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UER Forum > Archived Old Forum Issues > Recommendations for Improving the Location Database (Viewed 765 times)
kowalski 






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Recommendations for Improving the Location Database
< on 4/5/2006 11:28 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Hi. If you've followed developments here much the last two and a half years, you'll know that I've railed pretty consistently against the Location Database. I was against it when it was introduced, I've been critical of it throughout its life and my changing roles here, and I've recently asked probing questions about its possible futures. If you ask me whether I still think we'd be better off without it, my answer remains yes, but since that opinion is clearly beside the point officially, I'm going to offer some constructive suggestions on how to effect marginal improvements to the thing.

There are three basic problems with the LDB as it currently exists:

1) Imperfect authorial control of contributed content.
This has been discussed fairly extensively with no solution so far. As a mod I was privy to more of the problems than are generally apparent publicly. While some improvements have been made regarding galleries, the issue of author-control of information they posted regarding a location is not going to go away.

2) Content is dictated by the fields and generally lacks greater meaning or value.
Most database entries are little more than index cards, and reading it is like spending an evening chewing on cardboard. While there are exceptions, the wheat : chaff ratio is abysmally low. Most entries don't really tell us anything, most entries don't make us feel anything, most entries fail miserably in translating the act of exploration that lead to their existence. Because of this, gallery content has been emphasized (not only in the db, but arguably on these forums and elsewhere in the internet community). Unfortunately, most galleries are bloated, poorly composed, and do nothing to take us further into the actual experience of the site than the entry itself does.

3) An open-authorship database meant to encourage self-publishing achieves the exact opposite.
In my opinion, the existence of the LDB discourages people from building their own websites or discussing their experiences at a location in detail anywhere. It has reduced the diversity of our online communications and publishing even as it has contributed to the explosive growth of new members. On the UER forums, we get lots of "New location/Gallery added to the database" threads, and little actual discussion of what was seen, felt and learned while exploring the place. This is not, contrary to the new blood opinion, how things always were here. Before the database, people frequently posted interesting, detailed and sometimes hair-raising recountings of their adventures. Now, more and more, all we get are links to galleries full of same-looking, lifeless photos.

By chronicling what we've done in the flattest way possible, the database discourages honest assessment, synthesis and evaluation of our experiences within broader contexts. It encourages an ignorant, cultish and frankly boring hobby. It also reinforces the treatment of each location in isolate, which while always a problem in this pursuit (and our civilization in general) is unduly amplified by the indexing of the LDB. We fail to examine the interrelations between locations, and between one location and other aspects of the urban field that fall outside of the strict limits of the abandoned building exploration that most of the people here concern themselves with exclusively.

So what's to be done? Well, obviously my first suggestion would simply be to can the thing and force people to start publishing themselves again and let creative difference take hold in their individual decisions over what and how to publish. But since that is very clearly not going to happen, here is my concrete, constructive, also three-parted recommendation for improving the database:

i) De-emphasize or eliminate the fielded information that currently occupies the front of the entry page.
In 95% of entries, the provided information in these fields is inaccurate, incomplete or uninteresting to the point of being worthless. They reduce a place and space that felt like something to the people who explored it to a few pointless chunks of abstraction that do no such thing. Worse still, their prominence and limits discourage more intensive writing about the place or about the explorers' experiences therein, within the LDB entry or even elsewhere. If this information is going to be kept at all, put it one click further into the location or at the bottom of the first page, where it will be secondary to the primary content.

ii) Modify the Stories feature, and elevate this content to the front page of each entry.
This should be where the textual meat of the location entry lies, but it has gone woefully underutilized since it was belatedly introduced in response to some of the same sort of criticism that I offered above. This is mostly because any effort an author puts into writing a coherent and compelling story with this feature is going to be buried one click further into the entry and won't even get an eye-catching thumbnail to encourage click-through to it. It's a significant disincentive to taking the time to write something real about a location or about one's experiences there. The current focus on the location's abstract particulars also discourages people from writing about the thing in a meaningful way, thus point (i).

So, what we should do is put the stories right on the first page of the entry, at the top, right underneath the big photo. Encourage/force people to write factual descriptions of the location long-form and in equal emphasis with their actual experiences, without being hemmed and conditioned by form fields. Each database author would write their own full content entry about the place, which would then be displayed as a Lead Entry and then a blog-style list of additional contributions with thumbnails and brief (20 word) excerpts or user-entered description.

