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UER Forum > Archived UE Main > veteran's hospitals (Viewed 169 times) Caput_58  Location: Virginia, USA Gender: Male  |  |  veteran's hospitals < on 10/7/2003 2:58 AM >   I had an hour to kill today and decided to scout out my local VA hospital. A quick drive around revealed no promising semi-abandoned buildings, but I decided to walk around and take a few pictures anyway. The buildings appear to date from the 20's, ringing a central area, with above ground brick connecting tunnels that give the place a fortress like atmosphere. I was about to pass through on of the few entrances to the courtyard area when a police car drove out. I foolishly decided to demonstrate my harmlessness by taking a picture of a building. *mistake*. Apparently the police force of the veterans administration takes this sort of rampant photographic crime very seriously. After establishing that I did not have a permit to take pictures, I was told that they would have to confiscate my camera. My camera equipment is rapidly eclipsing my 1992 Nissan in value, so I was stronly against this plan of action. We eventually compromised on me deleting all my pictures, recording my identification information, getting frisked, and getting escorted back to my vehicle via backseat of the police car. At this point I'd established a pretty friendly repoir with the cops by sticking to my naive photographer ruse (which is accurate). Note that there were two cops, as obviously you'd be crazy to patrol a veteran's hospital alone. Anyway, we spent a few more minutes chatting innocently, while the lead cop peered into my car and asked about items she saw in it. She correctly identified a helmet (for caving), and jumper cables. She missed the partial face respirator in plain site, as well as the case of lock picks. It also later occured to me that storing a pistol under my seat may be inadvisable. I gotta admit, I felt totally ambushed by having a casual scouting trip turn into such a big deal. I really didn't have my story ready, nor was my car properly sanitized. If she'd asked about why I had a respirator in my car, I doubt I would have had the presence of mind to tell her it was for painting. I was also uncomfortable not knowing my rights in this situation. I was honestly surprised that there was a law against taking pictures of a hospital, especially given the lack of signs warning of any special military or federal laws. I'm still not sure if military law would have applied, though it seems like some sort of lack of probable cause kept them from searching my car. Anyway, lessons learned: 1. Not being fully prepared: BAD 2. Window tinting: GOOD Caput_58 Ben  Noble Donor Location: Mojave Desert Gender: Male  |  |  Re: veteran's hospitals <Reply # 1 on 10/7/2003 4:14 AM >   So what were the laws under which they were operating? I've been planning to do some hospital tunnels, so it would be useful information. Caput_58  Location: Virginia, USA Gender: Male  |  |  Re: veteran's hospitals <Reply # 2 on 10/7/2003 4:22 AM >   Didn't get around to asking, at this point I'm guessing the 'no pictures' rule must be a federal law, being applied by officers who really don't have much else to do. I was also amused to see that the patrol car was "Unit 1", and that they communicated with dispatch. You really have to marvel at a dispatch center that coordinates a grand total of one patrol cars. Caput_58 Shane  Moderator Location: Bronx, NY Gender: Male  |  |  |  |  |  Re: veteran's hospitals <Reply # 3 on 10/7/2003 5:35 AM >   I think in this situation the officers were in the wrong, and you had the upper hand legally. There is no real law that says you can't take a picture (with the exception of parts of a military base deemed to be crucial to national security by the base commander). This holds especially true if you are on public land. There really is nothing they can legally do. In reality, you can even take pictures inside of a place and still not be guilty of a crime. There are certain catches to it though. If you are asked to leave and you do not, you will be guilty of tresspassing. Also these things only apply to TAKING pictures, if you publish a picture(including posting it to the internet) taken on private property you may face legal consequences having to do with copyright and laws. Basically as long as you are taking pictures for personal use from public land you are in the clear legally. Actually, if someone demands to take your film and/or camera and continues to bother you they may be guilty of several crimes including harrassment, theft, and coercion. Police may take your film/camera, but that only applies if you are being arrested or it is evidence of a crime. Check this site out for a bit more info: http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm "Because there's no possibility of real disaster, real risk, we're left with no chance for real salvation. Real elation. Real excitement. Joy. Discovery. Invention. The laws that keep us safe, these same laws condemn us to boredom. Without access to true chaos, we'll never have true peace. Unless everything can get worse, it won't get any better." -Chuck Palahniuk IUSSA  This member has been banned  |  Re: veteran's hospitals <Reply # 4 on 10/7/2003 1:16 PM >   Cops can ask you to do anything they want you to do, you have the right to say no. You have the right to say no to being frisked, they will do it anyway, but make sure if you don't want it done that you say so if any legal action results. Same with your car, they can ask, you can say no, they can do it anyway, but at least you're covered on your end by expressing that you do not agree. You do not have to give your ID unless you are being put under arrest (maybe not even then, what are they gonna do, arrest you?). You do not need to answer any questions, of course answering falsly and