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UER Forum > Archived UE Photo Critiques > HALP? (Talk me down from buying a new camera?) (Viewed 1191 times)
BLKMSK 


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HALP? (Talk me down from buying a new camera?)
< on 11/25/2011 6:47 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I've been shooting with a Canon G9 since it came out, and I'm in love with the G-Series cameras. However, my biggest complaint about this cameras is the noise, and occasional digital grain and lack of detail. There was a chorus of complaints Canon's choice to try squeeze 12 megapixel photos out of a 1/1.7" CCD sensor, and that this results in a lot of digital noise. Eventually, Canon reduced the MP count on the G11 to only 10MP on the same sensor, which presumably resulted in an improvement in quality as they've stuck with this choice on their G12.

The point of this thread is not so much a "What camera should I buy?" question, but I'm asking if people who are familiar with the discrepancies between CCD vs. CMOS sensors can let me know if I would see a noticeable improvement in photo quality if I were to buy a Canon 60D? Or, is my issue photo technique? If it's the later, is there any advice you would give me on getting better quality photos?

My kit currently contains:
Canon Powershot G9
- Polaroid .43x Wide-Angle
- Bower .16x Fisheye
MacBook Pro
- Pohotshop CS4
- Aperture 3
- Photomatix HDR

Here are five recent shots:


The first two are tonemapped, and my concerns are about the clarity, processing technique and dynamic range.



Stackhouse 1 - ISO80, 7.4mm, f/4 at 1/500, Photomatix Tonemapped

I'm starting off with a photo I'm more happy with than not. What do you think of this photo? What's it missing? Here it is full sized: Stackhouse 001, and here's a 100% crop showing detail. Also, this photo was Auto-Exposure bracketed (-0.67ev, +/-1.33ev), resulting in these three originals:

255878.jpg (44 kb, 450x600)
click to view


255879.jpg (33 kb, 450x600)
click to view


255880.jpg (54 kb, 450x600)
click to view








Stackhouse 2 - ISO80, 7.4mm, f/2.8 at 1/40, Photomatix Tonemapped

I think I went a little nuts with the sharpness on this one. How could this photo be better? Here's full size, detail at 100% and the bracketed (-0.33ev, +/-1.33ev) originals:

255881.jpg (76 kb, 450x600)
click to view


255882.jpg (60 kb, 450x600)
click to view


255883.jpg (85 kb, 450x600)
click to view








Laurel Hill 1 - ISO200, 7.4mm, f/2.8 at 1/15, Photomatix Tonemapped

This photo is also tonemapped, but my issue is with the perspective. I feel like it looks centered right up until the end of the hallway. I've corrected the edges (gently) using photoshop, but is there something else I should try? I don't have a level on my cheap-o tripod, but I always shoot with Canon's built in rule of thirds guides turned on in the live-view display. Here is a 100% crop with the center lines highlighted. Is this an issue with my tripod, camera or me? Here it is full sized.

(Note- I've heard that Canon has introduced a built in accelerometer level in the 60D's live view display. That sounds awesome.)






Special Steel 1 - ISO80, 7.4mm, f/2.8 at 0.3s

How is the detail in this photo? I feel like it's a little grainy. Would a ASP-C CMOS sensor improve those pocked, grainy edges? I feel like these are the result of the G9 guessing with the CCD sensor. The photo is still noisy despite being shot at ISO80, which is my lowest setting. Here is a 100% crop, and the original photo. Did I overprocess? How do I achieve a similar looking (ie: dark, sharp edges) result without killing detail?






Laurel Hill 2 - ISO100, 7.4mm, f/2.8 at 1/10

This macro attempt was shot without a tripod. Have a look at the 100% crop, or the original shot at ISO100, which is the lowest I could manage. It's grainy, the edges aren't sharp and I feel like there's a lot of digital color noise. Is this my sensor again, or is there something in my shooting technique that I could improve?




So, what could be better about these photos? What can I improve about my shooting technique or post-processing to make them look sharper or have better dynamic range? Am I pushing my camera's sensor to its limit in these low-light settings? Would a 60D help me get better images, or is my problem technique? Should I get this new camera, or do I still have room to grow my shooting skill with the G9?

If you have any questions about my methods, please ask. Otherwise, critique away...

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BaRTiMuS 


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Re: HALP? (Talk me down from buying a new camera?)
<Reply # 1 on 11/25/2011 7:44 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
You can't really compare sharpness to noise. Sometimes I'll crank up the ISO on my DSLR a bit to avoid shooting wide open and loosing sharpness. It's a fine balance and it's different for every camera. If you are shooting with a 3.5-5.6 aperature lens, it will always be sharper stopped down to F8-F11.