User/moderator ratings would be replaced by a simple button attached to each contributor's written content, labelled "Recommend this Contribution" or something like that. The system would keep a tally of recommends and lead with the highest-rated contribution. If no contribution had yet been recommended or multiple ones shared an equal number of recommends, the system would lead with one at random.

iii) Tie all a user's contributed content within a location together and cap the number of photos they can add to a reasonably digested number, like 10 or 12 or 20.
Discourage users from just submitting galleries of photos by connecting the gallery and description/story entry. The high-rated and thus lead story content will give priority viewing for the gallery that's attached to it, encouraging people to write rather than just post buckets of photos. Galleries would be nested with the stories - the system's lead story would appear on the front page of the location entry along with its full, expanded gallery, while other users' contributed galleries would be packaged with their stories, one thumbnailed click further in.

What will all this achieve? It will hopefully make reading and writing for the database a more meaningful and community-advancing experience. It will encourage actual self-publishing rather than the indexation that's been going on for the past two years. It will eliminate the problem of authorial control by giving contributors complete control over the entirety of their LDB content, regardless of how many people contribute to a location. It will discourage entries about sheds and cemeteries and jungle gyms by making it less tenable for someone to add something they can't write about in interesting long-form about. And it will hopefully make people think a little more, reach a little further, and say a bit more with what they are inputing.

So there you have it. Comments? Criticisms? Support?

I've already run this by Av, though not quite in this detail and with nothing yet in response from him beyond a statement of general intrigue. Now it's time to hear from everyone, regardless of whether you love the db, tolerate its existence, or hate it. If you're a hater and don't think this proposal does enough, don't derail the discussion by saying "Get rid of it." Instead, speak to the specific deficiencies that the proposal fails to address, and let's see if we can't do something constructive about them too. I really don't like the thing, remember, but I can still offer my best effort to make it better. So can you.
[last edit 4/5/2006 11:36 PM by kowalski - edited 3 times]

Ricotta 

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Re: Recommendations for Improving the Location Database
<Reply # 1 on 4/6/2006 1:10 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
While I don't agree with capping the number of photos, I do like the idea of grouping a user's submitted content together. It would make navigating the entries easier when multiple explorers have made multiple trips to a site.

Making the exploration stories a bigger focus is also a good idea.

As for control of content, I don't really see a problem with the current system. People shouldn't be able to basicly take their toys and leave every time they get pissed off. That kind of defeats the point of a public database.

'Dukes 

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Re: Recommendations for Improving the Location Database
<Reply # 2 on 4/6/2006 1:36 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Kowalski, I appreciate the amount of thought you have put into your comments, although it was like reading a friggin legal disclaimer. However, most of the popular sites are already widely known. The ones that aren't ? That's the fault of the person who decided to give it away.

Content? Modify to your hearts content brother.

I am startled to learn of vast array of locations that are told through the ages that not one individual has chronicled? Should not that "portend a fortuitous ending for this most heinuous of internet misfortunes otherwise appelled the "location database?"

Pretty good rendition of you eh? If it was me I coulda summed things up by saying "Fuckin eh".

The other problem most have is with quality.
But that argument defeats the first; it's like the anti gun lobby saying that Smith and Wesson just doesn't have the fit and finish of a Glock, so it must be banned.

The whole thing is a convoluted mess, and my assessment is that you people like to have something to talk about before you go to the Star Wars convention. I think its a non issue; it's a website, keep your shit private if you don't want it fucked with; the larger stuff, someone has almost with one hundred percent certainty ALREADY fucked with it. Once again it's about bruised egos; "Joe thirteen your old can't post that....Because I put it on my art fag website and I'm Joe cool explorer and how will my t shirts sell if the kid has it on UER". End of story.


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Re: Recommendations for Improving the Location Database
<Reply # 3 on 4/6/2006 3:40 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by kowalski

De-emphasize or eliminate the fielded information that currently occupies the front of the entry page.


Modify the Stories feature, and elevate this content to the front page of each entry.


i agree about these two, especially making the story essential to the experience in which many sites like ltv and actionsquad have done so successfully and have been able to capture the wonder and essence of exploration. It will also discourage the 3 night shot locations that have no real tale of what happened since the user is sloppily putting crap online in the first place. It will at the very least make users think about why their experience was an exploration

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Re: Recommendations for Improving the Location Database
<Reply # 4 on 4/6/2006 5:00 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I agree with pretty much all of kowalski's post. I see it as a relativly simple change (from a technical point of view) that would drastically change the emphasis of the DB. Instead of being about as many photos as possible and statistical information, it would be about the story.

