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UER Store
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sweet UER decals:
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 Stochastic Probability
  
Location: Barrie
Gender: Male
Yeah, well, keep it down, okay?
 |  |  | Re: User Rating / Voting
<Reply # 60 on 10/2/2003 5:30 AM >
|  | | | Hm. Interesting idea. I would also agree with changing the *cough* syntax *cough* to "useful"; whether a post is liked or not, it still may contain relevant information.
Some forums I've seen run on a weighted average; elminates newbies/idiots coming in and slagging people for no reason. eg, only people with a x-rating (kinky) or higher can vote, or people who have been members for x-time.
Anyhoo, I think we should give'r a shot and see. I'll probably still end up going by name than rating for quality. What I find useful or like may be completely different then what others enjoy.
Edit: I also agree with not counting posts in the other category towards the total, as people tend to get silly there, and it seems unfair to have that affect your rating. Meh.
And also (not too much ranting here or anything), but how bout adding a rate thread field overall, instead of relying on the ratings of the posts inside the thread? Just a thought.
Edit: spelling
[last edit 10/2/2003 7:06 AM by Stochastic Probability - edited 2 times]
"People say that you'll die
faster than without water,
but we know it's just a lie,
scare your son, scare your daughter" |
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Servo
 
| | Re: User Rating / Voting
<Reply # 61 on 10/2/2003 5:35 AM >
| | | | I'm going to weigh in here.
A voting system is not the best thing if you want free exchange of ideas. People will start worrying more about getting a good rating (meaning they'll just post whatever the popular opinion seems to be) than actually exchanging ideas, having debates, etc. If I'm having to second-guess the content of all my posts so I'm worrying about whether I'll please everyone and have good "ratings", then I'm less worried about speaking my mind. And, as everyone has said, it'll become a high school popularity contest.
If you must do this, a karma-like system such as Slashdot uses might be a better option. You have a set number of points to give (so you can't just go through rating post after post), and you only earn points by getting karma points on a post. This way some 3l33t l4m3r won't come on the board, say dumb things, and have all his friends uprate him.
Anyway, that's my $0.02, which I feel sure will get all bad ratings or whatever. Try it, but it really sounds like a bad idea for this size of fora.
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nakigara
Location: ca desert
Gender: Male
| |  | Re: User Rating / Voting
<Reply # 62 on 10/2/2003 10:09 AM >
| | | | agreeing with most of the stuff already said about it affecting how people post.
on the other hand, im thinking it wont make much of a difference at all. reading through a bunch of the older threads, especially the ones that spew debates/arguments/flames I get the impression that most of the heavy posters aren't too concerned about what others think of them. Also thinking that the...
?less favored? posters are held in that status becuase of a higher drivel/info ratio.
*shrugs* could be wrong, nothing concrete to back that up, just a general impression.
like most of the others, i agree with useful info over like, might help to discourage people from making positive votes on witty but informationless smart-ass posts.(i find most of those amusing, but dont feel they add much to the information base)
also, Id like it if you went with something other then color, like maybe bigger/smaller stars/x's or something. I have problems with colors- one of those things i failed to learn properly in kindergarten (along with alphabet, months, and that whole right/left bit )
yogurt and beer. mmmm...... |
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ReAct
Location: Northern Jersey... For now.
Gender: Male
| | | Re: User Rating / Voting
<Reply # 63 on 10/2/2003 11:34 AM >
| | | | I'll tell you what, I don't think I'm feeling these ratings. I just noticed them last night, and I'm already finding that immediately after reading a post, I look at that damned foot-note at the bottom to see what the consensus seems to be on the content of said post. Don't like that one bit.
That is probably much more of a personal issue than it is a matter for this forum, but non-the-less my current standing:
I wouldn't mind seeing those ratings go the way of the Dodo.
-ReAct
"'13.2V...' Thirteen volts. It's thirteen volts? Jesus, I could practically be made of salt water and this wouldn't hurt me."
"That says '13.2kV.'"