Sharpness:

Photos will almost always be softer around the edges, even when using a $2000 lens. Thats just a limitation of the glass. Prime lenses are better, but not flawless.

I find it difficult to judge sharpness in any of your tonemapped images because you are stacking 3 or more photos together, you can't guarantee that they are 100% perfectly lined up. The smallest difference can cause lines to seem just a tad softer.

Looking at the non tonemapped images, I would blame the sharpness on the glass, I notice it's got some chromatic abheration issues as well.

Noise:

Laurel Hill 1: I can clearly see noise on the doorway, and at ISO 200, you wouldn't really see any on a camera with a larger sensor.


Overall, I think these images are pretty impressive from such a small camera. Your images are far better than a lot of people with larger, bulkier DSLR's. If you are this picky about your images, you will never be happy. You can get a 50 or 60D and maybe $1000 worth of glass, and you'll start comparing your images to ones shot with a 7D or a 5D II and L glass. I am just as picky as you, now I carry around 20lbs of camera gear. The only benefit in my situation is that now, I can only blame myself for the sharpness and quality of my photos, not my gear.

The only suggestion I have is to shoot at the lowest ISO possible, use a tripod and step down a bit, if your lens opens up to 2.8, try to always shoot at 5.6.

If you're already using a tripod, shooting at the lowest ISO and selecting optimal aperatures for the lenses you have. All I can say is, you need new glass or a new camera But, judging on how picky you are about these already amazing images, I don't think you're going to be satisfied with a 50 or 60D. You'll be happy for a while, but then start picking apart the images at 100% again 6months to a year down the road.
[last edit 11/25/2011 7:54 PM by BaRTiMuS - edited 2 times]

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Adv.Pack 


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Re: HALP? (Talk me down from buying a new camera?)
<Reply # 2 on 11/25/2011 7:48 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
First DON'T shoot at 2.8 for these shots. You have a tripod. You should be shooting more like f/11. I don't know how good the lens for that camera is but I know it will be sharper at 11. A bigger sensor like in the 60d would give you less noise for sure. It would also open you up to canon's whole EF line of lenses which could potentially be FAR better than the one on the G11.


You are shooting in RAW correct? The RAW converter in photoshop has really easy and relatively effective noise reduction and sharpening.




Also, this style of photography is more about composition and lighting than quality perfection. So unless you are planning to go into commercial or portrait work, I wouldn't waste the money. ... or at least I would save $500 and get a new rebel.
[last edit 11/25/2011 7:56 PM by Adv.Pack - edited 1 times]

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BLKMSK 


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Re: HALP? (Talk me down from buying a new camera?)
<Reply # 3 on 11/25/2011 8:05 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
The built in Canon G9 lens is labeled 1:2.8-4.8 (with an aperture range of 2.8-8.0) and I'm stuck with it. The G9 uses an 58mm adapter kit to attach these Polaroid and Bower lenses. They're just screw on cheapies. I couldn't remember at the time if I had used either of them for these shots, so I just included them on the list. (One of my biggest complaints though is that I get barrel distortion in both instead of that sexy tilt that a real wide angle would get.)

I'm going out to shoot again now. I'll try shooting at different f-stops and seeing what happens to the clarity. I realize now that I've been advised to dial the number up before, but I'm still stuck in the Aperture v. Exposure dichotomy.

Thanks for the input.
[last edit 11/25/2011 8:07 PM by BLKMSK - edited 2 times]

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BLKMSK 


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Re: HALP? (Talk me down from buying a new camera?)
<Reply # 4 on 11/26/2011 4:30 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by BaRTiMuS
I find it difficult to judge sharpness in any of your tonemapped images because you are stacking 3 or more photos together, you can't guarantee that they are 100% perfectly lined up. The smallest difference can cause lines to seem just a tad softer.


Here's an image tonemapped from four frames. I didn't include it because it was backlit, and my filter was filthy when I shot it, (which is the thing that's obviously wrong with it,) but I felt like this came out pretty sharp for an HDR:

"Techno-Pop"
100% crop
I'm using a QSX tripod that I might have paid a whopping $12 for when it was new, maybe in 2005. It drops (tilts) my camera a lot, but sometimes it gets it right.

Posted by BaRTiMuS
Overall, I think these images are pretty impressive from such a small camera. Your images are far better than a lot of people with larger, bulkier DSLR's. If you are this picky about your images, you will never be happy.

I appreciate the compliment, but that's the same thing my girlfriend said.

