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UER Forum > Archived US: South > Drainer's Nightmare in Minneapolis (Viewed 593 times)
RobertB 


Location: Skeeterville, TX
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Drainer's Nightmare in Minneapolis
< on 4/27/2009 10:40 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Driving to work, I was looking at some of my local drains, wondering what it would look like in there during a gullywasher. Turns out a pair of drainers in Minnesota found out the hard way -- and one didn't survive to tell.

Man dies, another rescued in drama along Mississippi River
HERÓN MÁRQUEZ ESTRADA, Star Tribune
http://www.startri...west/43744557.html

An urban explorer died Sunday after being swept into the Mississippi River in St. Paul when a bluffside tunnel he and a companion were exploring filled with rainwater during a thunderstorm.

Ian William Talty, 30, of Woodbury, died despite a frantic rescue effort by a St. Paul police officer and several students from the nearby University of St. Thomas, said St. Paul Fire Marshal Steve Zaccard.

Talty's companion, Nicholas Breid, swam to shore and survived.

Breid, 29, of Richfield, was evaluated at a hospital and released to his wife, Zaccard said, adding that he "didn't have any injuries, but he was very, very shaken up."

The men, who were exploring and photographing the tunnel, became trapped by rushing water when a thunderstorm erupted just before 10 a.m. They were swept into the river south of the Lake Street-Marshall Avenue Bridge, on the St. Paul side of the river.

More story at the link, including details of attempted rescue.

I've written "IWT" on my arm in memory of a fellow drainer that I never got the chance to know.


Edit: Already under discussion in the Great Lakes Forum, of course. The locals are swapping stories about other tragedies in the big pipes that lead to the Mississippi River. It doesn't look like the victims were on UER, but the deceased had a Flickr page.
[last edit 4/27/2009 10:45 PM by RobertB - edited 1 times]

J'ai toujours fait une prière à Dieu, qui est fort courte.
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UsER28459 


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Re: Drainer's Nightmare in Minneapolis
<Reply # 1 on 4/28/2009 2:35 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Sad news indeed!

http://www.uer.ca/...d=67363&currpage=1

I was exploring the cave last night. That's why I was late.
RobertB 


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Re: Drainer's Nightmare in Minneapolis
<Reply # 2 on 4/29/2009 6:45 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
One interesting thread in the discussion in the incident's home forum is the shared experience. Apparently, many of the MSP draining community has heard the "freight train" of an approaching deluge, and attempted to return to the point of entry (usually a manhole) before being washed out to the Mississippi. Check out the link, the stories are awesome.

But they've got me thinking... could it happen here? And the answer I'm coming up with is, "no".

North Texas is flat. Sure, we have some hills, but overall the area is as flat as a level tablespoon of flour. Drainage is generally a pretty simple matter -- make a low spot, and connect it to another low spot.

Plus, our access points tend to *be* the outflow pipes. I haven't heard a story so far that involved opening a manhole as the best access into a drain. Maybe as a fun way in, or an unexpected way out, but you can usually just walk downhill to a 8-foot pipe, or uphill to a large inlet.

And there's the destination. MSP drains into the mighty Mississippi. DFW drains into the terrible Trinity. "Signature bridges" aside, the Trinity is a bar ditch compared to the Mississippi, even way up in Minnesota. One story on the Minneapolis thread talked about the outflow shooting 50 feet out before landing in the river. 99 percent of the time, if you shot out 50 feet, you'd be on the other *side* of our river.

To be sure, we have our dangerous spots. I wouldn't want to go checking out the Cole Park Detention Vault without an experienced guide, in the middle of a drought, and with my life insurance double-checked for "death due to stupidity" clauses. And draining in a rainstorm is going to be a bad plan, especially if you don't know the creek. We do have kids drown every year or two from getting caught up in a flash flood.

Overall, though, I don't think we face the same dangers as our more topographically endowed brethren and sistren in other parts of the country. I can't see a story showing up in the Dallas Morning News like the one in the Minneapolis Star-Tribune.

But my draining experience is sadly limited. What do the more seasoned explorers think about the dangers of Dallas drains in rainy weather?

