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1 2 3 4 5 6   UER Forum > Archived UE Photography > I Will Probably Get Flamed for This (Viewed 4857 times) Cossette  Location: F/RoX Gender: Female If u smacked a kid in the face w/a bottle of Johnson's NoMore Tears would it create beautiful irony  |  Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This <Reply # 80 on 12/5/2010 9:31 AM >   Posted by Steed Time to get that prescription refilled. lmao fuckin miss ya steed "I'm selfish, impatient and a little insecure. I make mistakes, I am out of control and at times hard to handle. But if you can't handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don't deserve me at my best." — Marilyn Monroe Cossette  Location: F/RoX Gender: Female If u smacked a kid in the face w/a bottle of Johnson's NoMore Tears would it create beautiful irony  |  Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This <Reply # 81 on 12/5/2010 9:39 AM >   lmfao....wow thanks for the laughs....wow guys really? "I'm selfish, impatient and a little insecure. I make mistakes, I am out of control and at times hard to handle. But if you can't handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don't deserve me at my best." — Marilyn Monroe Intrinsic  Location: Collingwood Gender: Male  |  Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This <Reply # 82 on 12/5/2010 1:48 PM >   Posted by dsankt You and your opinions are irrelevant to me. And yet you seem to have quite a few of these yourself. Ironic. Harvestman  Location: Somewhere in SORTA/TANK Territory! Gender: Male Everything about me has a poker face.  |  |  Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This <Reply # 83 on 12/5/2010 11:01 PM >   Posted by Intrinsic And yet you seem to have quite a few of these yourself. Ironic. I'll tell you what's ironic. The fact that the author predicted that he would get flamed, and instead, everyone else on this thread but him has. Also, "That is priority #1. Never explore on your own. Ever." is not always true. If you know what you're doing, then go ahead and explore by yourself. If you're not sure, stay the fuck out. If you're not sure what you're doing, find a more safe hobby, such as crocheting. Oh good, my slow clap processor made it into this thing. Steed  Location: Edmonton/Seoul Gender: Male Your Friendly Neighbourhood Race Traitor  |  |  Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This <Reply # 84 on 12/6/2010 12:49 AM >   Posted by kowalski Is it "things that are not available to the general public" or is it "forbidden places"? Because you pitched a fit earlier when I suggested that "forbidden places" was an unwise limitation for a lot of reasons. Looking through the places you've put in the database, it's a real grab bag, so I'm not really sure why you were so excited to pigeonhole your hobby to begin with. I'd say almost all the places I've visited have been forbidden in some way. The artistic collectives (two currently) are at extreme odds with the city, and thus are forbidden, just putting up a strong enough fight. They are also usually anarchists with a strong disrespect for the establishment. They are in those buildings to spit in the face of GS or Samsung or whoever is redeveloping the land, who would like to say the buildings are forbidden. The abandoned neighbourhoods with squatters still there are often the most sensitive, and most of the time it's the residents themselves who forbid people from going there, which leads to large amounts of discretion. Construction companies hire goons to go around beating people up and trashing buildings in order to get people like that out, and when they fail, they send in the anti-terrorist riot squad (literally overkill, especially considering the so-called Yongsan Massacre). The last location I found, it was a hired goon who politely told me to leave, as he was going around evicting homes. I definitely wasn't supposed to be there for that. Keep in mind that people are killed during the eviction process (though usually before dawn, not when I'm there), and most other people here feel ashamed on behalf of their country that places like that exist and especially don't want foreigners seeing them. So if I see other people in abandoned buildings, they are probably forbidden from being there, and they often forbid me from being there because they're ashamed of how their old neighbourhood looks. When I originally said "forbidden," I did not mean "forbidden by law." The police are the least of my worries usually. Whenever my photos get posted on a more popular website, I get comments from random Koreans like as follows: FYI, I would like to correct some mistakes here. First of all, the author of this post was not actually supposed to go inside. It's forbidden to go inside as it will be under construction very soon. Second, it's not likely abandoned.