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2024-05-08 09:44:28
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 Ca53
Location: Seattle
Gender: Male
 |  |  | Ethical Question
< on 10/13/2003 1:07 AM >
|  | | | Do you believe that it is unethical to force/pick/cut a lock to get into a site? I'm currently faced with this problem, as a tunnel site my team has been scouting is secured with rusty padlocks at all entrance points. What do you guys think? Is it okay to force one?
~Team 107~ |
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Jester
 
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| |  | Re: Ethical Question
<Reply # 1 on 10/13/2003 1:18 AM >
|  | | | My personal stance is that if I can seal it as it was before I got there, then it is fair game. If not, then I won't do it...
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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DSM2nr203
Location: Saratoga Springs, NY
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Ethical Question
<Reply # 2 on 10/13/2003 2:33 AM >
|  | | | I dunno. They obviously dont want you in there, but they cant care too much or theyd replace the locks. Personally, if your not planning on stealing anything or vandalizing the place I dont see a problem with it. The only problem would be if other people got in cuz you cut the lock or something and vandalizeds the place..
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Ricotta
 
Nobler Donor
Location: Houston, TX
Gender: Male
De arimasu~
| | Re: Ethical Question
<Reply # 3 on 10/13/2003 2:49 AM >
| | | | Replace the lock with one of your own.
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A Casual Fellow
I don't like UER.
Location: New York City
| | Re: Ethical Question
<Reply # 4 on 10/13/2003 3:06 AM >
| | | | Break it.
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Ethical Question
<Reply # 5 on 10/13/2003 3:22 AM >
| | | | Posted by A Casual Fellow
Break it.
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And leave it open for vandals and whoever else ? I thought this was an ethical question... not a lack of ethics question...
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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MacGyver
Location: St Paul, Minnesota
Gender: Male
"Someone go find me a paperclip, a D-cell battery, and a cheese grater"
| | Re: Ethical Question
<Reply # 6 on 10/13/2003 3:26 AM >
| | | | If the lock was so rusty that it had obviously not been used in years (keyhole rusted shut, etc.) and couldn't be used again even if they wated to, then they would have to cut it off anyways to get in. If you were a respectful explorer you would make sure the site stayed off-limits to taggers, smashers, arsonists, terr0r15ts, etc. I personally would weigh the value of what's probably inside against how you feel about cutting the lock. If you do, absolutely replace it with one of your own that is at least as strong as the existing lock to keep unwanted types out.
Like a fiend with his dope / a drunkard his wine / a man will have lust for the lure of the mine
"If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent." |
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Ca53
Location: Seattle
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Ethical Question
<Reply # 7 on 10/13/2003 3:37 AM >
| | | | Thanks guys. I'm gonna go look at it again, and if the key hole is rusted over, I'll pop it and put a new one on when we are finished.
~Team 107~ |
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Ricotta
Nobler Donor
Location: Houston, TX
Gender: Male
De arimasu~
| | Re: Ethical Question
<Reply # 8 on 10/13/2003 3:43 AM >
| | | | Make sure to keep the keys.
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A Casual Fellow
I don't like UER.
Location: New York City
| | Re: Ethical Question
<Reply # 9 on 10/13/2003 6:04 AM >
| | | | Posted by Jester
Posted by A Casual Fellow
Break it.
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And leave it open for vandals and whoever else ? I thought this was an ethical question... not a lack of ethics question...
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If this is so ethical, and the property is forbidden, meaning that going in is trespassing- then why go in the first place? What makes you think that somehow, you are authorized to go in, but not others, regardless of whatever their agenda may be? Is that not arrogant?
You are breaking the law by going in, and yet you also declare the property off-limits and forbidden to others?
Look, it doesn't matter if you consider vandalism just "graffiti" or breaking windows needlessly. Breaking a lock is also vandalism, even if it's going to be replaced.
[last edit 10/13/2003 6:05 AM by A Casual Fellow - edited 1 times]
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Freak
 
Location: Usually Alaska, now MSP.
Gender: Male
Hypocrite
| | | Re: Ethical Question
<Reply # 10 on 10/13/2003 8:29 AM >
| | | | Posted by ACF
You are breaking the law by going in, and yet you also declare the property off-limits and forbidden to others?
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Consider this: you break the lock, explore, and leave. A few days later, little johnny and his 8 year old friends find the entrance open, go in, and fall down a shaft or bring down the ceiling on themselves. Re-sealing the place after you won't keep vandals or other explorers out (although if the next group sees your lock they'll think the site is active and might not feel as ready to cut it), but it will keep out children and casual explorers who could be injured or killed essentially because you let them in.