"Ohhhh... Thirteen-thousand volts... I suppose that's a little different...." |
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kowalski
| | Re: User Rating / Voting
<Reply # 64 on 10/2/2003 12:16 PM >
|  | | | | Hmm, robbie raises a good point. The purpose of this forum is not to entertain the others, but rather to provide real, useful content / information. |
Really? I thought it was to provide a useful system from which to monitor our progress and output levels and grade us, so that during our end-of-year performance review our administrators would have quantifiable data to back up their 'gut feelings' on how we were doing. Eventually, you'll be able to just plug all this data into another program, and have that program decide whether to suspend/ban us based on our "bad posts"-"good posts"-"posts" ratio. That will give the administrators more time to do other things, like play golf, flirt with their secretaries, and order more flashlights off the web.
The really insidious thing is that it gets the other workers to grade us, rather than leaving that function to the administrators. While the workers will have less time to do their jobs because they'll always be stopping to rate their co-workers, this loss of productive time will be more than offset by the extra impetus they'll have to excel, knowing that everyone else is grading them. It will also reduce worker solidarity and kill, once and for all, the spectre of unionization at this facility. They'll all be too busy competing with each other in real time for the few promotions and trifling awards that are offered to think about cooperating on anything beyond the specific tasks of their mundane jobs.
But maybe I just didn't get the memo that said that this was all about content. Yeah, that must have been it.
----
Just out of curiosity, Av, can you warn us about the next merit-based feature you're going to implement.
For instance, if you were going to add a special voting procedure to the website updates thread, I'd want to know what the distribution was going to be so that I wouldn't weight my explorations too heavily towards technical merit or artistic impression, depending on which you were going to give the most weight to. Often we plan these explorations months in advance, so it's important to know how the judging requirements are going to change in the future. If you're going to be asking for three fence climbs, instead of two, and then a dangerous ledge walk to a free hanging rope rather than a ladder, that's something we all really need to know now so that we can fit it into our programs.
Or maybe you'd add an ordinals system as well, one that would be dynamically recalculated based on other voting for other website update threads that got posted within a week (or whatever arbitrary temporal cutoff) of mine, in which case everything would go out the window and in the end I'd just buy off the French judge with a promise to send her one of Max's ninja hats. The French do love their hats...
[last edit 10/2/2003 12:33 PM by kowalski - edited 2 times]
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Crossfire
 
Location: Kay-Dub
Gender: Male
Don't call it a comeback, I've been here for years.
| |  | |  | Re: User Rating / Voting
<Reply # 65 on 10/2/2003 12:48 PM >
| | | | Posted by punkboy_jerm
It seems to me that this will just turn everyone into a bunch of elitists.
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Instead of just the four or five elitists that are already here? Maybe it will help the health of this community if we all felt we are elite, instead of the current handful who do.
I see a lot of people here who are bitter, sarcastic and whiney about this rating system. As Asher so eloquently put it a few posts back, if you don't like it, don't use it. In a month's time, it will be revisited and the decision will be made as to whether or not it was worth using or not. It's happened before, for instance with the Chatterbox which disappeared a while ago. I think people need to understand that it is not necessarily a permanent addition to the community. It's an experiment.
So, instead of continuing all this bitching and moaning, why don't we just swallow our pride (a big mouthful for some of you, I know) and wait it out? In a month's time, we can all have our say about the rating system and if it should stay or go.
Peace on Earth and good will towards Man and Woman.
C.
Disgruntled. |
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kowalski
| | Re: User Rating / Voting
<Reply # 66 on 10/2/2003 1:15 PM >
| | | | Av,
I said somewhere a few pages ago in this thread that I didn't think that a rating system was wholly useless. I said that it was a good measure of the overall quality of a user's contribution to the board, but asked that it be less visible. I don't know what I was thinking, but it was probably my collective bargaining systems taking over, attempting to conciliate a moderate position.
I really don't know what I was thinking. Shouldn't the best measure of a user's contribution to these forums be the opinion that each one of us personally forms of him or her? Should pseudo-arbitrary numbers really come to replace actual experience as the measure of people's worth in this community? You can argue that we will still have our personal opinions, and to an extent that's true. But that's exactly what you're attempting to short-circuit. I'd suggest you get up from your desk, take a less-comfortable chair over to your window, and think about why you really think we need a rating system here. Is it because we actually have a pressing need to quantify something? Or is it simply that there was something there that could be quantified? Stop thinking like a programmer and start thinking like a human being. Please.