* Around the resort, there are gonna be new housing area(apartments), and the resort will be transformed to bigger park! hope this helped u guys understand! That's why standing outside on the street in an abandoned neighbourhood is as forbidden as standing inside one abandoned building inside the neighbourhood; I'm transgressing on the whole country altogether by witnessing a shameful stage of urban renewal. Something that needs to be done by more people. *It was very much abandoned by my definition. Posted by kowalski So why you would previously want to pigeonhole your own activities as exploring places you've been "forbidden" to be I don't really know. Your interests are clearly broader than that. "Places that are not available to the public, or are not generally noticed or understood or appreciated by the public" seems like a much more sensible definition for what you're doing, and I'm glad you've come around to it. Apart from one former mental hospital, it doesn't look like you've made too much of an effort to do things you've been forbidden to do, so I'd hate to see you reduce your hobby to being about thumbing your nose at the law for no good reason. First off, I don't record all cases of getting caught in the LDB. I get caught all the time, at which point I either leave or circle around to the other side. I was caught by the hired goon in the middle of an abandoned neighbourhood, and he just trusted me to find my own way out. Same thing when DN and I were caught at a factory recently; the security guard basically said "The way out is on the other side of that abandoned school over there; run along now." There was the demolition worker once who kept asking us "Why? Why? Why? Why?" Oh, and there was the security guard who asked for my name and phone number...so he could ask me out on a date later? Anyway, I know how to make up an alias on the spot. My favourite reaction was when I was caught by a scrapper, and he didn't ask me to leave, but said "I feel ashamed for my country that you're taking pictures here." I'd say I get caught and asked to leave maybe a third of the time. "Forbidden" might be a strong word, maybe. Probably most accurate is "not supposed to." But the implications between the two are negligible, as the Korean guy I quoted demonstrated. If you're not supposed to do something, it is by definition forbidden. In fact, I'd wager that you are doing the word "forbidden" a disservice by pigeonholing it. Also, the act of forbidding a place in Korea is a bit more basic than it is in Canada. Here, they just have to put up a big green striped blanket and 99.9999% of all people will dutifully look the other way. It's not meant to keep people out--it has to allow workers and evictees through--it's just meant to keep regular people like me from looking at it accidentally. That's one thing I like about being here; it's extremely easy to step outside the line of decency, extremely easy to get away with it, and you don't find many other people doing it. Want to start a massive public uproar? Get a tattoo, say a swear word, take a moderately scary picture. Those things are all forbidden, and can really piss off the Korean public in ways you can't imagine, yet are pretty well accepted in North America. Posted by kowalski For everyone: Explore the city, explore the built environment, and be happy when you can see what you'd like to see and learn what you'd like to know without having to trespass (because it was one less thing to worry about today). When you have to trespass, or when you have to do more than trespass, make it for a good reason, and not just because your hobby or your adrenaline addiction apparently says that you have to go places you've been forbidden to be. And try to be doing something or working towards something or giving back something that makes it worthwhile for your community, your family, your neighbours, and your local authorities to tolerate your indiscretions and your violations of civil and sometimes criminal laws. Note that I do a fuckton of exploring public parts of the city; it just doesn't pop up on here unless it's for context. Someday I think everyone in this country will realise they're living in a post-modern nightmare of concrete highrises and sterile canals, and pictures like mine will become extremely culturally valuable. Also, possibly, my pictures might at some point lead to an improvement in the rights of evictees, though that's probably wishful thinking. Steed  Location: Edmonton/Seoul Gender: Male Your Friendly Neighbourhood Race Traitor  |  |  Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This <Reply # 85 on 12/6/2010 1:01 AM >   Posted by kowalski You posted an abandoned railway line, which you said was "a very beautiful walk." Also, this one was epignosis, not me. There are about five people who have in the past contributed Korea locations to the LDB before moving away. kowalski   |  Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This <Reply # 86 on 12/6/2010 8:14 PM >   Posted by Steed Also, this one was epignosis, not me. There are about five people who have in the past contributed Korea locations to the LDB before moving away. Ah sorry, my apologies. I was wading through, got distracted, and didn't check the account on that one. I'm sure it was a beautiful walk though, having spent a lot of time on active lines in the past few months I can really appreciate this kind of landscape experience and wish we wouldn't artificially cut ourselves off from possibilities like that by some fake sense of what is supposed to be an 'urban exploration' experience or what we think is going to be of interest to users here. As you indicate in your previous post, the real audience for the kind of work we're doing is out there, not inside the "UE" community. You're right that your work could be incredibly valuable, especially I think the work on threatened neighbourhoods. I hope you're recording a lot more about them than you're posting here, and trying to talk to the hold-outs when they'll let you. A record of their experiences and stories, coupled with your aesthetic experience of these neighbourhoods under threat and demolition, would certainly be book-worthy. The Seeker  Location: Greater Toronto Area Gender: Male Time's Person of the Year for 2006  |  |  Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This <Reply # 87 on 12/6/2010 8:25 PM >   Posted by kowalski Why? That's what it is. And why are you so worried about being mistaken for a sightseer? What is it about your thing that you would feel slighted if people thought you were sightseeing? Why should your hobby be distinguished from that? If that's the case, and what you're about is breaking laws and finding action, I think you should choose a different label than 'urban exploration'. Because the difference between the label and the little insular subset of activities you want to reduce things to is about equivalent to taking American Football and calling it 'American Conversation'. And I think you need to look carefully at the definition of forbidden, and decide whether that's really the thing you're going to hang your whole hobby on. Not just because there's no evidence for entry having been forbidden to lots of places (storm drains in many jurisdictions, for instance; abandoned structures that aren't houses on properties that aren't fenced/posted/whatever; etc.), but because of what it says about what you're doing. According to you, the point of your hobby is to break laws and ignore the interests (legitimate or otherwise) of property owners, their neighbours, communities, and the state. That sounds like a pretty selfish, disrespectful, and short-sighted thing to be doing, and it sounds like various authorities should be going out of their way to make an example of you. Kowalski=ALWAYS A DOWNER!!! Everything i have seen Kowalski post, has been negative or questioning people's intentions. nobody is here to flame! so take your flaming elsewhere, please and thank you! Sony a7II | Canon 5D mkII | Canon Rebel XSi | Sony 28mm f/2.0 | Yashica 50mm f/1.9 | Sigma 15mm f/2.8 fisheye | Sigma 10-20mm f/4-5.6 | Canon 50mm f/1.8 STM | Sigma 70-200 f/2.8 kowalski   |  Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This <Reply # 88 on 12/6/2010 9:28 PM >   Posted by The Seeker Kowalski=ALWAYS A DOWNER!!! Everything i have seen Kowalski post, has been negative or questioning people's intentions. You mean except when I was nice enough to relink an article for you, or when a few minutes ago in this very thread I was telling Steed how relevant his work was? o_O I'm not here to be a cheerleader for you or anyone else. You've got 200+ sycophantic users ready to tell you how great everything you do is, I don't know why you're so uncomfortable with the possibility that one sorry fucker like me might occasionally (or frequently) give you a bit of honest, sugar-free criticism, might want to say something meaningful or controversial aside from the usual pleasantries about the purpose and ethics of 'urban exploration', or might not be overawed by stale, unoriginal and context-free photography of empty buildings. Rather than shouting about how upset you are that I exist, why don't you spend your time doing something useful? For instance, I would love to see someone explain what 944 Brant Street has to do with the otherwise thoroughly suburban community of Burlington, Ontario (I lived there for almost two decades, so I know a few of the answers already, but still I think it's the place of people who've bothered to care about this industrial complex to say something meaningful about it). Why is it there? Why did it close? How did it relate to the Lakeshore rail corridor there, and (if at all) to the former corridor that ran southeast to the beach strip? Was it affected by increasing commuter traffic on the Lakeshore