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 WillieMcV
 
Location: Underneath Upstate Ny
Gender: Male
 |  |  | Re: Pennsylvania Photographer Nearly Gets Arrested For Photographing From Bridge
<Reply # 20 on 2/26/2012 1:19 PM >
|  | | | I've had something similar happen for taking pictures on top of publicly owned parking garages. Rochester-the city that invented consumer photography-banned consumer photography from public locations of anything interesting. Sad.
"Take calculated risks. That is quite different from being rash." -George S. Patton
WillieMcV on Flickr: http://www.flickr....otos/65805109@N08/ |
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Keaven
 
Location: 15 miles from the Grassy Knoll
Gender: Male
| |  | Re: Pennsylvania Photographer Nearly Gets Arrested For Photographing From Bridge
<Reply # 21 on 2/26/2012 1:51 PM >
| | | | While this photographer may have been within his legal rights to refuse show his ID, from a tactical standpoint it was not the way I'd recommend handling the situation.
Because, let's be blunt here, he didn't "almost get arrested for taking photographs"; he almost got arrested for pissing off the cops.
We don't like it, but we have to realize that citizens watch too much "news" and have become paranoid in our post-9/11 world. Chances are someone called this in and the officers had to respond. If you are in this situation, you are unlikely to "win" an argument with a cop.
Lots of you aren't going to like it, but here is what I would do:
I'd keep my hands visible as the officer approaches. When he identifies himself, I'd respond "Hi, I'm _________ __________, nice to meet you".
When he asked for my ID, I'd hand it over and ask "What department did you say you are with again, Officer Tobias?".
I'd keep calling him by name. I'd say "Yes, Sir" and "No, Sir" and expect the same from him.
When he asked "What are you doing here?", he might regret asking the question!
"Oh, you are interested in photography! I'm making a time lapse of the traffic. I'll post it on my website, here let me write down the URL for you and tell you all about the photos I take.... I just got this new lens for my camera. Let me tell you all about photography equipment...You want to take up photography as a hobby, I see. Let me tell you how to get started..."
If the officer actually has an interest in photography, I might have make a new friend. And a good one to have at that. If he thinks photography is boring, he will be ready to get out of there ASAP.
[last edit 2/26/2012 2:52 PM by Keaven - edited 1 times]
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Breach
 
Location: Louisville, KY
Gender: Male
| | Re: Pennsylvania Photographer Nearly Gets Arrested For Photographing From Bridge
<Reply # 22 on 2/26/2012 2:08 PM >
| | | | Hmm, kind of a "if you can't beat em with civility, beat them with geekery."
Eschaton has used that. I however hav had no such luck. I guess holding a P&S camera in your hand doesn't count as photography to LEOs
"I set the bar high, it makes it easier to sneak under." -J.D. Jenkins |
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Keaven
Location: 15 miles from the Grassy Knoll
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Pennsylvania Photographer Nearly Gets Arrested For Photographing From Bridge
<Reply # 23 on 2/26/2012 2:51 PM >
| | | | Posted by Breach
Hmm, kind of a "if you can't beat em with civility, beat them with geekery."
Eschaton has used that. I however hav had no such luck. I guess holding a P&S camera in your hand doesn't count as photography to LEOs
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I've had great success with geekery.
If you are using a point n' shoot, perhaps you can't be a photography geek, but maybe you can be an architecture geek, or a local history geek, or a civil engineering geek...
As long as LEOs can see that you aren't a criminal and you can come across as being enthusiastically interested in what you are doing they will either share that interest or be ready to get away from you.
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MrSivalls
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
I'll be a-surfin' in yer blood on Saturday night
| | Re: Pennsylvania Photographer Nearly Gets Arrested For Photographing From Bridge
<Reply # 24 on 2/26/2012 3:46 PM >
| | | | Posted by Trap
Their concern is understandable? What is their understandable concern? That they'll be documented being abusive, harassing citizens, and ignoring laws/denying rights because it's inconvenient or makes them look foolish? Fuck that. They need to be held accountable just like everyone else and I don't give a shit if they don't like it. Also fuck the "Its post 9/11 deal with it" attitude. Like Franklin said, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty."
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That's the kind of attitude that will get you in a jam with the cops. The FBI and NSA are even more fun.
I'm not going get into current history with you, or why it effects their mindset, that should be obvious. The most current lone wolf terrorists have been caught by private citizens reporting suspicious activities.
