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 kowalski
   
 |  | Re: The Inevitable Grafitti Morals Question Post
<Reply # 20 on 9/15/2003 4:03 AM >
|  | | | | For example, you come out of a tunnel into a pitch black room with four identical walls each with four indentical tunnel entrances including the one you came out of. Upon further inspection you notice each entrance features ornate brick work that is slightly different then the rest and you decide to take a short walk up and down each of them but when you come to the forth you walk right into the wall and realise you just tried to step through a mural. |
Is this real, or fictional?
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nominal
Location: Grimsby
Gender: Male
| | Re: The Inevitable Grafitti Morals Question Post
<Reply # 21 on 9/15/2003 4:18 AM >
| | | | Fictional, I just made that up to illustrate the point that disscovering a piece of art in a place can make the experience better as long as the work as a sense of connectedness to that place.
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uem-Tux
 
Iron Wok Jan
Location: Montreal
Gender: Male
UE Geek
| |  |  | Re: The Inevitable Grafitti Morals Question Post
<Reply # 22 on 9/15/2003 4:46 AM >
|  | | | I just wanna say, I don't mind if the artist wants to write his name as a piece, I don't have a problem with that as long as it looks decent. I just don't like unreadable scribbly little tags.
Urban Exploration Montreal
Why are you the way that you are? |
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The Hitman's Daughter
  
Account Closed
Location: ottawa, canada
Gender: Female
hot pavement.
| | | Re: The Inevitable Grafitti Morals Question Post
<Reply # 23 on 9/15/2003 4:51 AM >
|  | | | SPEK: you were pointing out that your "SPEK" was tagged on... but.... it looks to me as though your "SPEK" is painted over someone else's thing.
richellesart.com
From now on and until the end of time, "Hip To Be Square" will conjure images of bloody bodies being hacked apart with axes.
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: The Inevitable Grafitti Morals Question Post
<Reply # 24 on 9/15/2003 4:53 AM >
|  | | | Grafitti ruining someone's grafitti ruining someone's view of the place as it was to begin with... how ironic.
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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The Hitman's Daughter
Account Closed
Location: ottawa, canada
Gender: Female
hot pavement.
| | | Re: The Inevitable Grafitti Morals Question Post
<Reply # 25 on 9/15/2003 4:55 AM >
| | | | personally, i love watching graf pieces flash by on passing cargo trains. there's just something awesome about that.
richellesart.com
From now on and until the end of time, "Hip To Be Square" will conjure images of bloody bodies being hacked apart with axes.
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SPEK Photo
Location: Where you were not.
"Chere cachère!"
| | | Re: The Inevitable Grafitti Morals Question Post
<Reply # 26 on 9/15/2003 5:43 AM >
| | | | Posted by The Hitman's Daughter
SPEK: you were pointing out that your "SPEK" was tagged on... but.... it looks to me as though your "SPEK" is painted over someone else's thing.
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Yes, it was an crappy throw-up that was there for a long time.
I have tons of graf train pictures, but few of my own. I used to go drink beer/smoke spliff along the track and take picture of the passing-by trains. I even end up with a real nice spot to chill on a small rooftop.
Here is a wall that used to be covered by tags. The owner said that it was ok to make something nice of it, and ta-da!
[last edit 9/15/2003 12:53 AM by SPEK Photo - edited 2 times]
Pour fins d'archives.
WWW.EXPLORATIONURBAINE.CA |
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ohno
| | Re: The Inevitable Grafitti Morals Question Post
<Reply # 27 on 10/16/2003 11:45 PM >
| | | | if you dont wanna read all this at least read the "bottom line"
99 times out of 100 its "vandalism", however
its also an artistic subculture...
different pieces represent different things (of course)
scribbled signatures are done to "get-up". the idea is to get your name in as many places as possible, so therefore eventually people will start recognizing it in more places. full tag pieces are harder worked on... think about the form , color selection, design time put into these works and then your risking getting busted putting it up. as far as where to tag i think spek covered that. surfaces have different value, mailboxes/phonebooths are for "bombs"(-these are the scribble tags), and as far as walls go they are the most common surface to find. however, billboards, abandoned large buildings and of course trains are more valuable because more people will notice it. and to the issue of someone going over anothers work... that is a sign of disrespect and because of the fact that most use alias names it actually can turn into an underground war. with both people finding each others work and going over it. if your talking about the work in general then you have to take ever piece seperatly. i mean i dont like every piece of artwork i see. just to get you in the know "writers" are turning toward stickers and stencils as of recently, because with so many people writing its hard to induavidualize. and theres always way to many people copying the same style.