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La voici: "Mon Dieu, rendez nos ennemis bien ridicules!"
Dieu m'a exaucé.
Noah Vale 


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Re: Drainer's Nightmare in Minneapolis
<Reply # 3 on 4/29/2009 7:19 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
My copy of photoshop should be arriving at my house in the next week or so. I'll show you what I think of your opinion when I can resize the pictures to under 100k.

"Dallas is a magnificent and wide open city, and I'm deeply envious of any urban explorers who have the good fortune to live there." -Ninj.
RobertB 


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Re: Drainer's Nightmare in Minneapolis
<Reply # 4 on 4/29/2009 7:30 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
oh crap

J'ai toujours fait une prière à Dieu, qui est fort courte.
La voici: "Mon Dieu, rendez nos ennemis bien ridicules!"
Dieu m'a exaucé.
AnAppleSnail 


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Re: Drainer's Nightmare in Minneapolis
<Reply # 5 on 4/29/2009 11:14 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by RobertB
But my draining experience is sadly limited. What do the more seasoned explorers think about the dangers of Dallas drains in rainy weather?


Well, I'm told by my rainwater conservation experts that 1 mm of rain on 1 meter of area gives a liter of water. Now, 1 cubic meter of water is 1000 liters, and every inch of rain has 25.4 mm in it.

-engineer alert-



1 Acre = 4047 square meters
1 square meter x 1 mm rain = 1 liter rain
1 inch = 25.4 mm
2110 acres = 8539170 square meters


(inches) x (8539170 square meters) x (25.4 mm per inch)^2 x (1/1000 liters per cubic meter) = cubic meters of water.
Inches Liters Cubic meters
1 5,509,130,900 5,509,100
2 11,018,261,800 11,018,300
3 16,527,392,700 16,527,400
4 22,036,523,700 22,036,500
5 27,545,654,600 27,545,700
6 33,054,785,500 33,054,800



My campus (2110 acre section) is drained by 3 3' drains, 2 4' drains, and a handful of 2' drains in between. That works out to about the equivalent of a single 9' pipe for capacity (Mouth area).

It's suggested that no drainpipe exceed 6 meters per second or it will damage the concrete. That's 13 mph, but let's assume half that. So every second, a (full) 9' drain could have 760 m^3 (2500 ft^3, 760 metric tons) of water going through at bicycle speed. What would it be like with just 2' of water in a 9' pipe? You'd have around 70 cubic meters per second (250 cubic meters) of water weighing 70 metric tons (154000 pounds) zipping along.

What would it take to fill it like this? It's a little hillier here, but what would 1 hour of 1 inch of rainfall pour through a 9' pipe? Let's assume that all the water is in a drain within 3 hours.

[(Above m^3 value) * (1/60 hours per minute) * (1/60 minutes per second)] / 3

1 500
2 1000
3 1500
4 2000
5 2500
6 3100

These are assuming that the instant the rain begins falling, the water goes straight in the drain and flows out at a constant rate. In reality, the peak flow will be higher and the initial and final flows lower. But that's hard to model, and civil engineers won't have a common rainstorm leaving big puddles for very long - it's probably ok to assume that all the rain will flow away over 3 hours. On concrete city blocks it won't go anywhere but in a drain.

--Done engineering--


The 1" rainfall already leaves the 9' pipe more than 2' deep after 3 hours. If it's shallower that's only because the water is going faster. Maybe you could skitter along with your feet on the RCP sides out of the current and call this a close one. The 2" rainfall is enough to likely kill you if you stay in the pipe. You'll have 3-4 feet of water and all sorts of interesting debris. Anything touching the water that isn't nailed down will nip at your ankles as you cling to a ladder. Just a 4" rainfall would nearly fill the whole thing with screaming whitewater - 9' of raging death, enough to push anything you can fit in a drain, and hit it with rocks and trees. One time I saw a telephone pole in a drain...