Not that I agree with some of what's being done, but those cops are just pawns as much as me or you. Nothing personal, just business.
Your security measures were inadequate.
How unfortunate for you. |
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Breach
Location: Louisville, KY
Gender: Male
| | Re: Pennsylvania Photographer Nearly Gets Arrested For Photographing From Bridge
<Reply # 25 on 2/26/2012 3:50 PM >
| | | | Posted by Keaven
I've had great success with geekery.
If you are using a point n' shoot, perhaps you can't be a photography geek, but maybe you can be an architecture geek, or a local history geek, or a civil engineering geek...
As long as LEOs can see that you aren't a criminal and you can come across as being enthusiastically interested in what you are doing they will either share that interest or be ready to get away from you.
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Crap, that means I need SCUBA gear and an underwater camera. My big interest lies in shipwrecks. Problem is, the nearest shipwrecks are the barges that sink in the Ohio. Most get cleared out because they are considered navigational hazards, but I'm sure there might be a few left on the bottom if they are deep enough.
"I set the bar high, it makes it easier to sneak under." -J.D. Jenkins |
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Keaven
Location: 15 miles from the Grassy Knoll
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Pennsylvania Photographer Nearly Gets Arrested For Photographing From Bridge
<Reply # 26 on 2/26/2012 4:20 PM >
| | | | Posted by MrSivalls
... The most current lone wolf terrorists have been caught by private citizens reporting suspicious activities...
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Private citizens who dialed 911 and said something like "there is a guy on a bridge with something on a tripod..."
Would you want the cops to blow off the call? Or would you expect them to ask "What are you doing?" and "Why?'?
I just don't think my response would have been "because I can".
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TRAINS
    
Foaming at the Mouth
Location: Canada
Gender: Male
Ask me about my coupling equipment!
| | Re: Pennsylvania Photographer Nearly Gets Arrested For Photographing From Bridge
<Reply # 27 on 2/26/2012 5:20 PM >
| | | | Have to admit, I've never understood the defensive stance when it comes to authority questioning a photographer. Tell them what you're doing in terms that anyone could understand, be polite, respectful, and they'll be on their way.
Clearly the police in this case are ignorant jackasses but the photographer was not acting much better. :/
Baby like the way I wake her up, 'Cause I'm a gangsta, I grab her by the butt, Pull her to my side, I'm in deep, Woke that ass up just to put her to sleep |
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MrSivalls
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
I'll be a-surfin' in yer blood on Saturday night
| | Re: Pennsylvania Photographer Nearly Gets Arrested For Photographing From Bridge
<Reply # 28 on 2/27/2012 12:30 AM >
| | | | Posted by Keaven
Private citizens who dialed 911 and said something like "there is a guy on a bridge with something on a tripod..."
Would you want the cops to blow off the call? Or would you expect them to ask "What are you doing?" and "Why?'?
I just don't think my response would have been "because I can".
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These guys are drama Queens. Spoiled brats.
They posted the cop's pictures, do they think that strengthens their weak shit any?
No arrest, so they don't have anything to cry about, and all the ACLU has got is the bad case of the chronic runs.
Your security measures were inadequate.
How unfortunate for you. |
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bigXmack
Location: illinois
Gender: Male
| | Re: Pennsylvania Photographer Nearly Gets Arrested For Photographing From Bridge
<Reply # 29 on 2/27/2012 2:51 AM >
| | | | i really dont know the law very well in his state but i see where he is coming from. we have people overseas fighting for our rights and i would never give up the rights i have just because it would be more convenient and save time. if your not required to do something for a cop why do it? for example a cop tried to search my car one time because he was convinced i had weed in the car. i would not give consent to him so he tried to hardass me and said he was going to bring dogs in to sniff the car. i told him to do it and that i wont give up my rights. he went back to his car as 20 minutes later i was free to go. just my opinion
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Keaven
Location: 15 miles from the Grassy Knoll
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Pennsylvania Photographer Nearly Gets Arrested For Photographing From Bridge
<Reply # 30 on 2/27/2012 3:30 AM >
| | | | Posted by MrSivalls
These guys are drama Queens. Spoiled brats.
They posted the cop's pictures, do they think that strengthens their weak shit any?
No arrest, so they don't have anything to cry about, and all the ACLU has got is the bad case of the chronic runs.