lines, or other politics/economic changes in rail service, or did its industry, whatever that was, simply move towards greater scales and centralization, or a trucking model of supply and delivery that made its location less efficient (and probably spatially confined) compared to alternatives in east Burlington or elsewhere in the GTA? How can we relate the site to the city around it, and how could it be reconnected to and reused in that city? You know, something actually relevant. I assume you care about the relevance of your hobby, seeing as you bothered to write an academic essay about it. Seeing as you wrote that essay, and thought a sociological conference paper about UE was worthy reading by members of this forum, I would also think you would have a thicker skin and greater appreciation of criticism. You also might choose to spend your time on these things, rather than posting threads like this one, where you, with no small amount of jealousy and seriously unearned pretension, call out someone who isn't even here for the "UER HATE" routine, all on account that you don't rate their photography as worthy of credit. Pot-Kettle-etc. KTHXBYE. Harvestman  Location: Somewhere in SORTA/TANK Territory! Gender: Male Everything about me has a poker face.  |  |  Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This <Reply # 89 on 12/7/2010 2:00 AM >   Posted by The Seeker Kowalski=ALWAYS A DOWNER!!! Everything i have seen Kowalski post, has been negative or questioning people's intentions. nobody is here to flame! so take your flaming elsewhere, please and thank you! This really helped. Oh good, my slow clap processor made it into this thing. Rockle  Location: Chicagoland Gender: Female Aint no walk in the park  |  Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This <Reply # 90 on 12/7/2010 3:22 PM >   kowalski I like you. That is all. I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of stars makes me dream. LostAmerica  Location: The West  |  |  Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This <Reply # 91 on 12/7/2010 7:28 PM >   Posted by kowalski Ten years ago, no one inside the North American 'urban exploration' community cared a wit about photography as anything more than a documentary tool. Not true. Aside from me shooting abandonments at night for 20+ years, man's fascination with ruins goes back forever. Paintings of ruins date back 1000 years. The mistake is in thinking that UE is somehow this new thing that only 21st century kids get. And that it somehow belongs to them. That's just not true. A few other observations: The "urban" in urban exploration? That means "man made," as in the opposite of natural. You can't do UE in Death Valley . . . unless it's one of the abandoned mines or ghost towns in DV. The idea that this site embraces people calling themselves "urban explorers" that "bust shit up" is deeply offensive to me. You're a vandal, not an explorer. But really kids, all this semantical wrangling and pissing and moaning is idiocy, and is frankly embarrassing. I said this the other day and the thread was promptly closed, but it's something that deserves discussion and it applies here too, so lets see if that happens again: Here's what I never really got about UER: Urban exploration is a very personal and private thing. Most explorers I know do it alone or with one, or maybe 2 other people. Most explorers I know are antisocial misfits and weirdos who generally dislike others. We tend to be loners. So, why would an urban explorer want to be part of a large community so they can chat with strangers? I understand that this is what the internet has done for every other hobby and interest: connecting people from all over the earth, who have this one thing in common. But UE isn't bird watching or stamp collecting. Online communities just seem antithetical to the whole UE mindset. www.lostamerica.com micro  Gender: Male Slowly I turned  |  Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This <Reply # 92 on 12/7/2010 8:36 PM >   Posted by LostAmerica So, why would an urban explorer want to be part of a large community so they can chat with strangers? I understand that this is what the internet has done for every other hobby and interest: connecting people from all over the earth, who have this one thing in common. But UE isn't bird watching or stamp collecting. Online communities just seem antithetical to the whole UE mindset. I'd argue that UE isn't much different than bird watching or stamp collecting, especially given the checklist and database driven precision in which it's practiced today. Talk to enough urban explorers and you'll realize that the bulk of initial discussions tend to be about what places they've been to or which ones they're planning to visit. It often reminds me of the times I was a kid and trading hockey cards with friends; 'got it, got it, need it, need it, got it.." It's essentially