Basically, a medium or fair bit of rainfall on a few city blocks will make its drains uninhabitable. A lot of rain will make the grates rattle at street level. You've seen 80-pound grates that once fell in, and were dragged along the drain until they fell out of the current. I've seen curb sections (yeah, the ones beside the road) 6' long, in the middle of a drain. It moved during the last tropical storm. I've seen gouges in the wall, places where steprungs were once ripped out, and I've seen what's left of scaffolding that was built in a culvert. I'm never going in a drain when there's rain, and I'm going to run as fast as I can to a place out of the torrent if the one I'm in starts rising.

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altaria 


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Re: Drainer's Nightmare in Minneapolis
<Reply # 6 on 4/30/2009 4:11 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by AnAppleSnail

*lots of numbers and calculations*


All I can say is wow. Absolutely fascinating how little rain it takes to equal death. Especially in places where the rain isn't a soft and steady drizzle, but often a mad tempest that comes quickly, causes some flash floods, then is gone. You'd think that the slogan of "when it rains, no drains" would be sufficient enough, but I guess a lot of people don't realize it means when it rains AT ALL no drains.

Thanks for all the mathematical details! (crazy engineers)

RevSM 


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Re: Drainer's Nightmare in Minneapolis
<Reply # 7 on 4/30/2009 3:37 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I've only heard that freight train sound once and started running towards the exit. It's very disorienting in a tunnel especially if you've been in there for a long time since you have no idea what the sky looks like. Thankfully I realized that the sound we heard was really only a large diesel truck starting its engine.

The Cole park tunnel (not the vault) is actually sort of considered part of a river (correct me if I'm wrong) so there is always water running through it. It's kinda peaceful while also being kinda disorienting because sometimes you think you hear the constant hiss of water increase... but you can't quite be sure. So you just kinda hope that if there is a flash flood, it'll make a sound you can't mistake.

Most of the tunnels in the area seem to me to be ones that really aren't large enough to spend a whole lot of time in so it seems more unlikely that you will get caught in one. It's still a real possibility and it's usually not a bad idea to take a look at the weather forecast before venturing into one of the more extensive tunnel systems. Even then a flash flood can brew up with little warning.

My condolences to the survivors.



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Arch-Image 


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Re: Drainer's Nightmare in Minneapolis
<Reply # 8 on 4/30/2009 5:34 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by AnAppleSnail

Basically, a medium or fair bit of rainfall on a few city blocks will make its drains uninhabitable. A lot of rain will make the grates rattle at street level. You've seen 80-pound grates that once fell in, and were dragged along the drain until they fell out of the current. I've seen curb sections (yeah, the ones beside the road) 6' long, in the middle of a drain. It moved during the last tropical storm. I've seen gouges in the wall, places where steprungs were once ripped out, and I've seen what's left of scaffolding that was built in a culvert. I'm never going in a drain when there's rain, and I'm going to run as fast as I can to a place out of the torrent if the one I'm in starts rising.


This reminds me of the calc's they had us run when I went through OSHA class. The guy teaching was reminding us that when you hear of a trench cave in consider the person is DOA because dirt weighs in at @ 125 ponds per sq. Ft. When you run the numbers a 6' deep trench 5' wide with only a 5' long section that gives way you have created @ 9 tons of weight on the person.

I agree, our thoughts and best to the people involved........
[last edit 4/30/2009 5:35 PM by Arch-Image - edited 1 times]

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Re: Drainer's Nightmare in Minneapolis
<Reply # 9 on 4/30/2009 5:42 PM >
Posted on Forum: Infiltration Forums
 
Posted by altaria


All I can say is wow. Absolutely fascinating how little rain it takes to equal death. Especially in places where the rain isn't a soft and steady drizzle, but often a mad tempest that comes quickly, causes some flash floods, then is gone. You'd think that the slogan of "when it rains, no drains" would be sufficient enough, but I guess a lot of people don't realize it means when it rains AT ALL no drains.