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I gotta come to the ACLU's defense here. The ACLU didn't bring up this non-issue, the guy you call a "spoiled brat" did. He kept bringing up the ACLU.
Posted by bigXmack
i really dont know the law very well in his state but i see where he is coming from. we have people overseas fighting for our rights and i would never give up the rights i have just because it would be more convenient and save time. if your not required to do something for a cop why do it? for example a cop tried to search my car one time because he was convinced i had weed in the car. i would not give consent to him so he tried to hardass me and said he was going to bring dogs in to sniff the car. i told him to do it and that i wont give up my rights. he went back to his car as 20 minutes later i was free to go. just my opinion
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Your situation was much different. The cop accused you of having weed. He didn't accuse this guy of anything. He only asked what the guy was doing and why.
I'd have to characterize myself as pro-cop and pro-ACLU in most cases. I'm not in favor of giving up our rights to make things more convenient for the cops but I'm not in favor of going out of my way to give cops a hard time either.
Lets say you are approached by a private citizen who asks "Why are you taking photos?". I doubt you are you going to say "because I can".
Lets imagine it is a cute girl who asks you that questions. I'll bet you are going to be friendly, polite and willing to explain. Why not be friendly and polite to the cop too? It is an opportunity to let him get to know you. If you encounter that officer again, would you rather he know you as "the friendly photographer" or as "Mr. Because I Can"?
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bigXmack
Location: illinois
Gender: Male
| | Re: Pennsylvania Photographer Nearly Gets Arrested For Photographing From Bridge
<Reply # 31 on 2/27/2012 3:43 AM >
| | | | Posted by Keaven
I gotta come to the ACLU's defense here. The ACLU didn't bring up this non-issue, the guy you call a "spoiled brat" did. He kept bringing up the ACLU.
Your situation was much different. The cop accused you of having weed. He didn't accuse this guy of anything. He only asked what the guy was doing and why.
I'd have to characterize myself as pro-cop and pro-ACLU in most cases. I'm not in favor of giving up our rights to make things more convenient for the cops but I'm not in favor of going out of my way to give cops a hard time either.
Lets say you are approached by a private citizen who asks "Why are you taking photos?". I doubt you are you going to say "because I can".
Lets imagine it is a cute girl who asks you that questions. I'll bet you are going to be friendly, polite and willing to explain. Why not be friendly and polite to the cop too? It is an opportunity to let him get to know you. If you encounter that officer again, would you rather he know you as "the friendly photographer" or as "Mr. Because I Can"?
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i understand our situations are hardly related in any way i was just pointing out that i would refuse to show ID because i have no reason to. i treat police like i treat everyone else. if they are polite so am i and if they are not im more passive-aggressive if that makes sense
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Keaven
Location: 15 miles from the Grassy Knoll
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Pennsylvania Photographer Nearly Gets Arrested For Photographing From Bridge
<Reply # 32 on 2/27/2012 4:39 AM >
| | | | Posted by bigXmack
i understand our situations are hardly related in any way i was just pointing out that i would refuse to show ID because i have no reason to. i treat police like i treat everyone else. if they are polite so am i and if they are not im more passive-aggressive if that makes sense
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Yeah, the "showing ID issue"...my philosophy is harder to articulate here. (If you're driving, it is a moot point. You have to show your DL.)
Uniformed cop, with badge and name tag...it just seems to me that he has identified himself and I don't have a problem doing the same. Legally you may not have to, but it seems fair to me and is certainly the best tactic. He knows right away I'm not Billy Badass who has a dozen warrants. I just can't see any advantage to asserting my legal rights here and can see a lot of potential problems by doing so. I can understand if your opinion differs.
I cut cops a lot of slack if they are all business and even if they come across as a bit rude at first. I don't have a problem with them wanting to establish control of the situation and asserting their authority. Yep, even if they hardass me a bit. At first. Once they have had a minute to access the situation and to figure out I'm not Billy Badass, I expect more politeness and professionalism. I usually receive it. Often even friendliness and their thanks.
Like that one officer who drew down on me and ordered me to the ground for driving the stolen car. Once she found out that my stolen car had been recovered and that I was the owner, she was super nice.
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bigXmack
Location: illinois
Gender: Male
| | Re: Pennsylvania Photographer Nearly Gets Arrested For Photographing From Bridge
<Reply # 33 on 2/27/2012 6:11 AM >
| | | | Posted by Keaven
Yeah, the "showing ID issue"...my philosophy is harder to articulate here. (If you're driving, it is a moot point. You have to show your DL.)