just another form of collecting, the same way travel itineraries set by the tourism industry often offer people a readymade collection of experiences to be consumed. Even without being this cynical though, I don't understand why it comes as a surprise that loners or veritable social retards might be happy to communicate with other people via the safety of an online forum. I'd argue that this forum wouldn't be what it is today (for better or worse) if it wasn't for the fact that a substantial number of its users are socially awkward in some way or another. Aside from that though, I'd also argue that being social isn't 'antithetical to the whole UE mindset' and that it's actually one of its cornerstones. I'm not talking about your idea of UE as it was practiced in the 8th century, but how it was starting to be defined in the 1990s. Stories were being shared either through publications like Infiltration or Il Draino, local groups were being formed, people from around the world were making efforts to get to know one another. There was a precedent for this sort of stuff even before the internet and online forums started adding more structure to the community. So I don't see this site as being contradictory to the UE mindset. If anything, it's been the recent unwillingness on behalf of its users to share stories and exchange ideas that seems to be at odds with UE and the energy that helped establish it. Its erosion is part of the reason I don't bother coming here so often anymore. Superlocrian  Location: Austin, TX Gender: Male  |  Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This <Reply # 93 on 12/7/2010 9:07 PM >   Posted by LostAmerica Urban exploration is a very personal and private thing. This^ Everyone has their own personal reasons for doing whatever it is they consider to be UE, and I don't see why anyone here would make any kind of value judgment on another person's concept of UE. also, what about this hobby of ours is even remotely meaningful, important, or relevant to anything? I say nothing. we all enjoy it for various reasons that are our own and they are all completely irrelevant. my point is that kowalski and everyone else involved in this discussion (now including me) need to chill out, get off the computer and go explore something for no good reason and simply enjoy it for whatever reason you personally enjoy it. Edit: also, I enjoyed your article Neil T [last edit 12/7/2010 9:08 PM by Superlocrian - edited 1 times] Steed  Location: Edmonton/Seoul Gender: Male Your Friendly Neighbourhood Race Traitor  |  |  Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This <Reply # 94 on 12/7/2010 10:26 PM >   Posted by Superlocrian Everyone has their own personal reasons for doing whatever it is they consider to be UE, and I don't see why anyone here would make any kind of value judgment on another person's concept of UE. I agree, within reason. There are definitely people we all want to distance ourselves from. We can all agree that vandals, taggers, scrappers, and arsonists have no right to call themselves urban explorers. On the other hand, it's a big tent, and there's room for most of us. There are people who go to abandoned buildings, railfans, people who only go in drains, mines, etc. We have a lot to learn from each other, and anyone who sticks to only one activity is limiting themselves. For instance, I never would've thought to climb cranes if it weren't for this site (which turned out to be a lot of fun). Posted by Superlocrian also, what about this hobby of ours is even remotely meaningful, important, or relevant to anything? I say nothing. we all enjoy it for various reasons that are our own and they are all completely irrelevant. If we enjoy it for various reasons that are our own, not all of them are necessarily completely irrelevant. There are people on here who are historians, serious photographers, artists, and activists. My UE experiences have enriched my life and cultural understanding in very practical ways, and as I previously stated, I'm expecting in the future they will be very relevant to a wider audience. I'm in agreement with kowalski that it should ideally be meaningful. Posted by Superlocrian my point is that kowalski and everyone else involved in this discussion (now including me) need to chill out, get off the computer and go explore something for no good reason and simply enjoy it for whatever reason you personally enjoy it. Good advice for everyone. It's way more fun doing that than arguing about what you're doing on a message board. LostAmerica  Location: The West  |  |  Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This <Reply # 95 on 12/7/2010 11:38 PM >   Posted by micro I'd argue that UE isn't much different than bird watching or stamp collecting, especially given the checklist and database driven precision in which it's practiced today. Right, this is the UER mindset, but I don't