-av

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Stewie 


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Re: Recommendations for Improving the Location Database
<Reply # 5 on 4/6/2006 5:01 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I can't say I disagree with any of the points Kowalski has brought to the table.

> The hierarchy of power dictates that the person with the most power does the least amount of work and retains the highest benefit.
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Re: Recommendations for Improving the Location Database
<Reply # 6 on 4/6/2006 6:26 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
A picture can tell 1000 words, but only up to a certain point. You need a good write up to complement good photos.

I'm in agreement with what Kowalski has proposed with the LDB. Doesn't destroy like some want, but gives it a much-needed change that can perhaps help to unify some of the factions that keep fighting over it's use.

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Re: Recommendations for Improving the Location Database
<Reply # 7 on 4/6/2006 8:08 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I think the changes seem like a very good idea. I back pretty much everything Kowalski said and I can't even see the whole DB...

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Re: Recommendations for Improving the Location Database
<Reply # 8 on 4/6/2006 10:55 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I think it might actually be a good idea to take number 3 iii to an extreme level. maybe put a very small limit on photos. when you write a story for a news paper or magizine you usually dont include very many photos to begin with.

maybe we could limit it to 5 and allow the user to implant the photos into the story with a description under each, just like a normal story in a magizine.

Then if the user still wishes to host a larger gallery of pictures thay can be hosted externally and linked to at the bottom of each story. There are plenty of places that do free image hosting.

-bob
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parallax 


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Re: Recommendations for Improving the Location Database
<Reply # 9 on 4/6/2006 11:10 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I don't personally like the LDB because I find it a bit sterile. Too many photos, not very well written entries and an array of pretty shit locations.

But I really like what Kawolksi is suggesting, especially the story idea. I think a perfect example of what he is suggesting would be Siologens Drain Of The Week posts. Check them out here on UER, Deggi5 or at www.sydneycaveclan.org under articles.

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Re: Recommendations for Improving the Location Database
<Reply # 10 on 4/6/2006 11:25 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by parallax
I don't personally like the LDB because I find it a bit sterile. Too many photos, not very well written entries and an array of pretty shit locations.



That's the problem though with changing it to a story based DB.

I personally am not a good writer. And I'm sure most people on here are not as well. It's not easy, to write and write, but it does make sense that there needs to be more of a feel to the DB. And stories would be a good way to go, we do have them in there, and if they're there I do read them.

Would there be any other alternatives?

"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." - Richard Cook
kowalski 






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Re: Recommendations for Improving the Location Database
<Reply # 11 on 4/6/2006 12:59 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Anyone can write decently if they put the effort into it. If this means you need to spend an extra hour working on a location before you post it, I can't imagine that being anything other than a good thing.

Regardless, most of the people posting photos to the database aren't very good photographers. If we want to evaluate it based on people's strengths, I don't think it plays any better to those now than it would if it is switched over to a story-centric format. The difference is that people can generate bad photographs without any significant thought and effort. Even mediocre writing requires some thought, which again, when tied into making entries in the database, can only be a good thing.

I hope what we'll find, though, is that once everyone has to write in it, a lot more people will find that if they put in the effort they can write decently, and that they can relate their experiences a lot more fully and fulfillingly than they can through pictures and pointform alone. That's a discovery that I think the LDB has been shortcircuiting for a fair number of its contributors.

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Re: Recommendations for Improving the Location Database
<Reply # 12 on 4/6/2006 12:59 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by 'Dukes
Once again it's about bruised egos; "Joe thirteen your old can't post that....Because I put it on my art fag website and I'm Joe cool explorer and how will my t shirts sell if the kid has it on UER". End of story.

Thank you 'Dukes, for entirely not getting the point. We can always count on you for things to go sailing way over your head.

I actually read Kowalski's post, and for the most part I think he's talking about changing the emphasis of the gallery from the boring, nitty gritty details to the experience - a fundamental shift back to what UER was like 2 or more years ago.

C.