I've always had the view that, when discovering a new electronic community like the one we have here, you should spend at least a month just reading it, not posting anything, before jumping into the fray. I spent several months just watching this place before I first posted, and more recently I've followed that trend at another forum that someone here posted a link to awhile ago. I think that this time is absolutely invaluable to understanding the dynamics of the community before you try to integrate yourself into it, and that jumping in as soon as you find the place is not very respectful to the shared collective experiences that the place is based on. After all, few people are very successful when they try to just jump right into established communities in real life, so why should we think it will be any different online? And when you have spent that month investing your emotional and cognitive energies into the place, you are far more likely to contribute respectfully and consistently to it, rather than treating it with impatience or irrelevance.
Right now you're thinking, "What the hell is he talking about on this crazy tangent of his?" I'm talking about being human, and recognizing what behavioural patterns are human, and which are artificially driven by the systems of rationality that we now surround ourselves with in the modern world. I don't need numbers to tell me which people here, in my opinion, make important contributions to this forum, and I don't need numbers to tell me which people here generally add random but sometimes funny babble and goofiness to this board. I also don't need numbers to tell me when I make a useful post and when I make a stupid one - in fact, 3/4 of the time, I write the stupid post and then hit the back button, rather than actually posting it. Because it wasn't necessary, and I don't need the spectre of downvotes to convince of that - I know it in my heart.
The problem here is that you're trying to replace our hearts and minds with calculators. One, it won't really work, as the people who just post lots of stupid-but-sometimes-funny babble will continue to do so, just like the clowns and troublemakers in grade one continued to act up regardless of the star system (and there, accumulating stars eventually gave you the chance to trade them in for special pencils and ten minutes of break time to go play with this year's batch of baby chicks. Here there's no incentive at all, except for the cold, static love of the anonymous, electronic voting system.).
Why are you implementing this? Well, I can't be in your head as you stand in front of the window (still only conjuring TTC buses - thank goodness), but my guess is that you saw rating systems in action elsewhere and said "oh, cool!" and wrote one up for AvBoard, and envisioned a reason for it somewhere along the way. I don't think you saw it and said "Oh, that will solve all of our problems!" (at least I hope not, because you would have been labouring under a completely mistaken belief) You can't solve interpersonal problems, such as disputes over posting quality (I really wasn't aware we were experiencing some new, horrible influx of bad posters - just a handful of silly high schoolers who wouldn't care one bit about your rating system), with numbers. At the most, and only with very strong numerical systems of control, one can force people into different ways of seeing the world. Maybe that fixes the problem, maybe it creates new problems that are even worse. But what it always does is to force people to be less human. And that is never a good thing.
I respectfully ask you to withdraw this rating feature. If you want to improve posting quality, why don't you assign every new user a mentor from among your administration staff and other enthusiastic and long-present volunteers, who will explain to them the various generally-accepted beliefs and established etiquettes of this community, answer their initial questions and generally give them feedback on their first handful of posts? Wouldn't that be a more effective (and more human) way of treating people and introducing new members to this place, then expecting people to both care and not care - since that seems to be the crux of your defense of the thing - about this post-rating system?
We have critical minds. Let us use them.
[last edit 10/2/2003 1:20 PM by kowalski - edited 1 times]
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Noah Vale
Location: Portland, Or
It's nobler to never get paid, than to bank on shit and dismay
| | | | Re: User Rating / Voting
<Reply # 67 on 10/2/2003 1:22 PM >
| | | | Wow. That was well put, Kowalski. My sentiments exactly...except worded in an intelligent and coherent manner.
"Dallas is a magnificent and wide open city, and I'm deeply envious of any urban explorers who have the good fortune to live there." -Ninj. |
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ReAct
Location: Northern Jersey... For now.
Gender: Male
| | | Re: User Rating / Voting
<Reply # 68 on 10/2/2003 1:52 PM >
| | | | We won't get into the irony of my using a rating system to show my support for a post that condemns that rating system, but that was well-said Kowalski. You managed to articulate some points that I couldn't.
I think my ultimate stand is:
Each of us knows the opinion we form about each post we read. We know if the information is valuable to us, I think that's the only important part. What opinions others have on a post is secondary, at best, if even pertinant at all, since this system doesn't allow for any expansion of thought beyond declaration of the simple fact that you do or do not like something.
If you take issue with something, put it into words and that problem can be addressed, extrapolated, and investigated; giving a Thumbs Up/Down accomplishes nothing.
