subject at hand...
Symbols almost have to be unique to a map or a mapping system to be effective. If you tried to have unique symbols for every single conceivable tunnel feature, maps would begin to resemble the chinese alphabet. I'm personally fond of dots, circles , and boxes with the appropriate labels and arrows to simply indicate what they represent or describe characteristics.
Distances can be measured several ways. Counting paces is probably the easiest and fastest, and can be surprisingly accurate with practice and experience. Another method is to use lengths of non-stretchy string or cord and leapfrog with a person, measuring off a hundred feet at a time or something. This (as it would seem) is labor intensive and slow, but can be very accurate if need be. If you want to get geeky about things, you could build a rangefinder with two laser pointers. A piece of plywood about three feet long by six inches wide should be plenty to build it on. The tricky part would lie in getting the calibration to stay accurate whilst slogging it through any kind of tunnel, as well as the sheer size of it.
Do compasses work underground? Yes and no. If there's any significant iron content in the ground or rock surrounding you, you're more than likely SOL. If there's any steel (most commonly reinforcing rod in concrete walls or tunnels) nearby, you're also SOL. Compasses do actually work flawlessly in environments such as naked sandstone caverns and tunnels. I have used a hand bearing compass in the past to help map a labyrinth of interconnecting sandstone mine tunnels with impressive accuracy. See the db entry for compass for a bit more info on types of compasses and whatnot.
Like a fiend with his dope / a drunkard his wine / a man will have lust for the lure of the mine
"If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent." |
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Spook
location:
Bristol, TN/Central Florida
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Tunnel Rat's and maping underground.
<Reply # 5 on 9/27/2004 4:42 PM >
|  | | | I am a little suprised not to have seen any mention of utilizing a pedometer (avg. $10) as a reasonable method to record distance. As for direction you could judge that pretty well by marking the entrance face on you map.
“Accept the things to which fate binds you, and love the people with whom fate brings you together, but do so with all your heart. -Marcus Aurelius |
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MacGyver
location:
St Paul, Minnesota
Gender: Male
"Someone go find me a paperclip, a D-cell battery, and a cheese grater"
| | Re: Tunnel Rat's and maping underground.
<Reply # 6 on 9/27/2004 6:13 PM >
| | | | I didn't even think of the classic pedometer. I used to use one in drains, but it wasn't very accurate, as walking in a drain is not like walking on flat ground. I was really only able to get accurate results by clipping it to my belt right in the middle, rather than on one hip. If it was on one side, it would only register a step half of the time due to the way I had to walk in these particular drains.
Pedometers would also give wildly varying results in most of the underground places I visit, as some of the time I am walking on flat, solid ground, some of the time I'm hiking up and sliding back down hills of sand, and sometimes I'm swimming or checking out dead-end side passages.
A pedometer would really only be useful if you wanted to know exactly how many steps you took or if you were walking on a consistent surface without backing up, wandering around, or doing other things, like climbing ladders and crawling through offshoots.
Just my $0.02 worth...
Like a fiend with his dope / a drunkard his wine / a man will have lust for the lure of the mine
"If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent." |
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Umbra
location:
Southern Ontario
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Tunnel Rat's and maping underground.
<Reply # 7 on 9/28/2004 3:54 PM >
| | | | I'm waiting to borrow my friends GPS (Global Positioning System) and plot points at the entrance/exit and any points in between, ie. manholes.
Angels of the Underground
http://www.aotu.ca |
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MacGyver
location:
St Paul, Minnesota
Gender: Male
"Someone go find me a paperclip, a D-cell battery, and a cheese grater"
| | Re: Tunnel Rat's and maping underground.
<Reply # 8 on 9/28/2004 11:38 PM >
| | | | Posted by Umbra-AOTU
I'm waiting to borrow my friends GPS (Global Positioning System) and plot points at the entrance/exit and any points in between, ie. manholes.
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bear in mind that GPS doesn't work worth beans unles it's in open air. My GPS receiver can't get a fix through the sheep metal roof of my car (I have to put it out on the dash under the sloping windshield) and I'd bet money that you won't be able to get a signal through a manhole cover, much less any measurable amount of earth and concrete.