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Re: Recommendations for Improving the Location Database
<Reply # 13 on 4/6/2006 1:09 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I like the idea of limiting the number of photos in one gallery. Not only will this allow for future explorers to present their vision of a location in a potentially more unique fashion, but it will also make rating a site easier.

And for the love of god, can we please eliminate "scouting" entries with no interior shots? Generally speaking, all they seem to accomplish is to bookmark the site for future credit when someone else gets inside first. I don't care that some factory, shack or drain was locked up tight in 2004 and "I'll be back real soon to check out the inside!" (which, of course, the author never did).

kowalski: Your recommendations I think would make for a stronger LDB. Question: When you refer to emphasizing the stories, are you thinking more the story of the site or the story of the exploration? I ask because there are a lot of sites out there with not much of a story (Drains, respectfully, come to mind. As do a lot of residential houses).

"Great architecture has only two natural enemies: water and stupid men." - Richard Nickel
kowalski 






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Re: Recommendations for Improving the Location Database
<Reply # 14 on 4/6/2006 1:29 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I'm thinking about whatever the contributing author wants to emphasize, and I think in a lot of cases those two approaches can coexist really well. Let's combine historical research with what we find at the site today. Even with houses, I think that there's a lot more that can be done with them, and hopefully in an early issue of liminal city we're going to show how that's possible.

But definitely, as Crossfire says, let's encourage LDB contributors to be more experiential with their recordings. Where there's a factual history available, let's have that too, but where it's not available, let's read the explorer's inferences, their guesses, their perceptions of history.

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Re: Recommendations for Improving the Location Database
<Reply # 15 on 4/6/2006 1:46 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by kowalski
Anyone can write decently if they put the effort into it. If this means you need to spend an extra hour working on a location before you post it, I can't imagine that being anything other than a good thing.


Heh, no.

I am not a good writer. When it comes down to it. The only thing I was ever good at, and I was really god at it, was writing technical manuals. Very dry, very boring stuff. I do express more, and do believe I'm alright at it and improving, through my photography. If I had to sit down for an hour, I might get a paragraph or two.

"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." - Richard Cook
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Re: Recommendations for Improving the Location Database
<Reply # 16 on 4/6/2006 1:53 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Sounds good.

Posted by kowalski
I'm thinking about whatever the contributing author wants to emphasize, and I think in a lot of cases those two approaches can coexist really well. Let's combine historical research with what we find at the site today. Even with houses, I think that there's a lot more that can be done with them, and hopefully in an early issue of liminal city we're going to show how that's possible.

But definitely, as Crossfire says, let's encourage LDB contributors to be more experiential with their recordings. Where there's a factual history available, let's have that too, but where it's not available, let's read the explorer's inferences, their guesses, their perceptions of history.




"Great architecture has only two natural enemies: water and stupid men." - Richard Nickel
atomx 


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Re: Recommendations for Improving the Location Database
<Reply # 17 on 4/6/2006 1:56 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by kowalski
I'm thinking about whatever the contributing author wants to emphasize,
...
let's read the explorer's inferences, their guesses, their perceptions of history.


I do agree here.

"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." - Richard Cook
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Re: Recommendations for Improving the Location Database
<Reply # 18 on 4/6/2006 3:15 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I too like the idea of limiting the number of photos people can submit. Forcing people to edit themselves also encourages them to *think* about what makes a place unique and noteworthy. It also leaves more to people's imagination and doesn't ruin all the surprises if someone decides to visit a place on their own at a later date. I find it's when there's an element of discovery and surprise that this hobby becomes most enjoyable. Witnessing 100 photos of a location (good or bad) beforehand has a habit of diminishing the overall exploration experience somewhat.

I'd also suggest removing the "coolness" rating system altogether, which is too often laughably unreliable and overly dependent on people who have never actually been to the location. It also discourages people from further exploring places that, for whatever reason (most likely because the pictures suck shit) have been deemed "uncool." Quite often the low-ranked locations turn out to be *really* cool when someone who has more time or initiative actually digs a little deeper.

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Re: Recommendations for Improving the Location Database
<Reply # 19 on 4/6/2006 3:22 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
One big thing I think would be helpful is sorting the locations based on type... I know a fair bit of people can't stand looking at houses, but love military installations, or they love looking at office buildings. I wish there was a better way to organize these, and sort them.

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UER Forum > Archived Old Forum Issues > Recommendations for Improving the Location Database (Viewed 765 times)
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