Posted by BaRTiMuS
The only suggestion I have is to shoot at the lowest ISO possible, use a tripod and step down a bit, if your lens opens up to 2.8, try to always shoot at 5.6.


Thank you for the input, and I'm going to try shooting at a smaller aperture and seeing what I get. But, it sounds like you're reenforcing my belief that I'd get more out of a larger sensor, right? And maybe some lenses that are constructed properly instead of these $40 B&H giveaways.

This was really helpful. Thanks!

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BLKMSK 


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Re: HALP? (Talk me down from buying a new camera?)
<Reply # 5 on 11/26/2011 4:47 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by Adv.Pack
First DON'T shoot at 2.8 for these shots. You have a tripod. You should be shooting more like f/11.

The camera aperture dials up to f8.0, but in a lot of low-light situations, I find myself maxed out at 15" exposures when I'm shooting at ISO80, which is kind of a must when the sensor is so noisy.

Posted by Adv.Pack
I don't know how good the lens for that camera is but I know it will be sharper at 11. A bigger sensor like in the 60d would give you less noise for sure. It would also open you up to canon's whole EF line of lenses which could potentially be FAR better than the one on the G11.


I am excited about using "real" lenses. There is mild to moderate barrel distortion and chromatic aberrations in most things I shoot. (Ex: All the originals of these five images.) My hope is that a 60D with even the standard EF-S 18-135mm Lens would make this the exception rather than the norm.

Posted by Adv.Pack
You are shooting in RAW correct? The RAW converter in photoshop has really easy and relatively effective noise reduction and sharpening.


I'm going to have to try this. Honestly, I've been using Aperture so long, I would need to track this down in Photoshop. I use the Aperture RAW processor now, which is good but not great. I use PS for lens correction and "special effects" edits.

Posted by Adv.Pack
Also, this style of photography is more about composition and lighting than quality perfection. So unless you are planning to go into commercial or portrait work, I wouldn't waste the money. ... or at least I would save $500 and get a new rebel.


Any tips on composition, subject, frame or technique for these photos?
Also, the Rebel T3i has the same hardware and sensor as the 60D, and is only $200 cheaper. (Both take SD cards, and if I needed to buy all new CompactFlash cards for the 60D, that would have been a dealbreaker.) I think I'd rather buy something weather sealed, with the more full featured software (and accelerometer level) and go with the 60D.




I took some night shots of Providence tonight at different aperture and ISO combinations to test. I'm going to see if this improves the clarity of the photos.

Does anyone else have any advice or criticism on composition, detail, dynamic range, clarity & sharpness, or digital noise? Other than aperture setting, is there anything I could do to get better photos out of the CCD sensor in the G9? Or should I be looking to take the step up to DSLR and try a CMOS sensor?

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BaRTiMuS 


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Re: HALP? (Talk me down from buying a new camera?)
<Reply # 6 on 11/26/2011 7:08 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by BLKMSK

Thank you for the input, and I'm going to try shooting at a smaller aperture and seeing what I get. But, it sounds like you're reenforcing my belief that I'd get more out of a larger sensor, right? And maybe some lenses that are constructed properly instead of these $40 B&H giveaways.




Yes, I am reinforcing that I suppose. I don't think you will notice any difference in dynamic range stepping up to a 60D. The difference is fairly marginal (I compared the two on DxOMark). You will however notice a huge improvement in the noise department. Stepping up to a 60D will also open up the possibilities in terms of lens selection, lens quality, and more manual control over how you expose the photo.

Judging from what you are saying, I guess I can't really find any reason (besides the obvious $$$) to talk you out of it. A lot of people complain about their gear, but they take some really shitty photos. My usual response to those people is to stick with what they have until they've taken their camera to its absolute limit. You're probably the first person I would actually suggest the opposite to. You seem to enjoy taking photos, you have a good eye, and you really are starting to be limited by your camera. If this is something you want to commit to, the size, the weight, and the money, go for it. As for 60D, T3i, etc. I'm sure you'll pick the right body for you. I agree with having something weather sealed, but I also agree with the fact that lens quality is more important than the camera body.

Just remember, it's a slippery slope. While your photos will be sharper and cleaner over all, you'll be critiquing them and pulling them apart all the same.

Like you, I'm pretty picky about sharpness as well. If you do decide to upgrade here are a few sites to help you pick.