really think it really fits the reason why people do UE. UE is not like other hobbies because it isn't about collecting merit badges, it's about having powerful emotional experiences. And that's why weirdos like me have done it for almost 40 years. I don't do it so I can come here and brag about it, I do it because it fulfills me, it scratches a spiritual itch. It's much deeper than other 'hobbies.' In fact, it's not really a hobby, it's a calling. Posted by micro Aside from that though, I'd also argue that being social isn't 'antithetical to the whole UE mindset' and that it's actually one of its cornerstones. I'm not talking about your idea of UE as it was practiced in the 8th century, but how it was starting to be defined in the 1990s. Again, that's just ignoring the fact that the exploration of ruins, and telling stories about it, in prose, poetry, songs, paintings and photography was already defined looong before the 1990s! The UE culture at large, that acts like UE is something that only their generation has done, needs to get over themselves and learn a little history. Artists that create ruins-based art have always been misfits and oddballs. Historically, we're a melancholy bunch recording melancholy things. Almost all the ruins art in the past was moody-broody stuff. Provocatively questioning of the society that was responsible for those ruins. The general public has always been attracted to the melodramatic statement that ruins-based art makes, but they don't really understand why we'd want to do this, and they never will. So by letting the www turn it into 'just another hobby' where the object is to simply collect sites you've visited, makes it palatable for the masses to understand and experience, even though they don't have any idea that the deeper meaning that UE holds even exists. It just debases the real soul of why we do this. www.lostamerica.com kowalski   |  Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This <Reply # 96 on 12/8/2010 12:34 AM >   Posted by LostAmerica it's about having powerful emotional experiences. And that's why weirdos like me have done it for almost 40 years. I don't do it so I can come here and brag about it, But you're so good about doing that part, why deny what is clearly a deep, personal directive to come here and assert that you've been doing it for 40 years? Also I'm not quite sure how your herring about loners and social communities fits with your own participation here. Again, that's just ignoring the fact that the exploration of ruins, and telling stories about it, in prose, poetry, songs, paintings and photography was already defined looong before the 1990s! Sure, that's why I'm always pretty careful to relate my comments specifically to the community of people who self-identify as pursuing 'urban exploration'. This is a particularly 1990s-Present phenomenon, does have some of the social characteristics you're assigning to it (I'd go further and call it a very solipsistic activity, with all the problems associated with that extreme), and has to be dealt with in a very particular way... The UE culture at large, that acts like UE is something that only their generation has done, needs to get over themselves and learn a little history. I would agree with you, but with qualifications. Christopher Woodward's In Ruins is a good place to start for understanding this history and for gaining a bit of self-understanding about the appeal of ruins. But 'urban exploration' is a particular manifestation of these impulses and desires, filtered through the self-obsessive narcissism and techno-collective fetishes of today. It is not the same as Shelley or Joseph Gandy, and thinking it is risks missing a core lesson about the folly inherent in obsessing over ruins in themselves. Provocatively questioning of the society that was responsible for those ruins. I rarely see any evidence of 'urban exploration' participants actually doing this. they don't really understand why we'd want to do this, and they never will. They won't as long as we fail to make our work and our transgressions relevant and valuable to that society, until we bring our view of the ruins (and other marginal places) into conversation with life outside of them. That we have some kind of deep attraction to abandoned or messy or off-limits places is not sufficient, we need to have something to say beyond "it's there and it's sublime." The failure to do this is the central failure of 'urban exploration' and 'urban explorers'. LostAmerica  Location: The West  |  |  Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This <Reply # 97 on 12/8/2010 3:16 AM >   If you re-read my post Kow, you'll see I'm kinda on your side here on some things. Posted by kowalski But you're so good about doing that part, why deny what is clearly a deep, personal directive to come here and assert that you've been doing it for 40 years? Nah, I participate here