If the post is moronic, that is aparent without a rating system to prove it. I think the rating system puts a number on something that needn't be quantified. It just adds another dimension to our interactions here, something that could potentially stifle legitimate, free exchange.
I'm relatively new to this site, but as far as using ratings to help reduce the influx of unneccessary posts; that doesn't seem to be a problem that this site is plagued with in the first place.
-ReAct
[last edit 10/2/2003 2:00 PM by ReAct - edited 1 times]
"'13.2V...' Thirteen volts. It's thirteen volts? Jesus, I could practically be made of salt water and this wouldn't hurt me."
"That says '13.2kV.'"
"Ohhhh... Thirteen-thousand volts... I suppose that's a little different...." |
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asdafaf
Location: oe'r yonder
I have always been here before.
| | | Re: User Rating / Voting
<Reply # 69 on 10/2/2003 2:25 PM >
| | | | I wont weigh in on the overall issue (y'all can guess what I think though, I'm sure), other than to say that having this feature makes me feel much more inclined toward posting nonsensical, offensive, or non-sequitur posts all over the board (see recent "poser" and "indie" posts). I've kept myself mostly in check so far, but god knows what might happen to my rating (oh no!) if I end up on here after drinking some whisky ... anyway, I'm thinking this is the opposite of what it was supposed to do.
OK, I lied, I'll talk: I totally hate it. I understand that Av wants to test out his abilities and make his board as option-filled as possible, but this one is a stillborn turkey. People should make up their minds on the merits of posts and posters on their own. I resent the notion that there is any need for anyone to know what everyone else thinks. Then again, if the voting system stays, I'm not going to cry or anything ... it's not the end of the world, or the death of this board's appeal.
I'm going to start a bunch of dummy accounts just to vote my enemies into the ground and build up my ratings! Soon I will have god-like powers, and I'll eventually get rich by selling my screen name/rating on E-bay to the highest bidder.
Yup.
I'm looking for software engineers to hire at Amazon. |
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Avatar-X
Alpha Husky
Location: West Coast
Gender: Male
yay!
| | | Re: User Rating / Voting
<Reply # 70 on 10/2/2003 2:42 PM >
| | | | Alright, as I've already said about 6 times, we are going to test out this system for 1 month. No harm can come from it, because with a few changes to code, I can permanently remove it.
No, the making of this system is not solely because i thought it was "cool" or whatever. I've been receiving complaints lately from various administrators about the quality of the posting on this forum... complaints about useless, off-topic posts choking the regular ones, complaints about silly fights and stupid threads that have no purpose except to insult someone or something.
A rating system was suggested several months ago, and recent discussions with moderators have prompted me to implement one.
For those of you who don't like it: The rating system is not mandatory. You don't need to look at the stars or click the yes / no buttons. You can ignore your own rating.
Max: Being an asshole and posting shit will get you banned, just like if anyone else had done it. Registering more user accounts and fucking around is in violation of the user agreement. Grow up.
Tunnelrat: Wake up, there's already a Rating display on the threads page.
Kowalski: Maybe your posts would be more meaningful if you didn't post entire messages which are completly sarcastic. Bitching at me for MY motivation for coding it is retarded : I may have coded it, but it wasn't solely my idea.
Now, i'd like us to stop posting negative shit. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. There's already been 626 votes, and it's been less than 24 hours. Let's give it a try.
huskies - such fluff. |
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asdafaf
Location: oe'r yonder
I have always been here before.
| | | Re: User Rating / Voting
<Reply # 71 on 10/2/2003 3:04 PM >
| | | | You sure are cranky for a hippie, Av.
I'm looking for software engineers to hire at Amazon. |
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Avatar-X
Alpha Husky
Location: West Coast
Gender: Male
yay!
| | | Re: User Rating / Voting
<Reply # 72 on 10/2/2003 3:13 PM >
| | | | I'm sick of all this bitching. Bitching solves nothing. It's easy to bitch. How about coming up with real solutions instead of posting shit, like what you just posted, Max?
huskies - such fluff. |
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ReAct
Location: Northern Jersey... For now.
Gender: Male
| | | Re: User Rating / Voting
<Reply # 73 on 10/2/2003 3:19 PM >
| | | | Avatar,
I know this forum is your baby, and I can appreciate that, I think we're all indebted to the folks that work to provide it. It's quality stuff, but opinions are opinions, whether positive or negative they should be aired. Try not to take it personally, I don't think people intend it that way. Any like or dislike seems to be for the concept of the voting system and shouldn't necessarily reflect on the amount of work or thought you put into creating it.