giving a fake name may be illegal, and certainly wouldn't help you with any resulting legal action. The exeptions that I know of are if you are in a vehicle, EVERYONE in the vehicle must show ID if asked by an officer . . not sure about any particular laws against photography. if a target isnt marked "no trespassing" its safe to assume the property owner has given permission to legally be there unless asked to leave. Chuck  Location: Chicago Gender: Male  |  |  Re: veteran's hospitals <Reply # 5 on 10/7/2003 1:22 PM >   Print out the flyer at the site listed above and carry it with you. I do, and it works!! Also check out this page, wich has links to the above: http://freedomtophotograph.com/ Chuck Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands. - Clint Eastwood Servo   |  Re: veteran's hospitals <Reply # 6 on 10/7/2003 4:56 PM >   Yikes, Caput. I didn't realize there were any laws anywhere against taking pictures. The laws for most of the EM spectrum (radio, etc) say that it's always legal to receive a signal; why should it be any different for visible light? Sounds like you may have just gotten some really anal cops that were trying to enforce laws in the class of "It's illegal to sit in a trash can on a Sunday night" (yes, around here, that is an actual law). Edit for speling. [last edit 10/8/2003 3:41 AM by Servo - edited 1 times] Caput_58  Location: Virginia, USA Gender: Male  |  |  Re: veteran's hospitals <Reply # 7 on 10/7/2003 5:43 PM >   I knew at the time that they had no right to demand my ID or frisk me, but since I was unsure about the confiscation of my camera, I decided to play nice. They played nice in return, so things ended happily. A little internet research shows that surprisingly, the patriot act says nothing about photography. I also found a few stories of other photographers being detained and losing their film after photographing federal buildings. I'm sure that if you're on federal property, and they post clearly that you can't take pictures, you are subject to having your film seized if you break that rule. The question is, are you subject to it if its NOT clearly posted? Another possibility is this falls under a healthcare privacy law. Taking pictures on hospital grounds may constitute an invasion of patient's privacy. I look into it a bit more when I don't have an anatomy test to study for. Caput_58 Mr. Motts  Noble Donor Location: Long Island and Brooklyn NY Gender: Male  |  |  Re: veteran's hospitals <Reply # 8 on 10/7/2003 7:42 PM >   Posted by Caput_58 Another possibility is this falls under a healthcare privacy law. Taking pictures on hospital grounds may constitute an invasion of patient's privacy. I remember getting told something of the sort by a cop, because ONE building was still being used. He mentioned it, I apologized, end of story. I never looked into it, he coulda been bullshitting, but it does seem like a possible gray area - like its illegal to photograph a private residence, right? Is photographing an abandoned building different than an occupied one? I just assumed it was illegal to photograph where it is posted not to, like govt. buildings, bridges and such until this came up. Save the planet... kill yourself. http://www.opacity.us/ - Abandoned Photography Greenline  Location: Washington D.C. metro area Gender: Male  |  |  |  Re: veteran's hospitals <Reply # 9 on 10/7/2003 10:42 PM >   the photographer rights brochure posted earlier in this thread clears alot of it up. Basicly it boils down to this: If you are standing on public property, you have a right to photograph anything that you can see. A property owner can prohibit you from photographing his house only if you are doing so while on his property. But if you are standing in the middle of a public street, the property owner cannot stop you. The medical confidentiality issue is an interesting aspect, but I do not think it would hold up in court. Especially if the building you are photographing is visible from a public space. Nascent City UE: Detegerens Urbem www.nascentcity.diary-x.com Steam Powered Sketch Comedy Morphiend  Location: Ghetropolis, the Paris of the Midwest Gender: Male  |  |  Re: veteran's hospitals <Reply # 10 on 10/9/2003 4:31 AM >   Okay, this isn't 100% clear. Were you photographing from a public right of way or were you on the hospital grounds? If on the grounds, you were trespassing on federal property and it could've really ruined your day. I can't see why they would care if you were working from the city street, but in these times of high security alerts the authorities are jumpy about people photographing official buildings. I know of many instances in my own town where people have been hassled for innocently photographing around federal buildings and the international border crossings. Now as for all that crap you had in your car, I only have one question: were you trying to get arrested? Burglary tools, a concealed gun...all things that could get you in deep trouble in most states. I don't know what the laws are in Virginia, and I suspect that the firearms regulations may be relatively lax considering that your state is supplying the northeast corridor with weapons, but in most jurisdictions that can lead to big trouble. I suggest you store that crap in the trunk, or better yet, leave it home. Caput_58  Location: Virginia, USA Gender: Male  |  |  Re: veteran's hospitals <Reply # 11 on 10/9/2003 3:22 PM >   Posted by Morphiend Okay, this isn't 100% clear. Were you photographing from a public right of way or were you on the hospital grounds? If on the grounds, you were trespassing on federal property and it could've really ruined your day. Yes, I was on federal property, which is entirely different from taking pictures from public property. But, this isn't Groom Lake. There aren't any fences, no tresspassing signs, or even a 'no photography' sign. This is a hospital