BOTTOM LINE-its a sub-culture, which if your not involved in your gonna have a hard time understanding. we have ethics, and general rules. a lot just do it to vandalize, and some do it to create a new landscape in a more visionary sense. grafitti was started by kids in the ghettos listening to hip-hop(which in its self is very positive and conscious... not to be confused with rap!). they racked(stole) paint and tips and made their own paint markers. and this was their form of expression. it died down in the early 80's then came back and now is stronger than ever. now because of the internet its expanding, you can find all kinds of sites, but ill list a few that i find to be better than most below. once again unless you really look into the topic, youll only have a hazy understanding with what ive given you.
check these sites
artcrimes.com <- lists work from all over the world (interviews, images, history
futura2000.com <-historical NYC writer, has had works in galleries all over the
world, and works from more of a design basis, i think he turned
45 this year, youll have to look on artcrimes to see most of his
paintings
other artist:
doze green
zephyr
dondi
peace
ohno
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Control
Location: NYC, All day every day.
Because it's expected
| | | Re: The Inevitable Grafitti Morals Question Post
<Reply # 28 on 10/18/2003 1:26 AM >
| | | | Graf is it's own thing and unless your in it as ohno says, you won't really get it. Lots of writers seek out old fucked up places to do their thing with less chance of arrest, or just to practice their styles.
Some principals are the same though. years ago, I might use a spray can to mark where I had been. Somewhere along the line though I realized most folks I knew would never see it or these places, so I started taking photos... I get the same 'look where i was' effect, except it's documented for others to see, and of course, being a bit older, it's a lot easier to talk my way out of a jam by being able to show that I'm just taking photos. You can't really do that as easily if your caught painting a wall.
On a different level, whenever i'm asked who i think to be the most persistant NYC subway explorer, I say folks like Smith, or Revs. No matter what part of the system you go to, they've been there. I once busted into an abandoned portion of a station that no one else I know of has even heard of - and there on the wall was a very very old school smith and sane tag. With very rare exception have I not seen his signature on a subway tunnel wall. I might know a few nooks and corners that no writer I know of has been to, but I have to give props to some of them graf cats for their persistance and dedication. An example would be the 60th street tube (a tight cross river tunnel where trains go at top speed, without any spaces to hide or an abundance of exits), smith and bruz did that place up lovely in the early 90's, tagging under each and every florecent light along the way. How they didn't get caught is slightly beyond me (must have had MTA outfits on, as there's no way not to be seen by a train down there, unless you squeeze yourself behind a signal box or something). Personally, I think most explorers (at least in these parts) would piss in their pants, get themselves killed or caught trying to pul that stunt off (not to say that no graf guys got killed in tunnels, as one of my boys did back in 91'. 16 and in his prime. It ain't no playground down there...).
The Zoo York Goon Squad.
If it looks good, Loot it. |
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SPEK Photo
Location: Where you were not.
"Chere cachère!"
| | | Re: The Inevitable Grafitti Morals Question Post
<Reply # 29 on 10/18/2003 2:16 AM >
| | | | COS & REVS.... those two NYC guys inspired too much in Montreal.
Now all accessible downtown rooftops are rollerpainted by some fans of those two.
Even the best UE place where rollerpainted.
Malting plant 1996....
and now...
just also as the O'keef/Dow brewey building downtown
http://uer.ca/locations/viewgal.asp?picid=13479
[last edit 10/18/2003 4:09 AM by SPEK Photo - edited 1 times]
Pour fins d'archives.