Uniformed cop, with badge and name tag...it just seems to me that he has identified himself and I don't have a problem doing the same. Legally you may not have to, but it seems fair to me and is certainly the best tactic. He knows right away I'm not Billy Badass who has a dozen warrants. I just can't see any advantage to asserting my legal rights here and can see a lot of potential problems by doing so. I can understand if your opinion differs.
I cut cops a lot of slack if they are all business and even if they come across as a bit rude at first. I don't have a problem with them wanting to establish control of the situation and asserting their authority. Yep, even if they hardass me a bit. At first. Once they have had a minute to access the situation and to figure out I'm not Billy Badass, I expect more politeness and professionalism. I usually receive it. Often even friendliness and their thanks.
Like that one officer who drew down on me and ordered me to the ground for driving the stolen car. Once she found out that my stolen car had been recovered and that I was the owner, she was super nice.
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wow that must of been wild! but yeah my stance probably comes from the fact that i live in a town where the cops WIll bust you for J walking. and give you a ticket for not mowing your lawn. (yes it happens)
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barefootpoetry
Location: PA
Gender: Female
| | | Re: Pennsylvania Photographer Nearly Gets Arrested For Photographing From Bridge
<Reply # 34 on 2/27/2012 2:23 PM >
| | | | Posted by Keaven
While this photographer may have been within his legal rights to refuse show his ID, from a tactical standpoint it was not the way I'd recommend handling the situation.
Because, let's be blunt here, he didn't "almost get arrested for taking photographs"; he almost got arrested for pissing off the cops.
We don't like it, but we have to realize that citizens watch too much "news" and have become paranoid in our post-9/11 world. Chances are someone called this in and the officers had to respond. If you are in this situation, you are unlikely to "win" an argument with a cop.
Lots of you aren't going to like it, but here is what I would do:
I'd keep my hands visible as the officer approaches. When he identifies himself, I'd respond "Hi, I'm _________ __________, nice to meet you".
When he asked for my ID, I'd hand it over and ask "What department did you say you are with again, Officer Tobias?".
I'd keep calling him by name. I'd say "Yes, Sir" and "No, Sir" and expect the same from him.
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Brilliant advice, honestly. I harbor a general disdain for most authority figures, but I always smother that with obsequiousness when I am approached by one. As people whose pasttime often involves skirting the law, cops may be our nemeses, but they're just doing their job, and the politer you are, the faster they are likely to go on their merry way to pester the next troublemaker. You can't expect them not to be dicks to you when you can't extend the same courtesy to them.
She who hesitates, sees bulldozers. |
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OwlsFlight
Location: Ehn Jay
One foot in the grave, the other on a banana peel
| | | Re: Pennsylvania Photographer Nearly Gets Arrested For Photographing From Bridge
<Reply # 35 on 2/27/2012 4:04 PM >
| | | | Posted by Keaven
While this photographer may have been within his legal rights to refuse show his ID, from a tactical standpoint it was not the way I'd recommend handling the situation.
Because, let's be blunt here, he didn't "almost get arrested for taking photographs"; he almost got arrested for pissing off the cops.
We don't like it, but we have to realize that citizens watch too much "news" and have become paranoid in our post-9/11 world. Chances are someone called this in and the officers had to respond. If you are in this situation, you are unlikely to "win" an argument with a cop.
Lots of you aren't going to like it, but here is what I would do:
I'd keep my hands visible as the officer approaches. When he identifies himself, I'd respond "Hi, I'm _________ __________, nice to meet you".
When he asked for my ID, I'd hand it over and ask "What department did you say you are with again, Officer Tobias?".
I'd keep calling him by name. I'd say "Yes, Sir" and "No, Sir" and expect the same from him.
When he asked "What are you doing here?", he might regret asking the question!
"Oh, you are interested in photography! I'm making a time lapse of the traffic. I'll post it on my website, here let me write down the URL for you and tell you all about the photos I take.... I just got this new lens for my camera. Let me tell you all about photography equipment...You want to take up photography as a hobby, I see. Let me tell you how to get started..."
If the officer actually has an interest in photography, I might have make a new friend. And a good one to have at that. If he thinks photography is boring, he will be ready to get out of there ASAP.