Nothing I said about the voting system is intended to be a dig at you. And while I can't speak absolutely for anyone but myself, that probably applies to other folks just the same.
Take a deep breath.
-ReAct
"'13.2V...' Thirteen volts. It's thirteen volts? Jesus, I could practically be made of salt water and this wouldn't hurt me."
"That says '13.2kV.'"
"Ohhhh... Thirteen-thousand volts... I suppose that's a little different...." |
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asdafaf
Location: oe'r yonder
I have always been here before.
| | | Re: User Rating / Voting
<Reply # 74 on 10/2/2003 4:03 PM >
| | | | Posted by ReAct
opinions are opinions, whether positive or negative they should be aired.
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No no no. See, anybody with positive feedback is welcome to post several times to that effect: however, if you have anything negative to say at all, no matter how lightly or repsectfully you put it, you are a bitching bitchy bitch, and will be shrieked at accordingly. heh
Anyway, Av - I'd be happy to help come up with solutions. I'm just not sure what the hell the problem is. I didn't see a problem that this rating system can be expected to address, so the only problem I see is the rating system itself, and the fact that no one seems to like it. The "real solution" I suggest to address this problem is that this new feature be removed ... while at the same time acknowledging that it is not really a big deal, and that it is your board to do what you want with.
How's that?
I'm looking for software engineers to hire at Amazon. |
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Detroit
Moderator
Location: Ottawa /Gatineau /Montreal
Gender: Male
4-aminophenol and 2-5% potassium hydroxide
| |  | | Re: User Rating / Voting
<Reply # 75 on 10/2/2003 4:07 PM >
| | | | AV... I tend to side with ReAct... this forum is a fantastic creation, your fantastic creation. However it seems like you are trying to maintain too much control over the discussions that are taking place.
I can understand your concern and unhappiness over "stupid posts" but sometimes it IS the small comments that make some threads interesting. Some small comments prompt other, more worthwhile and informative comments.
This forum is frequented by a very wide and diverse audience. Not everyone thinks, talks, and writes the same way.
As I see it, as long as threads don't descend into post after post of ridiculous stupidity, a few lame posts here and there don't change anything. If there is a problem in a thread then the moderators should be about to put it back on topic or close the thread. That is what mods are for isn’t it?
Why are you trying to create an online community with a negative, unfriendly atmosphere? ( If you are not then it sure looks that way)
Isn't the whole point of this forum to promote discussion?
Just because you, "the creator" of the forum do not like something that is posted does not mean that it is worthless or lacking merit. If that is the position you prefer to take then should not be surprised if people stop frequenting the forum and find other less "over" moderated places to meet online. (The reason I mention this is because I love this place and I would like it to stay a healthy and vibrant meeting place)
You have stated that you think the rating system will eliminate stupid posts. I disagree. If anything it may eliminate free and open discussion. Someone who for whatever reason ends up with a fairly negative rating may just stop coming. Wow you won!!! They are gone… but so are their thought and comments, some of which most surely were worthwhile.
Besides… don’t you already ban complete idiots?
I think that you should rethink your position and take a slightly less aggressive approach to dealing with others on the forum.
Other people have tried to mention this before in less direct ways but I will come out and say it.
We are not little children that need to have our thoughts and comments neutered.
You might be the creator here, but you are not God.
The end of the beginning is the beginning of the end. |
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: User Rating / Voting
<Reply # 76 on 10/2/2003 4:22 PM >
|  | | | The thing I don't quite understand here is why does it make such a big deal to some peope ? I remember when the board was filled with people that, get this... explored and talked about exploring. Now so many posts are so irrelevant it seems. Is it such a bad thing for something to cause some of us to take a look at whats being posted and what we ourselves are posting ? If I look at ratings on my posts, and nobody is liking or finding them useful, then it makes me think a bit more about my next post. I don't see that as a bad thing. Does it bother you so much to see what the general concensus is on what you post ?
But, this is just a test. I don't think less than 24 hours is a very good barometer of the effectiveness of something like this.
What the hell is the problem in just seeing how it goes ?