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php
(good for sensor comparisons)
http://www.lenstip.com/ (good for lens comparisons)
http://www.photoprice.ca/ (good for price comparisons, canadian, but includes american stores)

[last edit 11/26/2011 7:17 AM by BaRTiMuS - edited 2 times]

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Re: HALP? (Talk me down from buying a new camera?)
<Reply # 7 on 11/26/2011 7:23 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I dunno, if I didn't already have a lot invested in Canon, I'd be looking at the Sony NEX because you can use pretty much every lens ever made with the NEX. http://en.wikipedi...nge_focal_distance


If you need Autofocus and want top glass from the original manufacturer invest in Canon.

If you want waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more flexibility and autofocus is irrelevant (other than with third party lenses) go for an alpha nex 5.


because this is fucking sexy:
http://sonyalphane...2mm-ultrawide.html

but leica m lenses can't work with canon cameras.


Let me tell you a little secret, my LX3 focuses MUCH faster on anything under 20 feet away than canon USM lenses do on my EOS-3, Rebel, or 7D. I keep the LX3 in my bag at school for taking notes on the board and other simple things. It's much more convenient as a go to camera than a DSLR.

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Re: HALP? (Talk me down from buying a new camera?)
<Reply # 8 on 11/26/2011 8:46 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I would also recommend if you haven't already to shop your questions around on a dedicated photography forum such as any one of these:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/

no offense to the very knowledgable folks here but I'm not sure the photography forum on an urban exploration site is the best place for the answers you seek.
not that the input so far hasnt been great but I think you'd do yourself a disservice not to hear what others on a photography specific site have to say also.
just my 2 cents.

also, I dont personally believe you can compare a G series to a dSLR.
2 completely different cameras aimed at two completely different markets.
my thoughts after reading your posts is a dSLR is much more suited to your needs. you're reaching the point in your evolution as a photographer where its time to move on from a point and shoot. you've simply reached its limit both in capability and your own skill level.
again, just my 2 cents

I own and use a G10,40D,5D and 5D MkII

you WILL see a noticeable difference in image quality going from a G series to a dSLR. its simply indisputable. apples - oranges.

also as Bartimus has touched on and I'm sure you're already aware, noise is a function of the camera body (ie sensor), sharpness is a function of the lens.
larger sensors are always going to manage noise better than smaller ones with the added bonus of lens flexibility.

furthermore, the saying "you get what you pay for" has never rang more true than with respect to photography equipment. $40 B&H giveaway lenses are going to produce $40 giveaway images while $1500 pro lenses are going to produce images so sharp and sexy that you'll feel like you're living dangerously and doing something you're not supposed to be.

as far as getting better images outta your current G series, I think you've got a good grasp skill wise and you're already doing everything you should be.
you're up against the limitations of a point and shoot

and compact flash cards a deal breaker? memory is cheap. you dont need huge gig expensive 90mb/s CF cards.(you aren't shooting sports at 10 frames a second) you can get name brand 4 gig cards from B&H for 10 bucks, 8gig cards for less than $20

again though, shop your questions to some dedicated photo sites before parting with your cash.


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Re: HALP? (Talk me down from buying a new camera?)
<Reply # 9 on 1/28/2012 7:56 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Stackhouse 2 and Laurel Hill 1 are what HDR should be, IMHO. I'm in what they call "HDR gap" right now myself.

I found out that there're two main HDR trends: the "realistic" school that would like HDR to mimic the human eye's dynamic range without the application of the HDR being noticeable, and the "artistic" school that expects everything a bit overprocessed and more surrealist.
I personally tend to the second one. Just because the photo is NOT the reality, and therefore I'm allowed to play with my own photographic alternate realities the way I see fit.
To each their own, I guess - but whatever your feeling is, keep in mind there is no "correct" or "absolute" HDR. It's just what "yours" is. It grows into a style eventually. Mine, as I said, is the non-reality of reality, something that my cameras and my PS can see, while the human eye can't. And I don't care that much about the "overprocessed" label, as long as my work sells.

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Re: HALP? (Talk me down from buying a new camera?)
<Reply # 10 on 3/2/2013 10:24 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
i to tend to go for the crayola look i like the different takes on subjects from different people..but hat just my choice..


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Re: HALP? (Talk me down from buying a new camera?)
<Reply # 11 on 3/8/2013 6:41 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
A perfect thread to explain the difference between a lens-polisher and a photographer. So, I'll not comment on the photographs, but suggest you need to buy some more lenses. Neko.

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Re: HALP? (Talk me down from buying a new camera?)
<Reply # 12 on 3/10/2013 7:32 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Not sure if this was posted, but I got my 60D on B&H refurbished for $800. AI recommend looking around for deals near holidays.

DO NOT READ THIS!
UER Forum > Archived UE Photo Critiques > HALP? (Talk me down from buying a new camera?) (Viewed 1191 times)



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