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+1.
And if you don't want to hand over your ID, then don't do shit where your likely to be asked for it.
Exploring the distance between points A & B. |
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Trap
Location: Dayton, Ohio
Gender: Male
Son, I am disappoint
| | Re: Pennsylvania Photographer Nearly Gets Arrested For Photographing From Bridge
<Reply # 36 on 2/28/2012 2:35 AM >
| | | | Posted by OwlsFlight
And if you don't want to hand over your ID, then don't do shit where your likely to be asked for it.
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Like minding your own business? Taking a few photographs? Walking down the street? NOT breaking the law? No. If I'm not doing anything wrong I expect to not be harassed for it.
Posted by Keaven
Lets say you are approached by a private citizen who asks "Why are you taking photos?". I doubt you are you going to say "because I can".
Lets imagine it is a cute girl who asks you that questions. I'll bet you are going to be friendly, polite and willing to explain. Why not be friendly and polite to the cop too? It is an opportunity to let him get to know you. If you encounter that officer again, would you rather he know you as "the friendly photographer" or as "Mr. Because I Can"?
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Depends, Is this person coming up to me being confrontational or threatening like LEOs do? Then yes, I'll be Mr. "Because I can." And probably give them a nice round "Fuck off." Does that cute girl have the capacity to assault me because she doesn't like me and then chalk it up to a "hunch" or "probable cause" for some nothing reason? Does she have pepper spray, and a taser that she would be willing to use just because she doesn't like my attitude? If the cops roll up and are professional then I have no problems. If they're going to try to power trip or hassle me I'm going to make the situation as difficult and uncomfortable as possible without getting my ass handed to me.
Posted by Send4Help:
ITS EIGHT FUCKING THIRTY!!
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bigXmack
Location: illinois
Gender: Male
| | Re: Pennsylvania Photographer Nearly Gets Arrested For Photographing From Bridge
<Reply # 37 on 2/28/2012 4:35 AM >
| | | | +1 to that
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Buffalonian
Location: Buffalo, NY
| | Re: Pennsylvania Photographer Nearly Gets Arrested For Photographing From Bridge
<Reply # 38 on 3/4/2012 6:59 PM >
| | | |
Look, not to be the anti-Christ on this argument, but I've struggled with the SAME exact problem more than one time. Naturally, I just show some examples of my work show a little ID, they generally move on (99/100 times). Note, that may have been the 1/100 time. However, coming from a security background myself and the idea that if a cop DOESN'T come to you and asks you what you are doing and something DOES happen - he failed to do his/her job. The threat here is obvious. The reality of the situation is not. The investigation of the officer is merely to protect and serve. Does a cop occasionally abuse power and is it within your right to deny identification under the law - absolutely. But don't be a dick about it.
People forget your best strategy is to be calm as possible, show a little common sense, and lastly be rational.
I know the community as a whole gets slammed and there is a certain component - and let's face it - is illegal. Its trespass. Period.
But when you are confronted like this dude from PA, just use some common sense. Again, the idea here on the "whole" .. not the exception .. is that security - military, federal agents, local enforcement, whatever are simply trying to protect the public. There are PLENTY of good people doing the right thing day in and day out for the both Canada and the US.
I'm not trying to start a debate, but rather point out ... out of the millions of people serving, there are a few bad eggs in any demographic. However, use some common sense and generally (minus the exception) you'll actually be surprised on how cool these people are once you flash a little sample and show them ... its about the art work and not about the security of it.
I cream, you cream, we all cream for .. white spooge. |
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Samurai
 
Vehicular Lord Rick
Location: northeastern New York
No matter where you go, there you are...
| | Re: Pennsylvania Photographer Nearly Gets Arrested For Photographing From Bridge
<Reply # 39 on 3/4/2012 7:47 PM >
| | | | Posted by j814wong
In order to protect citizens from possible misconduct by cops, its should be a legal right and a law for a citizen to record encounters with cops as long as these records are not manipulated to create false records such as by cutting certain things out of a recorded audio.
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under federal laws and guidelines, it is legal to film law enforcement discharging their duties. Unfortunately, draconian state laws put in place to harass and intimidate citizens are undercutting that. People begin to live in fear. This is what the police want. They want a cowed and fearful populace so that they may enforce with impunity.
the use of video recording is the only weapon a citizen has against poor police performance.
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