Thanks for all the mathematical details! (crazy engineers)


Well if you think about it.... it only takes about 2 inches of water on a paved surface to displace a car. The average car weighs about 3000 pounds. The average human weighs roughly 140-160 pounds... don't need too much water to sweep you off your feet. Plus, if you're in a tunnel (and I've only been in a drain ONCE and I hurt myself and there was no water whatsoever...), with all the turns and debris that might be in there, plus the fact that it's a concrete structure, fast moving water is bound to kick your ass.

Fun fact about water, not making light of the tragedy of lost life, it is basically a congealed material. When comparing sand to water, sand separate because it's composed of individual grains. Water cannot separate from itself because the bonds are too small and too compacted, not to mention there are more of them. This is why we have waves and ripple effects that last for hundreds of miles and why water temperature in one location directly effects other areas. The science and engineering of nature is awesome.

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Re: Drainer's Nightmare in Minneapolis
<Reply # 10 on 4/30/2009 7:16 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
A lot depends on the grade of the drain and the speed at which everything's coming down through it. Here in Montreal, two or more feet of water/sewage is pretty common during dry-weather and it's still pretty manageable-- even for a light (135 lb) guy like me.

A typical example: http://www.youtube...atch?v=2zzShNksygo

We eventually stepped out into that main channel and were surprised at how easy it was. I suppose the brickwork or coarse concrete used in sewers here tends to help though. More modern materials would probably be a bit less forgiving, especially if the treads on your boots are worn down.

Also, most systems do a pretty good job of keeping debris out during heavy rainfalls. If it doesn't fit through the slots of a catchbasin or infall grill then chances are it's not getting through easily.

Anyways.. that's not to say these places can't get dangerous at times. I'm just saying that while formulas might look good in theory, in practice they might not always work out the way you expect them to.

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Re: Drainer's Nightmare in Minneapolis
<Reply # 11 on 4/30/2009 8:59 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by corbenator


Well if you think about it.... it only takes about 2 inches of water on a paved surface to displace a car. The average car weighs about 3000 pounds. The average human weighs roughly 140-160 pounds... don't need too much water to sweep you off your feet. The science and engineering of nature is awesome.


Well I thought about it and decided that is some incredibly poor science.

Ive driven through a lot more than 2 inches of water without being "displaced"

Ive seen cars sitting in a lot more water than that and they werent displaced either.

You must be talking about hydroplaning, or displacing the average 3000lb car

on Pluto.

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Re: Drainer's Nightmare in Minneapolis
<Reply # 12 on 4/30/2009 9:39 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
my suggestion? Check the weather before you go draining. If it's going to rain at all, I wouldn't go. The weather man has been wrong before and it would suck to be caught down there amidst a torrent of water all because the weather man was par for the course.

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Re: Drainer's Nightmare in Minneapolis
<Reply # 13 on 4/30/2009 10:34 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I have been in drains that had stuff stuck to the ceiling (top) of the pipe that would normally float in the surface. That tells me the 7-8 foot pipe has at some point been full of water. I have heard of explorers here popping manhole covers but I haven't as yet. Besides, I suffer from some claustrophobia so shimmying down a skinny pipe is out of the question for me... besides, I might become the clog in an otherwise clear pipe!

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Re: Drainer's Nightmare in Minneapolis
<Reply # 14 on 4/30/2009 11:10 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by SilentSearch
I have been in drains that had stuff stuck to the ceiling (top) of the pipe that would normally float in the surface. That tells me the 7-8 foot pipe has at some point been full of water. I have heard of explorers here popping manhole covers but I haven't as yet. Besides, I suffer from some claustrophobia so shimmying down a skinny pipe is out of the question for me... besides, I might become the clog in an otherwise clear pipe!


I left a drain by a storm grate because the water started getting deeper with no notable flow increase. That weirded me out because it means that something blocked the outfall - and going downhill in a cylinder filling with water is a Bad Idea. Turns out that they're precariously balanced here, I caught it with the back of my head to keep it from hitting my shoulders in its intended plummet. That was fun.

Next time the spillway near here is hit by a hurricane I'll get some pictures and video. You get this sweet sheet of water about 8" thick flowing around 30 mph. When it falls off the spillway it turns into a torrent of 20-foot-deep whitewater death. Drains here have enough infall/outfall where a lot was left with unburied stream, so I've found ladders and scaffolding and other fun things (Sharp aluminum blades was my favorite).