Did it give you a rash ?
Has it caused impotence ?
Male pattern baldness ?
Jeez... if you don't want to vote, don't. If you do want to vote, then vote.
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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Detroit
Moderator
Location: Ottawa /Gatineau /Montreal
Gender: Male
4-aminophenol and 2-5% potassium hydroxide
| | | | Re: User Rating / Voting
<Reply # 77 on 10/2/2003 4:29 PM >
| | | | Actually, I don't really care one way or another what people think of my posts. I am just standing up for the people who may be victimized by such a blatantly judgemental and discriminatory system.
I like to hear what everyone has to say, good or bad. Not just the people who post eloquent or exceptionally interesting posts.
The end of the beginning is the beginning of the end. |
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Avatar-X
Alpha Husky
Location: West Coast
Gender: Male
yay!
| | | Re: User Rating / Voting
<Reply # 78 on 10/2/2003 4:55 PM >
| | | | I don't think people have been reading:
posted by detroit:
AV... I tend to side with ReAct... this forum is a fantastic creation, your fantastic creation. However it seems like you are trying to maintain too much control over the discussions that are taking place.
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I'm not trying to control it at all. I don't mind the occaisional stupid post, if it has totally no place, I delete it. I created the rating system based on complaints from the moderators of this forum, people like Asher and Ninj. They complained about the quality of the posts.
Why are you trying to create an online community with a negative, unfriendly atmosphere? ( If you are not then it sure looks that way) |
I'm not. I'm trying to create one where people feel welcome and friendly, where people don't start threads solely to insult a person / group, where the quality of the posts is high.
posted by ReAct
but opinions are opinions, whether positive or negative they should be aired. Try not to take it personally, I don't think people intend it that way.
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Maybe you need to re-read some of the posts. Kowalski takes some pretty direct attacks on me, as well as Detroit and Max Action. I do not appreciate being blamed for coding something that I was asked to code.
posted by max action
No no no. See, anybody with positive feedback is welcome to post several times to that effect: however, if you have anything negative to say at all, no matter how lightly or repsectfully you put it, you are a bitching bitchy bitch, and will be shrieked at accordingly. heh
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You've yet to post anything of use in this thread, Max. Kindly stop fucking around. Your attitude is not appreciated.
You sure are cranky for a hippie, Av.
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I'm not a hippie.
everything jester said in his last post
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Thank you jester, this is getting ridiculous.
[last edit 10/2/2003 4:57 PM by Avatar-X - edited 1 times]
huskies - such fluff. |
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MacGyver
Location: St Paul, Minnesota
Gender: Male
"Someone go find me a paperclip, a D-cell battery, and a cheese grater"
| | Re: User Rating / Voting
<Reply # 79 on 10/2/2003 5:17 PM >
| | | | Alright, how's this: I think you guys are looking at this the wrong way. Instead of using the rating as a way of rating if the post contained well punctuated correct useful information, just use it to determine if the post fits into one of three categories:
"yes" translation: The post was enjoyable and added to the discussion at hand. Enen if it was negative or "bitchy", it added something that was useful and would have otherwise not have been brought up. Use this if you think the poster did a good job providing information, adding to an arguement, countering an arguement, complaining about someone/thing for a reason, etc. Basically, if it was a good post, click yes.
"no" translation: The post really didn't have any purpose to the discusion at hand. It was either random nonsense that nobody cares about or totally wrong and misguided. This is for posts like "hey i tihnk nissons r fast" in the middle of a thread about headlamps. The no vote is mainly for posts that don't belong, are full of racism, excessive profanity, totally and utterly worthless comments (even if on-topic) etc.
(unvoted) translation: Either you are too lazy or don't care to vote in general, or you thought the post was productive/warranted/not-too-shabby but not to any extreme. It certainly wasn't offensive and you didn't mind reading it, but it's nothing spectacuar. Not voting is a completely legitemate response. It doesn't change the user's rating, so it is almost as if the post didn't occur.
These definitions aren't all-encompassing and I'm not a literary guru. If anyone can describe the idea that I'm trying to explain better, give it a shot.
Mainly, it's less about the post being informative or "liked" and more about if it belonged or was useless crap. I hope this helps ease tensions a bit.
Like a fiend with his dope / a drunkard his wine / a man will have lust for the lure of the mine
"If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent." |
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