Turn off the internet and go play outside.
http://spamusement...hp/comics/view/137 |
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Shane
Moderator
Location: Bronx, NY
Gender: Male
| |  |  | | | Re: Ethical Question
<Reply # 11 on 10/13/2003 9:47 AM >
| | | | Posted by ACF
You are breaking the law by going in, and yet you also declare the property off-limits and forbidden to others?
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He's not declaring the property off-limits and forbidden to others, the owners did that, he's just putting it back the way he found it(or as close to that as possible). Also, who is he to say that anyone who wishes can go visit the site by cutting off the lock and leaving it that way? The lock won't keep out anyone determined, but it will keep out the casual passerby who might notice if it was open and decide to wander in.
"Because there's no possibility of real disaster, real risk, we're left with no chance for real salvation. Real elation. Real excitement. Joy. Discovery. Invention. The laws that keep us safe, these same laws condemn us to boredom. Without access to true chaos, we'll never have true peace. Unless everything can get worse, it won't get any better." -Chuck Palahniuk |
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NoSuchPerson
Stop, or I'll ask you again!
| | Re: Ethical Question
<Reply # 12 on 10/13/2003 11:41 AM >
| | | | Try and find out who owns the proerty, and find their address. Chop the lock, put on one of your own, and mail them the keys....hehe
-Ex
Unit calling radio say again? |
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RevSM
Location: South Central Texas
| | | Re: Ethical Question
<Reply # 13 on 10/13/2003 2:36 PM >
| | | | Posted by ExKa|iBuR
Try and find out who owns the proerty, and find their address. Chop the lock, put on one of your own, and mail them the keys....hehe
-Ex
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Nice, haven't heard that one before. They'll probably replace it and keep you from getting back in but I think it's the most ethical suggestion yet.
Tetanus for Breakfast!
http://www.shatteredshutter.com |
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A Casual Fellow
I don't like UER.
Location: New York City
| | Re: Ethical Question
<Reply # 14 on 10/13/2003 4:25 PM >
| | | | Posted by Freak
Posted by ACF
You are breaking the law by going in, and yet you also declare the property off-limits and forbidden to others?
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Consider this: you break the lock, explore, and leave. A few days later, little johnny and his 8 year old friends find the entrance open, go in, and fall down a shaft or bring down the ceiling on themselves. Re-sealing the place after you won't keep vandals or other explorers out (although if the next group sees your lock they'll think the site is active and might not feel as ready to cut it), but it will keep out children and casual explorers who could be injured or killed essentially because you let them in.
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The point is, you're trying too hard to adorn or even I dare say, justify yourselves with a loose code of ethics. It does make you look good to declare that you're concerned about others getting hurt, doesn't it? You are breaking the law- both by breaking the lock and trespassing... I have no problem with that but I'm trying to shatter this disillusion here that these things are justifiable just because no harm is done. A lot of harm can possibly be done no matter how skillful you may be in sneaking or whatever- chaotic things can and will occur. A brick might just drop on your head, and the owner could get in trouble for that. Or, a police officer could see you go in, and it being his/her job to catch trespassers- put him/herself in danger by going inside the decrepit building as well.
Breaking in is not justifiable with anything. It's wrong, and we do it anyway. Nothing "ethical" about it.
Anyway, look- the property was obviously established off limits by someone of a higher authority than you (the owner, the government, etc.) They most certainly have their reasons, most presumably physical danger. In their judgement, you would get hurt if you go in there. In your judgement, little Johnny and his friends would get hurt in there. See, like you, the property owner finds you wreckless and prone to injury- just as you see the children, and you are. Whose to say that you won't get injured in there?
However- you went in there willingly. And so will anyone else who will be going in there. Little Johnny and his friends will be going willingly as well, so will anyone else who will be going in there. No one can accidently get into a building, and then injure themselves. That's just unlikely if not impossible.
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Ethical Question
<Reply # 15 on 10/13/2003 4:48 PM >
| | | | No, as I said, if it can't be sealed up as it was, then I see it as unethical. The point of it being that I'm not going to leave a place so that
1. any jackass walking by can go in and vandalize/steal
2. have some kid stumble in thinking it looks cool, and get hurt
There are varying degrees to the ethical choices obviously, but I draw my line at that. Yes it's wrong to go places we're not supposed to, brilliant deduction Sherlock... But if you go there, break the lock and leave the place wide open, you aren't showing any ethics. We can go places and still excercise certain respect for the places as well as others.
You think if you break the lock and leave it open and a 9 year old kid walks in (cause young kids are curious and don't know fully whats safe and what isn't) and gets injured bad or dies that that wasn't your fault ? If thats the kind of "ethics" you have, then you're a waste of skin and i'm sorry to be part of the same species as you.