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Re: Drainer's Nightmare in Minneapolis
<Reply # 15 on 5/1/2009 7:16 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by 2Xplorations


Well I thought about it and decided that is some incredibly poor science.

Ive driven through a lot more than 2 inches of water without being "displaced"

Ive seen cars sitting in a lot more water than that and they werent displaced either.

You must be talking about hydroplaning, or displacing the average 3000lb car

on Pluto.


Two inches isn't going to break you, but it's hard to tell sometimes how deep it is.

If the water is flowing, the science takes a turn for the worse. A cross flow of about 3-6 inches @ say 10 MPH is probably enough to start causing trouble. I've been riding in an F-250 HD's that got "pushed" sideways like that. It made you glad it weren't in a car! After seeing that water was almost to the truck's axials, cars following us still tried to cross as we were counter steering to get to the other side. dah.

A human will be along for the ride if they fall into water of any appreciable depth that is flowing more than about 5 MPH. Fighting it will only end in exhaustion and death. Your only chance is to swim sideways to the current, grab something to hold on to, or ride it out and hope the any totally submerged parts of the journey don't last too long. And that you don't get caught on something while submerge, or panic, or get hypothermia, or get knocked out, or busted up too bad to stay effective.
It's a very bad trip, and if you have waders on, or just too much clothing/gear, it may really get bad fast.

All that aside, shit happens, and sometimes you're just shit out of luck. I'm not making any character judgments on this poor soul. He paid will as much as anyone can, and didn't kill anyone else in the process.


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Re: Drainer's Nightmare in Minneapolis
<Reply # 16 on 5/1/2009 1:20 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
All this just reminds me of why I don't usually do drains.

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RobertB 


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Re: Drainer's Nightmare in Minneapolis
<Reply # 17 on 5/1/2009 7:38 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
So the Saturday forecast (courtesy of the DMN) doesn't lend itself to subterranean activities, I guess. Unless those activities are intended to include the possibility of sudden death.

Which of course, leads me to conclude that Musket Boy will be draining tomorrow.

Mostly cloudy with a 30 percent chance of showers and thunderstorms.
Some thunderstorms may be severe with heavy rainfall.
Highs in the upper 70s. South winds 10 to 15 mph.


J'ai toujours fait une prière à Dieu, qui est fort courte.
La voici: "Mon Dieu, rendez nos ennemis bien ridicules!"
Dieu m'a exaucé.
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Re: Drainer's Nightmare in Minneapolis
<Reply # 18 on 5/1/2009 7:51 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Well there is a lot more to do in that area then just drains.

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Re: Drainer's Nightmare in Minneapolis
<Reply # 19 on 5/6/2009 4:00 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I don't normally come into the south forum being from Denver, but I'm headed to Hendrix for college so I was browsing around...

Anyway,
Reading this thread reminded me of an experience I had here.
My friends and I were planning on doing a drain on a gray day, but we were expecting no rain. I pulled my second wader on, stepped next to the pond, and saw the tiniest drops you've ever seen. We looked at it, and said, let's wait it out. So we left and went to go do a building (which we didn't because we witnessed a failed car theft outside and had to call the cops...)
We went back to the drain about 90 minutes later, three massive parallel square pipes leading from a 9' red brick were coming out 80% high at high velocity. They sounded not unlike jumbo jet engines, it was incredible. They drain into a pond which drains down a 10' slope out into the platte. The platte is like 50' wide at this part, water wasn't hitting the river until 15-20' feet out, and most of the river was diverted around this single drain outflow. We didn't see rain where we were at the building (only a few miles away, very close to the drain's origins) and thus we concluded that a small amount of water draining across a huge flat urban expanse is a sufficient amount of water to flush a lot of things. I feel so sorry for the poor fellow who got caught (where the thread started) after seeing that, it really was a humbling experience, and that must be a terrible way to go.

UER Forum > Archived US: South > Drainer's Nightmare in Minneapolis (Viewed 593 times)



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