which treats retired military personal, and is open to visitors. I confess ignorance about the exact nature of the law in this situation, but its similiar to most state laws on tresspassing, ie, you must first be warned verbally, or in writing, not to tresspass, before it becomes a criminal offense. Posted by Morphiend Now as for all that crap you had in your car, I only have one question: were you trying to get arrested? Burglary tools, a concealed gun...all things that could get you in deep trouble in most states. I don't know what the laws are in Virginia, and I suspect that the firearms regulations may be relatively lax considering that your state is supplying the northeast corridor with weapons, but in most jurisdictions that can lead to big trouble. I don't know if you actually read all of my first message, but that was kind of my point. I let myself get surprised and was caught unprepared, though I think the item most likely to get me into trouble was the completely legal respirator. I don't keep the gun in my car because I have any idea on using it for self defense, nor would I think of taking it during a UE trip. I simply have an apartment that is never locked, and it would be irresponsible to leave it laying around there unsecured. I'm fairly positive that it doesn't count as a 'concealed weapon' unless its on your person. I can't speak for the laws where your from, but in virginia, we are allowed to transport firearms in our cars, rather than walking them from place to place. I do agree with you that the laws of virginia have made it incredibly easy for criminals to get guns. Posted by Morphiend I suggest you store that crap in the trunk, or better yet, leave it home. Trust me, as soon as I find the trunk on my pathfinder, I'll move all that crap there. Caput_58 DarkTreader  Gender: Male  |  Re: veteran's hospitals <Reply # 12 on 10/9/2003 4:44 PM >   Ehh... I wouldn't be so sure about those concealed weapons laws regarding the gun in your car. If memory serves, unless you have the gun in the trunk or some other place where an occupant of the car can not get it, its gotta be in a locked case. At least, that's my take on the law that I've read... this may be only for transporting firearms across state lines though. Oh, and I've been tempted to hit my local VA for the tunnel systems there... I guess 1) since my dad works there, he'd get in deep shit if I were caught, and 2) I don't think I'd be all that kewl with a federal trespassing fine. footsteps light, flashlights bright -~ DT Losers go home... winners go home and fuck the prom queen Servo   |  Re: veteran's hospitals <Reply # 13 on 10/9/2003 5:21 PM >   The laws vary from state to state. In Alabama (where it is technically still legal to open carry a gun anywhere you want, although I think you might not get very far doing that...) you must have the gun and the ammunition separated while in the car. At least handguns must be kept in a locked box not in reach of the driver, in a trunk or "compartment other than the driver's cab" or something like that. For long guns the laws are a bit more lax; you don't have to keep them locked but they do have to be unloaded (which makes sense anyway). And recently, I think they've changed the law saying that you have to have a current CCW permit to transport a handgun, in your car, on your person, etc. Try www.packing.org; they have the laws by state. [last edit 10/9/2003 5:21 PM by Servo - edited 1 times] Morphiend  Location: Ghetropolis, the Paris of the Midwest Gender: Male  |  |  Re: veteran's hospitals <Reply # 14 on 10/9/2003 5:22 PM >   I think that gun laws vary quite a bit from state to state. I only owned a gun (revolver) once, in New Mexico, and the policy there was that you could transport in the passenger compartment as long as it was unloaded and in plain view and away from the ammunition. I'm sure that Virginia has it's own laws. It's probably worth your time to find out what they are, or apply for a concealed weapon permit. People are generally under the assumption that hospitals are public places (one reason that they are a favorite hangout for homeless and insane people in urban areas), but they are private property. Because of the nature of the business, the fact that they receive many visitors and patients daily, you will be left alone if you don't cause trouble or draw attention to yourself. But the fact is that they are private and if you are hanging out there for no legitimate reason you are trespassing. Normally I wouldn't expect anything more than a warning and to be escorted off the campus. However, in the case of a semi-abandoned federal facility, there are other considerations. Low traffic volume makes for more vulnerability to mischief and more suspicion directed at visitors. And that whole trespassing on federal property issue sounds like it has potential to get deeper than you want to be. Gasmask/respirator? Probably perfectly legal but suspicious. I can't blame a cop for wondering what the hell you need that for. Your story reminded me of a huge VA hospital complex in the Detroit downriver area, I think in Allen Park. They built a new hospital in the city and as far as I know the old one is abandoned. It was a huge campus. I think I'll leave it alone. There's enough cool shit in the city that nobody cares about. No need to risk my ass. [last edit 10/10/2003 3:25 AM by Morphiend - edited 1 times] UER Forum > Archived UE Main > veteran's hospitals (Viewed 169 times) All content and images copyright © 2002-2024 UER.CA and respective creators. Graphical Design by Crossfire. To contact webmaster, or click to email with problems or other questions about this site: UER CONTACT View Terms of Service | View Privacy Policy | Server colocation provided by Beanfield This page was generated for you in 92 milliseconds. Since June 23, 2002, a total of 741888493 pages have been generated.