WWW.EXPLORATIONURBAINE.CA |
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Titch
Location: Belgium-Liege (Europe)
Gender: Male
Member of Green Explorers
| | | Re: The Inevitable Grafitti Morals Question Post
<Reply # 30 on 10/18/2003 10:27 AM >
| | | | I don't like at all graffiti and tags.
It only pollute my view!! When I want to take a good picture and I see a graff , I switch off my camera.
If you are real urban explorers, you will only take pictures and let footprints on the ground.
You will never touch, destroy or paint anything!!
Just leave the place as it was before your coming.With that way of thinking, all other explorers will enjoy the place in it's original 'state'.
If everybody start painting everywhere, you will see the results after a few monthes.....the building or factory will loose its soul....
Whe, the green explorers, when exploring a place, if we catch someone which is painting an old or beautiful exploring place, we will run like blazes after him! He will have better not to meet us.
Green Explorers are recruitings new members.
Ask more details to Titch |
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stealthy
You got a problem bro?
| | Re: The Inevitable Grafitti Morals Question Post
<Reply # 31 on 10/18/2003 5:23 PM >
| | | | Posted by titch
Whe, the green explorers, when exploring a place, if we catch someone which is painting an old or beautiful exploring place, we will run like blazes after him! He will have better not to meet us.
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I don't think that running after him/her will make too much of a difference. It will only make them more determined to go back --- they have to finish their work, don't they? As for whether or not I like graffiti, it really depends on the type. If it is extremly tasteless, just thrown up to mark a presence, then get rid of it. But, however, if it has some taste/class to it, it's alright with me. My teacher's brother in law does tasteful graffiti, and one time a mural of his was so good that a folder company (i think mead) took a picture of it and threw it on a few thousand folders. Of course he couldn't get money because he would have gotten arrested for it.
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Rockman
Noble Donor
| | Re: The Inevitable Grafitti Morals Question Post
<Reply # 32 on 10/18/2003 7:20 PM >
| | | | As for graffiti artists - more power to them. Especially the ones that do murals and such, as they really can add to an urban landscape. Graffiti is one of the last vestiges of truely free artistic expression - no overpriced art supplies, art colleges or galleries telling you what is "good art" - ya do it yourself and decorate the city. Tags are cool in some places, like bathroom walls or signal boxes which would otherwise be dead and grey, but they don't belong everywhere. There's a lot of other stuff, too, like political slogans, quotes, poems and such that haven't been mentioned here but can really brighten up the day if they're done right. I know some of it sucks, but you're gonna get that everywhere whether you're painting canvas, painting a wall or even playing football. Ya gotta take the bad with the good sometimes.
As for UE, I've definitely come across places where explorers leave their marks, like the inside of the bell in the old Eaton Center in downtown hamilton, accross from Lister Block. And that's cool. We've occasionally left messages, which lead into eachother so that one has to go up on rooftops all over the city to find them, but they're always tasteful and never what I'd consider vandalism. I love to see artistic pieces in a lot of the places I go, so if I'm gonna run into a beautiful piece in the sub-basement of a warehouse somewhere, that often just adds to the post-apocalyptic urban feel. But if you're just gonna randomly paint stuff up (ususally the same guys who make it a point to smash out every piece of glass in a whole fucking building), then just save yourself the time and fuck off.
Still, I'm not gonna stop people from doing what they want, unless they're being violent or destructive. If I come across a guy painting, then I'm gonna let him be, or even start up a conversation. I'm only gonna chase 'em out with my maglight (or worse) if I see people doing serious structural damage, or putting us all at risk of arrest. These buildings belong to everyone, so we all have to be respectful of them, and eachother.
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Control
Location: NYC, All day every day.
Because it's expected
| | | Re: The Inevitable Grafitti Morals Question Post
<Reply # 33 on 10/20/2003 4:17 AM >
| | | | Posted by titch
If you are real urban explorers, you will only take pictures and let footprints on the ground.
You will never touch, destroy or paint anything!!
Just leave the place as it was before your coming.With that way of thinking, all other explorers will enjoy the place in it's original 'state'.