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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A Casual Fellow
I don't like UER.
Location: New York City
| | Re: Ethical Question
<Reply # 16 on 10/13/2003 5:05 PM >
| | | | Posted by Jester
No, as I said, if it can't be sealed up as it was, then I see it as unethical. The point of it being that I'm not going to leave a place so that
1. any jackass walking by can go in and vandalize/steal
2. have some kid stumble in thinking it looks cool, and get hurt
There are varying degrees to the ethical choices obviously, but I draw my line at that. Yes it's wrong to go places we're not supposed to, brilliant deduction Sherlock... But if you go there, break the lock and leave the place wide open, you aren't showing any ethics. We can go places and still excercise certain respect for the places as well as others.
You think if you break the lock and leave it open and a 9 year old kid walks in (cause young kids are curious and don't know fully whats safe and what isn't) and gets injured bad or dies that that wasn't your fault ? If thats the kind of "ethics" you have, then you're a waste of skin and i'm sorry to be part of the same species as you.
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Given the circumstances in the first post of this thread, conditions were given and that was that it would be "unethical" if the entry could not be sealed back up. I know very well why you why to keep others out.
I'm only stating that trespassing is wrong because it seems like it justifiable just because you're sealing the place back up, and oh no harm done.
Please read my previous post again. You've skipped certain points. Although you seem to be taking this as some sort of argument more than a discussion, so I don't know if you're going to be able to comprehend or want to accept what I'm conveying. Whatever, I don't wish to get dragged into a mindless argument and I'm not going to get all aggressive just because I was criticized.
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MacGyver
Location: St Paul, Minnesota
Gender: Male
"Someone go find me a paperclip, a D-cell battery, and a cheese grater"
| | Re: Ethical Question
<Reply # 17 on 10/13/2003 5:34 PM >
| | | | Gary:
Obviously, the owner of the property has placed the area "off-limits" by padlocking the door/gate/whatever shut. We all realize that and you can stop restating it.
Cutting the padlock off is illegal. So is a hell of a lot (most, actually) of the other things discussed on this site. Trespassing within the structure is also illegal, but I would do it, given the chance, because I am a curious bastard and also feel responsible enough to fend for myself in the situation. A brick may indeed fall on my head or something. I'm fully aware of the risks involved and decide to go forth anyways.
I do place myself on a higher ethical level than many of the people that would probably enter if the door was unsecured. I wouldn't be smashing things, lighting the place on fire, spraypainting my name all over the place, stealing stuff, etc. This is the reason for putting another lock on the door when you leave. It keeps the people that would trash the place out and, in some cases, keeps the rightful authorities from freaking out for a lot longer. (they don't see a missing lock and don't figure out what's up until their key doesn't work, which wouldn't be an issue if the lock hadn't been used in 20 years and was rusted to all fuck.)
Do you understand better now, or do you want to keep discussing?
[last edit 10/13/2003 5:36 PM by MacGyver - edited 1 times]
Like a fiend with his dope / a drunkard his wine / a man will have lust for the lure of the mine
"If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent." |
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Ethical Question
<Reply # 18 on 10/13/2003 5:59 PM >
| | | | ACF
Oh, I read and understood your post just fine, thanks.
If you can look at the big picture of how trespassing is wrong to begin with, then I am just as justified with looking at the big picture of what can be the results of breaking the lock... If you're going to consider the ethics of doing it, then you must consider the ethics of what you've now made possible. It's not so much about the lock itself, it's about what happens after.
I don't think breaking the lock is acceptable. But if it can be opened and replaced, then there has been no change to the place and no danger left by you... To me, thats the ethics in questions here.
I'll apologize for caring about innocent people then if that's offensive to your sensibilities...
This ethics discussion has played out many times, and really it's simple. There will be no agreement by everyone. So post what you want, tell me I don't understand, and leave everything open everywhere you go...
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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MacGyver
Location: St Paul, Minnesota
Gender: Male
"Someone go find me a paperclip, a D-cell battery, and a cheese grater"
| | Re: Ethical Question
<Reply # 19 on 10/13/2003 6:04 PM >
| | | | Isn't it also unethical to bypass obvious signage and jump down into a subway tunnel, then proceed to run down the tunnel and hit the dirt (mayube poo?) when a train passes? You could get hit by a train! (or maybe a brick could also fall on your head)
What I speak of is supposedly authored and participaded in by yourself and documented cheezily online here: http://expeditionnyc.web1000.com/garyirtcityhall.htm
Like a fiend with his dope / a drunkard his wine / a man will have lust for the lure of the mine
"If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent." |
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