very little. I do some lurking, just to take the temperature of, and try to understand the rest of the UE world. I suppose being voyeuristic is another of those common weirdo-misfit UE traits . . . I found this thread (and the one I killed the other day) to be interesting because it deals with this particular issue. Sorry if the 40 years thing feels gratuitous. I mention it because I've been around long enough to think about this shit way too much. I understand where 21st century UE culture fits with the rest of history, something that few people doing this for 5 years or less rarely consider. Posted by kowalski Also I'm not quite sure how your herring about loners and social communities fits with your own participation here. Please note that when I did choose to participate, it was in a thread about questioning the communal aspect of UER. Posted by me and kowalski "Provocatively questioning of the society that was responsible for those ruins" I rarely see any evidence of 'urban exploration' participants actually doing this. That was my point. But I tell you, if the photography is good, it poses those questions without actually saying it with words. Visual storytelling can be much more compelling than words. Unfortunately, most UE photography isn't that good. Posted by me and kowalski They won't ("understand why we'd want to do this, and they never will.") as long as we fail to make our work and our transgressions relevant and valuable to that society, until we bring our view of the ruins (and other marginal places) into conversation with life outside of them. That we have some kind of deep attraction to abandoned or messy or off-limits places is not sufficient, we need to have something to say beyond "it's there and it's sublime." The failure to do this is the central failure of 'urban exploration' and 'urban explorers'. Now here's where we disagree. Depicting that emotional event, that peak experience, can be enough. Art is about emotion, not analysis. Yes, analysis can enhance the piece, but it's about that gut feeling first. The general public not understanding the true depth of our obsession is OK. You can't expect them to really understand artists and their motivations. And I don't want them to. All the best art is a little bit inscrutable. It's not up to us to "convert" anyone or beat them over the head with it. For most citizens, that "it's there and it's sublime" thing is enough. Yes, if an artist can go deeper, whether with compelling words or imagery, that is what causes the best work to rise above the white noise of the 10,000 other UE-based artists. Everyone can't be that. And again, that's OK. You gotta let go of your dogma and rules and understand that it's simply not black and white, it's all shades of gray. For me it's more about the raw emotion of a place, for you it's more about the history and implications. How we differently depict these aspects of UE doesn't matter, so long as we do it well. www.lostamerica.com kowalski   |  Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This <Reply # 98 on 12/8/2010 3:25 AM >   Posted by LostAmerica For me it's more about the raw emotion of a place That doesn't sound very gray to me. desmet  When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.  |  |  |  Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This <Reply # 99 on 12/8/2010 3:59 AM >   LOL @ this debate still raging so many years later. The fact that so many of us are still exploring (and new assholes are starting every day) despite people's boring, worthless, and trite pretensions is proof of just how full of shit most people on this site really are. No matter how much bullshit you all spew, it doesn't stop a single fucking person from going out and doing whatever the fuck they want, whenever the fuck they want, for whateverthefuck reasons they want. It's one of the benefits of having a hobby that's already illegal. How to urban explore, by me. Decide you want to go somewhere, possibly an abandoned building or other offlimits space, for some reason. Get into that somewhere, somehow Try not to get caught or, failing that, decide you don't give a shit if you get arrested over and over again. Do whatever you went there to do...take pictures, smash things, get knee-walking drunk, whatever. The world is your oyster when there are no cops around. The end. [last edit 12/8/2010 4:00 AM by desmet - edited 1 times] UER Forum > Archived UE Photography > I Will Probably Get Flamed for This (Viewed 4857 times)  1 2 3 4 5 6   All content and images copyright © 2002-2024 UER.CA and respective creators. Graphical Design by Crossfire. To contact webmaster, or click to email with problems or other questions about this site: UER CONTACT View Terms of Service | View Privacy Policy | Server colocation provided by Beanfield This page was generated for you in 140 milliseconds. 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