Whe, the green explorers, when exploring a place, if we catch someone which is painting an old or beautiful exploring place, we will run like blazes after him! He will have better not to meet us.
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Hmm...
I'm not sure what graffiti artists are like in the rest of the world, but the ones I ran with were heavily into committing other crimes (as was I, actually). If you think for a second any such hardcore graf writer would be scared and actually run from an explorer, you're unfortunately mistaken. If, back when I was the brash naive bastard that I was when I was writing, I was told to stop painting in an abandoned location by someone who obviously had as little business being there as I did, I'd knock them out and take all their shit. Money, flashlights, whatever they had on them. And that would be being nice about it. I know people who'd just shoot or stab you dead on the spot. Not that that's a method that I agree with, but for a lot of writers back then, the more crimes you committed, the harder your rep -- the harder your rep, the more respect on the street you'd get, and the less likely it would be that some other would paint over your work. Graf is just part of the game. Beating people up, stealing cars, selling drugs, these were/are still parts of the game.
Numbers don't matter either. A hardcore streetwise dirtbag will not back down to 2 or even 10 of you. I've seen a scant 3 guys face off with a mob of 15 that had beef with them and come away without a scratch and a lot more respect for it. (heh, they will run though if they see 50 or so bat and chain carrying freaks coming after them with full intent to f shit up. My god those were some fun times!!!)
Also, you say real explorers never mess a place up. While that might be true, most graf writers don't consider themselves explorers and don't much give a f--- what anyone else thinks.
Hope I don't come off to rough, I'm just tryin' to shed a little light from the other side of the coin. If you see someone screwing up some place that you care about, go call a cop from a pay phone (don't leave your name, and don't brag about it later if someone gets arrested - it might come back to haunt you years down the road, trust me). They get paid to handle such people, you don't. They are trained and equipped to handle such people, and chances are, you are not (unless you're a cop that explores, whcih is a whole other thing). Don't go trying to play hero cuz doing so mught get you killed -- and getting yourself killed in an abandoned place over something like that is a pretty crap way to go. Who knows how long it'd be until someone found your remains...
In life a good rule to follow is this: saying hello to (or in this case, running into) someone can be the most dangerous thing you can do - as you have absolutely no idea anything about that person, where they've been, what they've done, what, if any moral values they hold, etc. 9 times out of 10 everything is great, but there's some real sick bastards out there. As someone trying hard to be a reformed/retired member of that club, I'd advise anyone to avoid such folks.
The Zoo York Goon Squad.
If it looks good, Loot it. |
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Titch
Location: Belgium-Liege (Europe)
Gender: Male
Member of Green Explorers
| | | Re: The Inevitable Grafitti Morals Question Post
<Reply # 34 on 10/20/2003 8:51 PM >
| | | | I don't agree with you Control.
Perhaps it's true what you are saying, but only in the USA I think or hope!
In Europe, especially in Belgium, things are not working in that way!
First, the cops will never come or purchase men exploring old mines, quarries, hospitals......
They have to play with other stuff.
Secondly, people don't kill or injure someone else in our area.(when exploring)
And generally they have some respect or fear of well organised urban explorers.
And if a problem occurs, we have our self defense weapons.
And myself as former soldier, I've learned some techs to handle critical situations.
I'm not saying that we are above everybody (not as you), we just dilsike people doing wrong things in wrong places;
They are so many other places to paint instead of vandalizing so beautiful old places!
Green Explorers are recruitings new members.
Ask more details to Titch |
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Control
Location: NYC, All day every day.
Because it's expected
| | | Re: The Inevitable Grafitti Morals Question Post
<Reply # 35 on 10/21/2003 2:18 AM >
| | | | Hey now, I agree places that are in great shape shouldn't be screwed with, and I'm certainly not trying to suggest you or any other explorer isn't capable of self defense. I just don't want to see anyone get into trouble or worse when it could be avoided. Most writers I know won't run or be even the mildest bit intimidated... If your going to step up to someone like that, be ready to back it up, that's all.
The Zoo York Goon Squad.
If it looks good, Loot it. |
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