If you can get to gutter boxes or manhole covers with holes in them, you might have a chance, and marking entrances this way is indeed a very useful tool. If you have any interesting findings, do report back.
Like a fiend with his dope / a drunkard his wine / a man will have lust for the lure of the mine
"If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent." |
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Spook
location:
Bristol, TN/Central Florida
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Tunnel Rat's and maping underground.
<Reply # 9 on 9/28/2004 11:39 PM >
| | | | I understand what you're saying MacGyver. Back when I was wandering through drains most of what I found was pretty basic (fairly straight, somewhat level) so I wasn't sure how it would work for someone whos experiences were a little more exciting.
“Accept the things to which fate binds you, and love the people with whom fate brings you together, but do so with all your heart. -Marcus Aurelius |
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MacGyver
location:
St Paul, Minnesota
Gender: Male
"Someone go find me a paperclip, a D-cell battery, and a cheese grater"
| | Re: Tunnel Rat's and maping underground.
<Reply # 10 on 9/29/2004 5:47 AM >
| | | | For the record, most of the places underground I end up mapping are not drains. 
Drains are easy enough to eyeball a map of or include some pace counts if you really want to get nitpicky. I'm talking more about mapping places that end up looking like this: (for scale, this map is more than a mile across)
Compasses and quasi-accurate distance measuring methods are imperative to creating an accurate and useful map in these kinds of conditions.
Like a fiend with his dope / a drunkard his wine / a man will have lust for the lure of the mine
"If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent." |
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Mark
Very Noble Donor
location:
South Carolina
Gender: Male
What is a lion, king of the savannah, when hes at the south pole?
| | Re: Tunnel Rat's and maping underground.
<Reply # 11 on 9/29/2004 7:32 AM >
| | | | That is awsome. Well we found are first major tunnel here. ANd infact maybe a secret that has been hidden in lore for years. We shall see in the next few weeks. I think AbandonedSC, his crew, and InPhenity are going to work something out, then post it here and see what you guys think. I love the map you did MacGyver, but without the pictured I wouldnt know if that was a drain or caves. So I just want a little more data, as your map look super accurate. I'll play around here with ideas, then present the basics and have the pros add remove what they want. Sound good to you guys?
"If the threat level goes up its probably because of me." "I am looking for a girl who enjoys headbutting beltbuckles" |
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Inphenity
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Tunnel Rat's and maping underground.
<Reply # 12 on 9/29/2004 7:48 AM >
| | | | yes yes .. this drain was most bitchin ... and now i have an excuse to spend more money on draining gear =)
... well yea actually this is a flashlight in my pocket .. but im still happy to see you |
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Freak
location:
Usually Alaska, now MSP.
Gender: Male
Hypocrite
| | | Re: Tunnel Rat's and maping underground.
<Reply # 13 on 9/29/2004 11:15 AM >
| | | | The GPS I just got came with a small external antenna on a 20ft cable. It might be possible to attach the antenna to a telescoping pole and pop it through holes in gutterboxes or manhole lids. With my PDA and a good mapping program it would make a nice navigational tool (it would suck if a car ran over my antenna though).
Hmm... if there were any tunnel systems around here with frequent manholes I'd try that, until then I'll use it to map entrances
Turn off the internet and go play outside.
http://spamusement...hp/comics/view/137 |
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Mark
Very Noble Donor
location:
South Carolina
Gender: Male
What is a lion, king of the savannah, when hes at the south pole?
| | Re: Tunnel Rat's and maping underground.
<Reply # 14 on 9/29/2004 5:12 PM >
| | | | i just realized i can do the same thing with my gps
"If the threat level goes up its probably because of me." "I am looking for a girl who enjoys headbutting beltbuckles" |
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Macsbug
Noble Donor
location:
St. Paul, MN
Gender: Male
Safety First!
| | | Re: Tunnel Rat's and maping underground.
<Reply # 15 on 9/30/2004 6:12 AM >
| | | | Posted by Mark
I love the map you did MacGyver, but without the pictured I wouldnt know if that was a drain or caves. So I just want a little more data, as your map look super accurate.
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The map is very nice, with it and a compass, and no experience with a compass... I was able to find my way around fine, which I think is pretty impressive considering how complex of a place it is.
"Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it." |
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